Sump Overflow Direct or Indirect?

[MantisShrimpMan]

Off the top of my head - Removal of beneficial organisms, rapid depletion of filtration media to no major benefit.
Higher propensity for clogs, floods, etc. and a single point of failure. Plumbing complications and complexity, etc.


Even if 100% of the system water is run directly into a skimmer, not 100% of the fauna (or anything else) is removed.


This is not an all or nothing thing and moreover, even you do directly process 100% of the water through mechanical filtration, you will still have detritus throughout the system. Most people who reef rollers (or socks) realize very quickly that they fill up with pounds of crap, but the system still accumulates as much crap (pun no pun) as it did without the mechanical filtration.

This is an interesting point of view. Do you run filter rollers on your own system(s)? If not, filter socks? And if so what portion of the flow would you say makes it through the mechanical filtration as opposed to what portion bypasses it?

My main drain pipe is hard plumbed to the roller and the emergency just drains down straight in my return chamber, although its raised above the water level so I will know if I encounter trouble in the main drain.

On this topic- Id love help from both of you @BeanAnimal and @Wave Whisperer - is there any major noteworthy advantage to setting up your emergency drain to completely bypass to the return chamber? Like, why SHOULDN'T the emergency drainage still make its way through the protein skimmer, refugium, etc.? I can see it being wise to keep the emergency pipe elevated so when its in use you can hear it and react accordingly, but why not just have it make noise into the same spillover chamber as the rest of the pipes instead of totally bypassing the system?

 

[MantisShrimpMan]

Also- for everyone that's been kind enough to contribute thus far:
@YOYOYOReefer @KrisReef @Wave Whisperer @Reefkeepers Archive @twentyleagues @exnisstech @BeanAnimal
Just want to thank all of you, I appreciate the advice, this stuff can be super difficult to figure out by piecemealing advice from previous threads as opposed to outlining your exact logistical thought process, I'm sure I'm coming across as a rookie but this is so very helpful!

On that topic, would you guys be willing to take a look at the diagrams I provided for plumbing the roller in? Im curious which version you'd opt for (or if you'd go about it totally differently!), as I'm new to reef plumbing (only prior reefing experience is limited to AIO) and I feel like hearing extensive feedback on this subject can give me takeaways to apply to other plumbing questions as well.

 

[Wave Whisperer]

On this topic- Id love help from both of you @BeanAnimal and @Wave Whisperer - is there any major noteworthy advantage to setting up your emergency drain to completely bypass to the return chamber? Like, why SHOULDN'T the emergency drainage still make its way through the protein skimmer, refugium, etc.? I can see it being wise to keep the emergency pipe elevated so when its in use you can hear it and react accordingly, but why not just have it make noise into the same spillover chamber as the rest of the pipes instead of totally bypassing the system?

In retrospect, your emergency can drain into any part of your sump. It all depends on your setup and choice. Ease of plumbing, maintenance etc. For me, I drain into my return chamber for practicality sake. That's the shortest, simplest and requires the least plumbing. IMO that's the major advantage in my build I choose this route. Anyway, it's being left dry 98% of the time, unless when I'm dipping my hands in the tank or I'm fine tuning my siphon flow, so I don't see any significant advantage in running it again thru my main filtrations. The main purpose of emergency is just that, to control your water level in your DT so it won't overflow out the sides.

I agree with most posters here and your choice of having a spill over, it does has its advantages and purpose. I used to run the same setup on my previous tank with filter socks. However, after I upgraded and decided on a fleece roller, I eliminated that chamber totally as I don't see a purpose for it. Most spill over will flow into a 4" or 7" filter socks holders. I'm still wondering how are you going to direct all that flow into the input pipe of your fleece roller without going thru (hard or soft) plumbing.

Perhaps like you mentioned, a diagram would be very helpful for us all in giving additional inputs on your ideas for us to fully understand your concept. Reefing is all about thinking out of the box, and I'm always open to new ideas or concept in this hobby. We can openly share and discuss and provide inputs of flaws or advantages in certain concepts.

Plumbing should be practical for its purpose and importantly, ease of maintenance. Like @BeanAnimal has mentioned, don't overthink too much buddy.

 

[MantisShrimpMan]

I'm still wondering how are you going to direct all that flow into the input pipe of your fleece roller without going thru (hard or soft) plumbing.

Perhaps like you mentioned, a diagram would be very helpful for us all in giving additional inputs on your ideas for us to fully understand your concept. Reefing is all about thinking out of the box, and I'm always open to new ideas or concept in this hobby. We can openly share and discuss and provide inputs of flaws or advantages in certain concepts.

Did you see that I provided a number of diagrams on how I intended to plumb it? Check out this part of the previous page:

Glad you asked since I’d love to get other peoples thoughts on that component of this situation!

So I had been thinking that there’d be a small horizontal overhang to allow me to mount a bulkhead vertically that would lead into the 90 degree elbow. Like this:

Forgive the poor depiction of a bulkhead, wasn’t sure how best to draw it but hopefully the idea makes sense. I’d also consider just siliconing the pipe in directly, considering the bulkhead would have proud lips unless I found a way to recess it into that horizontal panel.

The other thing I realized was that that in order to get this out for roll replacement and general maintanance, I have to plan on the plumbing in a way that can allow a link to pop apart. Usually you’d use a union for that kinda task, but since this is already in the sump where a minor leak from one chamber to another doesn’t appear to have any massively negative impact potential, I’d assume just a tight slip fitting would be enough?

So in evaulating that, it appears it would be much easier to be able to pop the filter roller out of the sump via a horizontal link vs a vertical link, shown in this diagram in that the green motion would be preferable to the red one.

The filter roller comes with a 90 degree elbow, but if you look at ReefDork’ s video on the matter you’ll see he 3D printed himself a straight version of the part:

So, if I could get one of those, I could hook it up to disassemble like this:

Alternatively though, I could perhaps mount the bulkhead on the vertical plane, sort of like how you’d expect for using an external return pump? This would avoid the overhang, and could also perhaps allow me to use the provided 90 degree bend if done a certain way?

 

[Wave Whisperer]

Did you see that I provided a number of diagrams on how I intended to plumb it? Check out this part of the previous page:

I'm sorry. I completely missed out on the diagrams. I went straight to page 2 of this post. I'll take a look and provide inputs.

 

[Wave Whisperer]

Glad you asked since I’d love to get other peoples thoughts on that component of this situation!

So I had been thinking that there’d be a small horizontal overhang to allow me to mount a bulkhead vertically that would lead into the 90 degree elbow. Like this:

Forgive the poor depiction of a bulkhead, wasn’t sure how best to draw it but hopefully the idea makes sense. I’d also consider just siliconing the pipe in directly, considering the bulkhead would have proud lips unless I found a way to recess it into that horizontal panel.

The other thing I realized was that that in order to get this out for roll replacement and general maintanance, I have to plan on the plumbing in a way that can allow a link to pop apart. Usually you’d use a union for that kinda task, but since this is already in the sump where a minor leak from one chamber to another doesn’t appear to have any massively negative impact potential, I’d assume just a tight slip fitting would be enough?

So in evaulating that, it appears it would be much easier to be able to pop the filter roller out of the sump via a horizontal link vs a vertical link, shown in this diagram in that the green motion would be preferable to the red one.

The filter roller comes with a 90 degree elbow, but if you look at ReefDork’ s video on the matter you’ll see he 3D printed himself a straight version of the part:

So, if I could get one of those, I could hook it up to disassemble like this:

Alternatively though, I could perhaps mount the bulkhead on the vertical plane, sort of like how you’d expect for using an external return pump? This would avoid the overhang, and could also perhaps allow me to use the provided 90 degree bend if done a certain way?

Impressive! I see you really have these well thought out. Good with the graphics, I now have a broader understanding of what you have in mind. This is a whole new perspective for me on plumbing a fleece roller.

How fast of a flow (turnover thru sump) you intend to run in your system? The only drawback I can see in this setup is that the water would regurgitate back out of your roller input pipe if the flow is too fast. The input need some pressure for it to be effective enough for the water to pass thru. To be safe, I might say go with the 90deg elbow upwards, the first one. At least there's some gravity induced pressure in allowing the water to flow through. I can't give a definitive answer if this will or will not work, as I've never experienced or seen a roller plumbed this way before. The only way to find out I guess is to try it out. In the worse case scenario, you can always put a series of elbows in your main siphon and directly plumbed it to the roller. Or alternatively, you can always tune down your turnover flow to suit your filtration methods, as long its conducive for your tank inhabitants.

 

[MantisShrimpMan]

Impressive! I see you really have these well thought out. Good with the graphics, I now have a broader understanding of what you have in mind. This is a whole new perspective for me on plumbing a fleece roller.

How fast of a flow (turnover thru sump) you intend to run in your system? The only drawback I can see in this setup is that the water would regurgitate back out of your roller input pipe if the flow is too fast. The input need some pressure for it to be effective enough for the water to pass thru. To be safe, I might say go with the 90deg elbow upwards, the first one. At least there's some gravity induced pressure in allowing the water to flow through. I can't give a definitive answer if this will or will not work, as I've never experienced or seen a roller plumbed this way before. The only way to find out I guess is to try it out. In the worse case scenario, you can always put a series of elbows in your main siphon and directly plumbed it to the roller. Or alternatively, you can always tune down your turnover flow to suit your filtration methods, as long its conducive for your tank inhabitants.

Thanks!

All of this planning is for a UNS 50C, which is a 50cmx50cmx50cm cube, and that works out to just over 30 gallons.

Coming from an AIO mindset, I was initially of the belief I wanted 10x or more turnover through sump, 10x being like 300 gph on this system. I’m now realizing it makes way more sense to run it at 3-5x, so more like 120-150 gph. The unfortunate thing is that I bought a Nero 3 during a recent sale, but now if Im minimizing my sump turnover flow if that means I’ll need more DT powerhead flow compared to the typical AIO philosophy, might end up needing to pick up another Nero or something.

I’m also currently figuring out what overflow to run. I’m most interested in the modular marine low profile ones. Their smallest model, 800 gph, uses 3x ½” drains. @BeanAnimal , I’d love to get your thoughts on the validity of using your overflow system with such small diameter piping? So as a result I’ve been a bit curious as to whether I should upgrade to their 1200gph model, which instead opts for 0.75” drains? Especially in tandem with schedule 80 pvc which has thicker walls, Im not sure if I’m toeing the line with such skinny Standpipes. Or if I oversize the overflow box if that will risk a noise increase? Input wanted!

But regardless, it’s worth mentioning that the intake on the reef factory smart roller S is 40mm, or 1.57”. As Than from @Tidal Gardens frequently mentions in their excellent videos on reef plumbing topics, because of square/cube law stuff, you’re not just doubling the area with a tube with twice the diameter, you’re effectively increasing it by 400%. In my case, a 0.5” diameter circle has a 0.0199”^2 area, and a 1.57” circle has a 0.196”^2 area, so I’m coming close to increasing the cross sectional area (from the individual standpipes to the filter roller intake) by 1000%. Even if I increased it the 1200 gph model with 0.75” pipes, I’d still be looking at a ~450% area increase.

I say all of this because I assume that the sheer increased diameter of the roller pipe tube will make it nearly impossible for the water from the smaller diameters to overwhelm it. The math supports this right? Or am I missing something?

 

[MantisShrimpMan]

This is a whole new perspective for me on plumbing a fleece roller.

I can't give a definitive answer if this will or will not work, as I've never experienced or seen a roller plumbed this way before. The only way to find out I guess is to try it out.

For what it’s worth, it appears to be the case that sumps with built in filter rollers are built this sorta way. Take a look at this video from @Bulk Reef Supply about trigger systems platinum sumps. Relevant portion begins at like 1:15:



It’s worth recognizing in that design, it’s simply a cutout and it’s located towards the bottom of the dividing wall. I’m curious if, upon seeing that, it should influence our opinions that had been previously leaning towards placing the bulkhead cutout higher up?

 

[twentyleagues]

Glad you asked since I’d love to get other peoples thoughts on that component of this situation!

So I had been thinking that there’d be a small horizontal overhang to allow me to mount a bulkhead vertically that would lead into the 90 degree elbow. Like this:

Forgive the poor depiction of a bulkhead, wasn’t sure how best to draw it but hopefully the idea makes sense. I’d also consider just siliconing the pipe in directly, considering the bulkhead would have proud lips unless I found a way to recess it into that horizontal panel.

The other thing I realized was that that in order to get this out for roll replacement and general maintanance, I have to plan on the plumbing in a way that can allow a link to pop apart. Usually you’d use a union for that kinda task, but since this is already in the sump where a minor leak from one chamber to another doesn’t appear to have any massively negative impact potential, I’d assume just a tight slip fitting would be enough?

So in evaulating that, it appears it would be much easier to be able to pop the filter roller out of the sump via a horizontal link vs a vertical link, shown in this diagram in that the green motion would be preferable to the red one.

The filter roller comes with a 90 degree elbow, but if you look at ReefDork’ s video on the matter you’ll see he 3D printed himself a straight version of the part:

So, if I could get one of those, I could hook it up to disassemble like this:

Alternatively though, I could perhaps mount the bulkhead on the vertical plane, sort of like how you’d expect for using an external return pump? This would avoid the overhang, and could also perhaps allow me to use the provided 90 degree bend if done a certain way?

I think the top design would be better at directing the flow through the filter mat. Water will take the path of least resistance so in the bottom designs it may just go over the baffle. Id also keep the 90 design, again in my mind it'll help direct flow better.

 

[exnisstech]

The unfortunate thing is that I bought a Nero 3 during a recent sale, but now if Im minimizing my sump turnover flow if that means I’ll need more DT powerhead flow compared to the typical AIO philosophy, might end up needing to pick up another Nero or something.

Probably just me but I have never bothered to calculate return flow rate. Drain pipes and return for me are entirely for filtration and flow through my fuges. I depend on flow from my power heads for the actually in tank turn over.

 

[Tidal Gardens]

We personally like the right-side method in your picture. Either is fine though. It is also easier to maintain the right side because you do not have to take out the plumbing to remove the sock, you just lift it out and replace it. Doing it this way also gives a small area for any fish to stay in that would make it down the overflow. We are always getting wrasses in this section and if they went directly into a sock, chances are they wouldn't make it.

 

[MantisShrimpMan]

I think the top design would be better at directing the flow through the filter mat. Water will take the path of least resistance so in the bottom designs it may just go over the baffle. Id also keep the 90 design, again in my mind it'll help direct flow better.

I could use a bit of clarification on this comment. In retrospect I should have done this from the beginning, but here‘s a version of the diagram that has the different options labeled:

When you say:

so in the bottom designs it may just go over the baffle.

Are the bottom designs referring to both B and C? Or just B, since it has the bottom port? I can’t tell if “bottom” is referring to the bottom of the chamber, or the lowermost diagrams of the initial posting.

And when you say:

Id also keep the 90 design, again in my mind it'll help direct flow better.

Are you referring to the lower 90 bend thats featured in both A and C? Or the horizontal baffle ledge thing thats unique to version A?

As I give this more thought, I‘m of the belief that implementing that horizontal lip shown in A might end up being a pain in the butt? Again, I’ve never built a sump before so I’m not entirely sure, but I’d imagine that especially in a relatively small form factor, getting everything to sit in place right with that lip might be tough or lead to other flow issues?

If you look at Reef Dork’s video on his second channel about the Reef Factory smart roller S, he doesnt use a spillover the way I’m suggesting, but he does use a horizontal pipe similar to Version B, but I think its not a one to one comparison BECAUSE its coming straight from the overflow’s hard plumbing. Speaking of Reef Dork, I need to figure out if I can get him or someone else to make and sell me a straight version of the input since the Reef Factory roller only comes with the 90 bend component.

So, I guess I’m leaning towards option C? It still has a vertical drop, which seems to be why option A is preferable to option B, but unlike A it doesn’t require a vertical baffle and remains compatible with the OEM 90 bend input part. At the end of the day, A and C basically accomplish the same thing, just via different angular components, and the ones used in C might just be easier to acquire/make. Thoughts?

 

[MantisShrimpMan]

Probably just me but I have never bothered to calculate return flow rate. Drain pipes and return for me are entirely for filtration and flow through my fuges. I depend on flow from my power heads for the actually in tank turn over.

Yeah for sure this makes sense! I think its because up until now, the only thing I’ve ever experimented with in my current AIO is zoanthids, so I never had anything particularly flow demanding, and with soft corals in AIOs many have made the argument that you can bump up the flow through the rear sump enough to eliminate the need for power heads. But with a sumped system, especially with the LPS and SPS I hope to run, the flow requirements exceed what you can expect to get out of your sump turnover, thus forcing the need for powerheads.

The TLDR of it is that a softie AIO is a completely different animal than an LPS/SPS/mixed sumped tank, and so your lack of calculating flow rates is probably a lot more normal, I‘m just used to a different methodology altogether

 

[MantisShrimpMan]

We personally like the right-side method in your picture. Either is fine though. It is also easier to maintain the right side because you do not have to take out the plumbing to remove the sock, you just lift it out and replace it. Doing it this way also gives a small area for any fish to stay in that would make it down the overflow. We are always getting wrasses in this section and if they went directly into a sock, chances are they wouldn't make it.

Hi @Tidal Gardens ! I tagged you because I appreciate your videos and the usable knowledge base you’ve created for inexperienced hobbyists like me, wanted to sorta pay homage and thanks, but I didn’t think you’d end up actually providing feedback here! What a welcome surprise!

While I’ve got your attention, would you be willing to provide an opinion on whether option A B or C is your recommended version? I was watching Than’s video on the top 5 plumbing mistakes and his commentary on ‘using the wrong parts for a workaround solution cause you’re in a rush as opposed to getting the proper fittings to do something simple and proper’ really stood out to me, hence my focus on figuring out which plumbing assembly would be best for this design.

 

[slythy]

I have a Bashsea thats Direct and A bashsea the Indirect. The only negative I have about the indirect is it utilizes more sump real estate. I would pick indirect over and over again

 

[Tidal Gardens]

Unfortunately, we do not use roller mats here and I couldn't offer you the best way to feed them or plumbing advice for them. I originally thought you were going with the filter sock method in the original post. If I could offer you any advice, it is to make sure anything in your sump is easily "serviceable". If you make it a pain to service then chances are you will not service your equipment.

Filter socks in our opinion are the easiest and cheapest way for us to remove particulates coming into the sump.

 

[BeanAnimal]

As I stated prior - you are way overthinking most of this.

1 - keep things as simple as you can.

• Maintenance is hard enough, don't create obstacles to make it harder
• Complexity increases probability of failure
• Complexity increases probability of unpredicted results
• Complexity begets complexity

2 - You need a way for water to bypass your filter roller for WHEN it fails and becomes clogged.

3 - I don't use one, but would assume that trying to passively move water through it is not going to work, especially if it is properly auto-bypassed when clogged or partially clogged.

Stop worry about getting every ounce of water through it and worry more about making sure that there are no failure modes that will result in flooding, running a pump dry or similar and making sure that maintenance IS AS EASY AS POSSIBLE for the filter AND the sump, etc. So back to point 1. Keep it simple.

Lastly - slow down just a bit - your are spraying a firehose if information and questions out in long detailed posts. Most folks have short attention spans when it comes to browsing and helping. This goes back to point 1. Keep things as simple as you can. If you want complex, and enjoy that, then start simple and let the complexity of your system build over time as your own experience and knowledge grow.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Now to your question.

The water in the input chamber is a fixed height.

The water to the right of that chamber is dependent on evaporation, unless it too has a fixed height baffle to the right of it.

You did not say if you were running a skimmer or not. Skimmers work far better in a fixed (stable) water height.

The area that the return pump draws from will be variable height. As water evaporates, the water level in that area of the sump will drop.

These are the things that you need to consider in the sump design that have to be sorted out before you figure out how and where you want to feed the roller filter.

 

[Kfactor]

my vote is spill over it shouldnt build up gunk if you have flow going to it

 

[MantisShrimpMan]

As I stated prior - you are way overthinking most of this.

Lastly - slow down just a bit - your are spraying a firehose if information and questions out in long detailed posts. Most folks have short attention spans when it comes to browsing and helping. This goes back to point 1. Keep things as simple as you can. If you want complex, and enjoy that, then start simple and let the complexity of your system build over time as your own experience and knowledge grow.

I have social communication disorder and ADHD. I have a biological tendency (it’s not like I consciously choose to do this) that leads to me focusing heavily on every last detail, AND write a lot in the process. Im sorry if I’m a ‘firehose of info’ But this is how I think and who I am.

I should also mention, Im a fairly broke college student, I will struggle to afford a nice complete system on my own at the moment. Fortunately, someone I look up to has said he’d consider providing some funds to help me out with this tank IF I can provide him with a finalized parts list for budgeting- before starting this build. So, under those circumstances, I DO need to plan out every last detail.

I‘m sorry if my long-windedness is frustrating, but given who I am and my circumstances for planning this tank, this is somewhat necessary for me.

Frankly, I don’t love having to share this, but given your evident frustration with my posts I figured I had to provide the context.