Royal Gramma stopped eating after 2 Banggai cardinals passed showing the same (lack of) symptoms

Montressor

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I am very new to this, and I've been trying to take it slow and do everything right, but still managing to fail. This is a red sea nano tank, established March 19, 2023.

Sorry it's long but I feel it may need a little background. The very first fish Royal Gramma I added to this tank had flukes, we didn't catch it and it wiped out both herself, and the two fish that came with them, as well as the replacement.

Rather than rush the fallow period, I let the tank sit for 90 days through several water changes and a significant bout of the uglies that I'm still fighting (algea is quite evident). The inverts and the coral are doing fine, not growing as fast as I would like or hope, but certainly staying healthy and thriving. By the time the fish showed up it had been nearly 100 days.

In November I ordered 2 Bangaai Cardinals, a Midas Blenny and another Royal Gramma from Dr. Reefs. I've seen this combination work in another tank and they fit the profile based on my understanding of mine, the water has been quite stable and the tank healthy.

The fish arrived on December 20. Dr. Reef shipped too many fish, and I ended up with three Benggai cardinals, the Gramma and the Midas Blenny. A week in, one of the cardinals stopped eating and died, since I had three (one extra) I was sad, but didn't contact Dr. Reef as that seemed unreasonable. Unfortunately 4 days later another died in the night and by the time I found him all that was left was the head and only some of that (as I mentioned the inverts are quite healthy). Again they stopped eating and died in short order, I didn't contact Dr. Reef because it was well past the 1 week and all that was left was barely identifiable anyway.

I am clearly concerned at this point but the three remaining fish were still eating heartily. This Gramma is way more territorial than others and was charging the other fish, I figured he might have bullied the others to death honestly.

Except, now he's stopped eating too. I've added a bubbler to the tank but he's still hiding a lot. He's coming out for food, but not eating, and is swimming more lethargically. He seems to be mouth breathing (or when he's out he may be bullying/afraid of the blenny and opening his mouth in agression, though it's not the big yawn of normal aggression). Respiration appears to be 110, though counting on that gramma is tough, respiration is evident in the video. Color is great on all fish (even/especially the gramma) and were on the other two as well, no mucus, no white spots. I've been watching for hours now (I "work" from home, which is why I got the tank) and the only bullying I've observed is the Gramma charging the Blenny.

Parameters to just be thorough:
Temperature 78.3 stable to a 10th of a degree over the last 3 months
NaCL: 35 ppm (aprox 1.026)
Ammonia: 0
Phospates: .06
Nitrates 3.3
dKH 8.1 (down from 8.8 at the last water change 2 weeks ago)

Any help would be appreciated. I do have a 10 gallon quarantine I could set up, though I'd have to R/O the water, temp it and setup the whole tank.


 
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MnFish1

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I am very new to this, and I've been trying to take it slow and do everything right, but still managing to fail. This is a read sea nano tank, established March 19, 2023.

Sorry it's long but I feel it may need a little background. The very first fish Royal Gramma I added to this tank had flukes, we didn't catch it and it wiped out both herself, and the two fish that came with them, as well as the replacement.

Rather than rush the fallow period, I let the tank sit for 90 days through several water changes and a significant bout of the uglies that I'm still fighting (algea is quite evident). The inverts and the coral are doing fine, not growing as fast as I would like or hope, but certainly staying healthy and thriving. By the time the fish showed up it had been nearly 100 days.

In November I ordered 2 Bangaai Cardinals, a Midas Blenny and another Royal Gramma from Dr. Reefs. I've seen this combination work in another tank and they fit the profile based on my understanding of mine, the water has been quite stable and the tank healthy.

The fish arrived on December 20. Dr. Reef shipped too many fish, and I ended up with three Benggai cardinals, the Gramma and the Midas Blenny. A week in, one of the cardinals stopped eating and died, since I had three (one extra) I was sad, but didn't contact Dr. Reef as that seemed unreasonable. Unfortunately 4 days later another died in the night and by the time I found him all that was left was the head and only some of that (as I mentioned the inverts are quite healthy). Again they stopped eating and died in short order, I didn't contact Dr. Reef because it was well past the 1 week and all that was left was barely identifiable anyway.

I am clearly concerned at this point but the three remaining fish were still eating heartily. This Gramma is way more territorial than others and was charging the other fish, I figured he might have bullied the others to death honestly.

Except, now he's stopped eating too. I've added a bubbler to the tank but he's still hiding a lot. He's coming out for food, but not eating, and is swimming more lethargically. He seems to be mouth breathing (or when he's out he may be bullying/afraid of the blenny and opening his mouth in agression, though it's not the big yawn of normal aggression). Respiration appears to be 110, though counting on that gramma is tough, respiration is evident in the video. Color is great on all fish (even/especially the gramma) and were on the other two as well, no mucus, no white spots. I've been watching for hours now (I "work" from home, which is why I got the tank) and the only bullying I've observed is the Gramma charging the Blenny.

Parameters to just be thorough:
Temperature 78.3 stable to a 10th of a degree over the last 3 months
NaCL: 35 ppm (aprox 1.026)
Ammonia: 0
Phospates: .06
Nitrates 3.3
dKH 8.1 (down from 8.8 at the last water change 2 weeks ago)

Any help would be appreciated. I do have a 10 gallon quarantine I could set up, though I'd have to R/O the water, temp it and setup the whole tank.



First - thanks for the detailed description and pictures. Second - I trust the source of Dr. Reef's fish (i.e. that they are tank-raised) - due to the virus that affects cardinal fish in the wild. The rapid decline including the others suggest an infection of some kind - since your inverts are normal.

I would suggest you contact Dr. Reef for suggestions - since he does the quarantine. The fast breathing suggests an illness and the timing is obviously a rapid progression. I would have suggested copper/Prazipro - but since I don't know his exact protocol - I wouldn't want to 'overdose' the fish. I know this seems wishy-washy, however I guess give the behavior and the odds, I would treat again with Prazipro - with adequate aeration, etc.
 

MnFish1

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PS - just FYI - there is a virus in wild-collected Bangii cardinals that can cause death. I'm assuming @Dr. Reef is well aware of this - as most now avoid wild fish. I will say something which I say quite often - Dr. Reef runs an upstanding business - and I would guess he will help you through this
 

Uncle99

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Looks normal to me in the video.
How many days not eating…..are you sure he’s not snacking behind your back?

Bangaii cardinals can be a difficult to acclimatize, are meek in disposition and may take weeks to start fully eating.
 

MnFish1

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Looks normal to me in the video.
How many days not eating…..are you sure he’s not snacking behind your back?

Bangaii cardinals can be a difficult to acclimatize, are meek in disposition and may take weeks to start fully eating.
My comment - with multiple deaths - I would pay close attention to the other fish
 
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Looks normal to me in the video.
How many days not eating…..are you sure he’s not snacking behind your back?

Bangaii cardinals can be a difficult to acclimatize, are meek in disposition and may take weeks to start fully eating.
For the first several weeks, this dude owned the tank. He devoured the Mysis and Brine shrimp mixture that I was feeding (the same mixture that Dr. Reef says he feeds).

Because the Cardinals are both notoriously timid and that gramma was honestly kinda brutal for a gramma, I figured they had been bullied to death when I wasn't looking. Though I'm not sure the Gramma isn't snacking the very severe behavior change has caused me great concern given the previous death of the two Cardinals. It's been two days now, not long but the behavior is the real trigger.

Edited to answer the question.
 
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PS - just FYI - there is a virus in wild-collected Bangii cardinals that can cause death. I'm assuming @Dr. Reef is well aware of this - as most now avoid wild fish. I will say something which I say quite often - Dr. Reef runs an upstanding business - and I would guess he will help you through this
Yeah, I selected Dr Reef because of the outstanding reviews here. Because my life has been utter chaos, I hadn't thought of reaching out directly. I now have.
 

vetteguy53081

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I am very new to this, and I've been trying to take it slow and do everything right, but still managing to fail. This is a red sea nano tank, established March 19, 2023.

Sorry it's long but I feel it may need a little background. The very first fish Royal Gramma I added to this tank had flukes, we didn't catch it and it wiped out both herself, and the two fish that came with them, as well as the replacement.

Rather than rush the fallow period, I let the tank sit for 90 days through several water changes and a significant bout of the uglies that I'm still fighting (algea is quite evident). The inverts and the coral are doing fine, not growing as fast as I would like or hope, but certainly staying healthy and thriving. By the time the fish showed up it had been nearly 100 days.

In November I ordered 2 Bangaai Cardinals, a Midas Blenny and another Royal Gramma from Dr. Reefs. I've seen this combination work in another tank and they fit the profile based on my understanding of mine, the water has been quite stable and the tank healthy.

The fish arrived on December 20. Dr. Reef shipped too many fish, and I ended up with three Benggai cardinals, the Gramma and the Midas Blenny. A week in, one of the cardinals stopped eating and died, since I had three (one extra) I was sad, but didn't contact Dr. Reef as that seemed unreasonable. Unfortunately 4 days later another died in the night and by the time I found him all that was left was the head and only some of that (as I mentioned the inverts are quite healthy). Again they stopped eating and died in short order, I didn't contact Dr. Reef because it was well past the 1 week and all that was left was barely identifiable anyway.

I am clearly concerned at this point but the three remaining fish were still eating heartily. This Gramma is way more territorial than others and was charging the other fish, I figured he might have bullied the others to death honestly.

Except, now he's stopped eating too. I've added a bubbler to the tank but he's still hiding a lot. He's coming out for food, but not eating, and is swimming more lethargically. He seems to be mouth breathing (or when he's out he may be bullying/afraid of the blenny and opening his mouth in agression, though it's not the big yawn of normal aggression). Respiration appears to be 110, though counting on that gramma is tough, respiration is evident in the video. Color is great on all fish (even/especially the gramma) and were on the other two as well, no mucus, no white spots. I've been watching for hours now (I "work" from home, which is why I got the tank) and the only bullying I've observed is the Gramma charging the Blenny.

Parameters to just be thorough:
Temperature 78.3 stable to a 10th of a degree over the last 3 months
NaCL: 35 ppm (aprox 1.026)
Ammonia: 0
Phospates: .06
Nitrates 3.3
dKH 8.1 (down from 8.8 at the last water change 2 weeks ago)

Any help would be appreciated. I do have a 10 gallon quarantine I could set up, though I'd have to R/O the water, temp it and setup the whole tank.



These fish are susceptible to flukes and often not seen with naked eye but rather by certain behaviors such as loss of appetite, yawning, fast breathing, flashing/scratching as examples
Assure water quality is in safe range with periodic monitoring and observe for unusual behaviors and report back
In video, looks like a normal gramma to me
 
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Just a follow up. Saturday the gramma was eating like a pig, though I fed them late. The fish stopped eating on Sunday, After following up with Dr. Reef I treated with PraziPro early Tuesday because the mouth breathing had gotten worse and the Gramma wouldn’t leave his hole.

There were no other symptoms. No flashing darting or other. Just lethargy, mouth breathing, and no appetite.

Today I removed him from his hiding hole deceased. I’m starting to feel like a mass murderer of fish particularly Grammas and this is breaking my heart.

The final Banggai is no longer eating and has started mouth breathing, I can’t imagine they are going to last much longer. The Midas Blenny is still eating like a pig.

Does anyone know if this Banggai virus spreads to other fish? Apparently it may also be infecting tank bred populations.

If anyone wants a picture of the deceased for determining causes out of interest I’m happy to oblige. Right up until they died, this was the prettiest gramma I had ever seen.
 
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eggie

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Does he have any sign or marking in the body after the death. Im having lost a couple of fish with the same symptoms to what I have shown to a friend and think it could be Uronema marinum.
The problem with Uronema is that it lives in the rocks and sand and could live off bacteria as well doesnt attack all fish either
 
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Does he have any sign or marking in the body after the death. Im having lost a couple of fish with the same symptoms to what I have shown to a friend and think it could be Uronema marinum.
The problem with Uronema is that it lives in the rocks and sand and could live off bacteria as well doesnt attack all fish either
There were no external signs of any illness at all. Up till the minute he died he was one of the most attractive Grammas I had ever seen (actually even retained his color after death). I'm currently also losing the final Banggai cardinal who similarly looks as good as the day they arrived to my eyes. Maybe I'm just not seeing something I should, so I've included a photo. Obviously he shouldn't be at the bottom of the tank and his respiration is way up.

I'm preparing for a 25% water change after dosing prazipro tomorrow (72 hour mark) and I'll be heavily weeding the algae. There really isnt anything I can find that might tell me why this is happening. We did a calibrated PH test and other less common tests yesterday. Ph is low though not dangerously so.

Currently (Seneye values) other data is:
Ph 7.94 (calibrated food grade ph measure was 7.89 so pretty close)
NH3 .003 ppm
NH4 20.89 ppb
O2 8.1

I also have a Seachem ammonia tag in the tank just to make sure I wasn't missing the obvious, that's still at zero 24 hours in.
 

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