Red Sea NO3:POX4X Real Time Review.

[dacianb]

This is a graph I tried to keep at that time with NO3 drop. I started the log when NO3 was already at 25 and stopped upgrading it few weeks later, but just to show how massive NO3 drop happens in weeks.
Quite a big skimmer worked hard those first weeks and pulled out tons of junk

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Actually RS recommend this in their manual. Even for Coral coloration (low nutrient system) - they said if NO3 goes under 0.25 to reduce the dosing until back to 0.25.

Yes, it is the general recommendation for organic carbon dosing of all types to back off on the dose when nitrate gets quite low.

 

[FFFishy]

Just an update on how my use with nopox worked for me so far after a month of dosing I went from no3 4ppm to no3 0ppm I am now cutting back dosing from 20ml a day to 15ml a day to slowly bring no3 back up to .05ppm it took a month on an auto doser to start working but it worked I really could have just reduced it quicker by water changes but I wanted to see if I could dose the tank with a reducer to see if I could cut back some of those water changes and for me I think I can go to a once every two months water change and keep my dosing the nopox and my cal,all,mag. So all in all worked for me. It I think dosing it made it easier for me.

Anthony,
With respect to your auto-doser, what equipment are you using ? What sort of container do you have the NoPox sitting in ? Is it almost air-tight ? I've been auto-dosing NoPox for 14 days with Apex's DOS. The tubing has turned a solid white color, but the NoPox still flows. Apex clearly stated to NOT put chemicals like NoPox in their DDR Containers. So, I'm feeding the NoPox directly from the original bottle. I dropped the tube into the bottle and closed-up the bottle with a wad of filter felt. After 10 days, I realized that I lost more NoPox to evaporation than I had actually dosed. For the record, I'm dosing 12ml daily into 140Gal of total water volume. NoPox reduced my Nitrates from 16 to 3 over the first 7 days. I've been stuck at 3 for 7 days now. I have a serious GHA issue at this point which I'll be manually removing tomorrow.
---Frank

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Anthony,
With respect to your auto-doser, what equipment are you using ? What sort of container do you have the NoPox sitting in ? Is it almost air-tight ? I've been auto-dosing NoPox for 14 days with Apex's DOS. The tubing has turned a solid white color, but the NoPox still flows. Apex clearly stated to NOT put chemicals like NoPox in their DDR Containers. So, I'm feeding the NoPox directly from the original bottle. I dropped the tube into the bottle and closed-up the bottle with a wad of filter felt.

FWIW, solutions with high organic content often turn tubing white by extracting the plasticizers that made it clear in the first place. I've had that happen with vinegar in my dosing system.

 

[Anthony christian]

I am dosing with a bubble magnus doser and my tubing has turned white also. But as you said it still flows fine. As the container I left it in original bottle I took the cap off got a rubber gromit and drilled the cap with a 3/8 dril bit placed the rubber gromit in the hole I drilled and pushed the tubing through the hole that gave it an air tight seal I only did this to prevent a spill under my stad as I have a cat that loves to go under the stand lol. I have to cat proof everything.

 

[FFFishy]

Thanks Anthony. Nice idea with the "drilled cap". I'll implement that tomorrow.

 

[Fishpalace]

Dacian I fully believe the nutrient control aspect of npx you mentioned on your tank worked to create that balance. It can be tricky to copy that across tanks, walking the line of starving algae and not corals, but when it works it's golden. You are describing a nice balance and tune for your tank and that's a possible outcome for several nutrient control systems like algae scrubbers, good results from carbon dosing or pellet/reactor systems etc

Much of my cleaning and direct access practice comes from having a small tank easily accessed and taken apart to clean as needed, it's understandable for larger tanks how a greater demand for controls via the water keeps the tank enjoyable so it's not worked on as much.

At least if someone reading still has algae issues after their nutrient controls were in place already we've added another set of control options so they don't feel the need to only do more water stripping, good to add options

I use reef energy for that reason to compliment no pox and happy with both coral growth and color ( although I do use Red Sea color programme too). Must admit to not running tank without reef energy so might make no difference but happy with results of using all 3.

Paul

 

[petemichelle]

i have run red sea NOPOX for about 3 years now. first a year or so in my 29 gal biocube then in my 150 gal display. I have always first tried to do it without a GFO reactor but no matter how long I waited for the NOPOX to kick in and do its thing, I always ended up getting a reactor. the NOPOX always brings the nitrates down fast, but the phosphates never really go away to a decent level, and a decent level meaning less than .08, without the GFO. I like to keep it .04 -.02. nitrate I like to keep less than 5. yes it clogs up the filter socks faster. the more you dose, the faster it clogs them up, same with the glass cleaning. that's how the stuff works, it congeals the nitrates and phosphates up and the skimmer skims it out. got to have a good skimmer going all the time. my big issue is the last months it has started causing cyano. first it shows up on the overflow box plastic, then on the glass and rocks. not really on the sand too much. anyway, I hit it with chemi clean and physically remove it. stopped the dosing, and let it go for a little while, but as soon as I put the dosing back on, it shows up again. I just finished cleaning and dosing chemi clean again, 3rd go around, and I'm going to start work on my sump, and put cheato back in it and stop the NOPOX to see what happens. what a shame, because I really liked the stuff, and it was so stable for me for a few years. just for some reason it just started with this cyano reaction and I can't get it to stop. I have plenty of oversized skimming. I have a CV240 with a Danner 18 on it. I have 3 mp 40 for circulation. the only thing that has changed is that my tank is fuller with corals.

oh the one thing you might look out for, is that because the dosing is only 10-15 ml per day, it takes a while to go through a large 1000 ml bottle, so don't add it to your dosing container all at once, and rinse out that last little bit when it starts to discolor when you swirl it around. I think that it has to do with evaporation, and so the last little bit changes. also use silicone hosing or marine depot has this special hosing that doesn't break down as much. my dosing hoses were changing color and looking funny when I was using the vinyl that came with it. especially the pick up side that would sit inside the dosing container.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for the input, petemichelle.

I would just clarify this statement

"that's how the stuff works, it congeals the nitrates and phosphates up and the skimmer skims it out."

It works by driving bacterial growth. That's is that congealed stuff you see. Cyanobacteria is another species of bacteria, so unfortunately, it can be a result of organic carbon dosing.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

and that's why I summoned your presence, bro. so, you DON'T think spot treatments are the way to go here? would spot tretments combined w/ regular rock cleaning, and a nutrient binder media be a better multi-faceted approach?

I thought you left?

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Manual removal first, nutrient export second, better husbandry third, followed by nutrient control last... of course... IMO (BTW NoPoX falls inline w/ nutrient control)

Though I agree, carbon dosing is not a Band-Aid. It happens in the ocean all the time.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

i have run red sea NOPOX for about 3 years now. first a year or so in my 29 gal biocube then in my 150 gal display. I have always first tried to do it without a GFO reactor but no matter how long I waited for the NOPOX to kick in and do its thing, I always ended up getting a reactor. the NOPOX always brings the nitrates down fast, but the phosphates never really go away to a decent level, and a decent level meaning less than .08, without the GFO. I like to keep it .04 -.02. nitrate I like to keep less than 5. yes it clogs up the filter socks faster. the more you dose, the faster it clogs them up, same with the glass cleaning. that's how the stuff works, it congeals the nitrates and phosphates up and the skimmer skims it out. got to have a good skimmer going all the time. my big issue is the last months it has started causing cyano. first it shows up on the overflow box plastic, then on the glass and rocks. not really on the sand too much. anyway, I hit it with chemi clean and physically remove it. stopped the dosing, and let it go for a little while, but as soon as I put the dosing back on, it shows up again. I just finished cleaning and dosing chemi clean again, 3rd go around, and I'm going to start work on my sump, and put cheato back in it and stop the NOPOX to see what happens. what a shame, because I really liked the stuff, and it was so stable for me for a few years. just for some reason it just started with this cyano reaction and I can't get it to stop. I have plenty of oversized skimming. I have a CV240 with a Danner 18 on it. I have 3 mp 40 for circulation. the only thing that has changed is that my tank is fuller with corals.

oh the one thing you might look out for, is that because the dosing is only 10-15 ml per day, it takes a while to go through a large 1000 ml bottle, so don't add it to your dosing container all at once, and rinse out that last little bit when it starts to discolor when you swirl it around. I think that it has to do with evaporation, and so the last little bit changes. also use silicone hosing or marine depot has this special hosing that doesn't break down as much. my dosing hoses were changing color and looking funny when I was using the vinyl that came with it. especially the pick up side that would sit inside the dosing container.

Did you ever use Reef Energy with it? I noticed what you're referring to, but as soon as I started to increase nitrates via Reef Energy, everything worked.. I felt kind of stupid trying to only use 1 part of their "system".. I think they really do need to emphasize you need to use RE with Nopox.. heh

I think this is one reason even some people run GFO with vinegar. The tanks lacks sufficient nitrate input.

 

[Rybren]

Though I agree, carbon dosing is not a Band-Aid. It happens in the ocean all the time.

I've never heard this before. Do you have any links?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've never heard this before. Do you have any links?

Some proponents of other methods such as ATS, like to claim that organic carbon dosing is unnatural, but that isn't the case.

The metabolism of organics in the ocean and sediments by bacteria and other organisms is very well known by scientists.

Acetate, the main component in vinegar and the second largest component of NOPOX is one of the most common dissolved organic compound in the ocean, at least in terms of the daily consumption.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.4319/lo.2002.47.4.1119/pdf

"High acetate uptake in the surface oxic layer suggests that acetate cycling may be an important component of organic carbon oxidation in oxic environments as well as under anoxic conditions. Depth integrated acetate uptake rates were correlated with the rates of organic carbon supply in the two zones (r2 5 0.37, P 5 0.017). Comparisons of acetate oxidation rates with rates of primary production, chemoautotrophic production, and POC flux show that, on average, acetate oxidation can account for respiration of between 16 and 46% of the organic carbon fixed in the water column."

 

[biom]

Experiment ended unexpectedly soon . Just coming from lab - phosphates reach 0.61 ppm!!! nitrates 5 ppm and the front glass is covered by brown green algae and cyano become worst, everything else is ok. I switched back to diy Nopox, hope system will stabilize soon. May be system needs more time, but it looks risky to me to continue, since phosphates rose more than 50 times in less than 5 days.

Thank you Randy for the link provided, very interesting discussion. Yes, I expected that acetate will be a little bit less "potent" than ethanol, but i did not expected such a big difference in such a short period, the difference is so big that I suspect that vinegar dosing provoked faster decomposition of detritus thus leading to very fast raising of phosphates and to lesser content of nitrates. I don't believe phosphates could rise 50 times in 5 days only because feeding. Very interesting case indeed I'm really sorry I have to end experiment but I'm entering hospital tomorrow, and dont want to leave the experiment unsupervised.

Still in the hospital but managed to test phosphates, 6 days after switching back to diy nopx, and ... less than 0.003ppm PO4 (actually below LOD of Merck Spectrophotometer). I don't believe it is testing error - two test were done, and no transfer vessels are used to avoid contamination. Cyano is greatly reduced to less than 20% , water and glass are crystal clear and Ca, Alk consumption raised with 30%. Really dont have explanation what is happening. Tomorrow will try to organize nitrate test.

 

[Rybren]

Some proponents of other methods such as ATS, like to claim that organic carbon dosing is unnatural, but that isn't the case.

The metabolism of organics in the ocean and sediments by bacteria and other organisms is very well known by scientists.

Acetate, the main component in vinegar and the second largest component of NOPOX is one of the most common dissolved organic compound in the ocean, at least in terms of the daily consumption.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.4319/lo.2002.47.4.1119/pdf

"High acetate uptake in the surface oxic layer suggests that acetate cycling may be an important component of organic carbon oxidation in oxic environments as well as under anoxic conditions. Depth integrated acetate uptake rates were correlated with the rates of organic carbon supply in the two zones (r2 5 0.37, P 5 0.017). Comparisons of acetate oxidation rates with rates of primary production, chemoautotrophic production, and POC flux show that, on average, acetate oxidation can account for respiration of between 16 and 46% of the organic carbon fixed in the water column."

Thank you Randy.

 

[ksed]

Randy,
Anyway we can translate the amount of vinegar needed in say 120 G, to what is equivalent in the ocean?

Some proponents of other methods such as ATS, like to claim that organic carbon dosing is unnatural, but that isn't the case.

The metabolism of organics in the ocean and sediments by bacteria and other organisms is very well known by scientists.

Acetate, the main component in vinegar and the second largest component of NOPOX is one of the most common dissolved organic compound in the ocean, at least in terms of the daily consumption.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.4319/lo.2002.47.4.1119/pdf

"High acetate uptake in the surface oxic layer suggests that acetate cycling may be an important component of organic carbon oxidation in oxic environments as well as under anoxic conditions. Depth integrated acetate uptake rates were correlated with the rates of organic carbon supply in the two zones (r2 5 0.37, P 5 0.017). Comparisons of acetate oxidation rates with rates of primary production, chemoautotrophic production, and POC flux show that, on average, acetate oxidation can account for respiration of between 16 and 46% of the organic carbon fixed in the water column."

 

[ksed]

I do agree that it happens in the ocean like Randy mentioned but why do we seem to be deficient in nitrogen rather than phosphates in the aquarium but that does not seem to happen in the ocean.

Though I agree, carbon dosing is not a Band-Aid. It happens in the ocean all the time.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

I do agree that it happens in the ocean like Randy mentioned but why do we seem to be deficient in nitrogen rather than phosphates in the aquarium but that does not seem to happen in the ocean.

There's an endless supply of "food" and cascading processes going on in the ocean that do not happen in our tanks.
Like I said, carbon dosing, and many other things happen in the ocean we do not see in our tanks because the mechanisms are not present, nor many of the compounds.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Just to share my experience with DIY Nopox - i.e. etahnol 17% +acetic acid 3%, both analytical grade, no other stuff in it (methanol or isopropanol). My system is 78 gal SPS dominated, after more than 7 months of using DIY Nopox parameters are as follows: NO3 - 0.2ppm (salifert), PO4- 0.012 (lab spectrophotometer), no phosphate remover used, 10% weekly wc Red Sea regular salt. Feeding 3 times per day, 12 grams of frozen food in total. Maintenance daily DIY Nopox dose 3 ml (1 ml per 100 l water). So despite the lack of methanol and isopropanol in it, it works more than perfect in therms of phosphate and nitrate reduction, coral colors are also very good. The only issue I had is cyano, it was there before to start with diy nopox, but did not disappear.
From today I switched to acetic acid, made a solution that have same amount of carbon as nopox, and started with same maintenance dose, I'm really curious what will be the difference. I'll not change anything else. Will keep you informed.

So wait, this experiement doesn't involve nopox?
Perhaps you should create a thread to better solidify your experiences with diy carbon sources..

No wonder the OP isn't posting, the thread has been trolled and hijacked by diy carbon dosers...