Tank Transfer Method

[Humblefish]

There is also a question of which method brings quickest relief to the fish, since velvet is such a fast killing organism. Copper vs. (theoretical) TTM. Velvet remains on a fish anywhere from 12 hours - 4 days (96 hours.) Copper has no impact on those trophonts on the fish. So, no relief either way until after the trophonts fall off. However, you could dose acriflavine (to ward off infection) whilst doing TTM. I've kept fish in that for days with no ill effects. Or some public aquariums mix low dosage formalin (to keep surface parasites at bay) with copper until the latter finishes them off; formalin could be applied the same way during TTM.

Now that I think more about it, THREE 36 hour transfers (108 hours) might be sufficient to outrun velvet. Even if the trophont were to drop off immediately, it will still take 48 hours before the tomont stage can begin releasing free swimmers. So, no chance of reinfection so long as you keep transferring every 36 hours. AND the longest the trophont can remain on a fish before dropping off is 4 days (96 hours.) So, 108 hours outruns it.

Still, I like the added safety net that Four 36 hour transfers (144 hours) affords. Just thinking out loud here.

 

[chaoticreefer]

^^This. You can technically begin Prazipro at anytime during TTM so long as:

1. The fish can be exposed to it for at least 24 hrs before the next transfer.
2. You allow for 5-7 days in-between rounds of treatment.
3. You don't use an ammonia reducer while Prazipro is present in the water.

So, #1 might be useful for those hesitant to dose Prazipro with known sensitive species, such as wrasses. Dose it 24 hrs before your next transfer so the fish has limited exposure to the chemical.

Some say that clowns are more sensitive and dosing should be started off with 1/2 recommended amount. Do recommend that (with respect with above TT method)?

Also, a friend wanted me ask about if it's better to store PraziPro in a refrigerator?

 

[Humblefish]

Some say that clowns are more sensitive and dosing should be started off with 1/2 recommended amount. Do recommend that (with respect with above TT method)?

IME clownfish are some of the most tolerant fish around; however wrasses can be sensitive to prazi and other medications. Nevertheless, you risk not eradicating all the worms by using a subtherapeutic dosage.

Also, a friend wanted me ask about if it's better to store PraziPro in a refrigerator?

I always store mine at room temperature. Not sure what refrigeration would do to the ingredients.

 

[Brew12]

There is also a question of which method brings quickest relief to the fish, since velvet is such a fast killing organism. Copper vs. (theoretical) TTM. Velvet remains on a fish anywhere from 12 hours - 4 days (96 hours.) Copper has no impact on those trophonts on the fish. So, no relief either way until after the trophonts fall off. However, you could dose acriflavine (to ward off infection) whilst doing TTM. I've kept fish in that for days with no ill effects. Or some public aquariums mix low dosage formalin (to keep surface parasites at bay) with copper until the latter finishes them off; formalin could be applied the same way during TTM.

Now that I think more about it, THREE 36 hour transfers (108 hours) might be sufficient to outrun velvet. Even if the trophont were to drop off immediately, it will still take 48 hours before the tomont stage can begin releasing free swimmers. So, no chance of reinfection so long as you keep transferring every 36 hours. AND the longest the trophont can remain on a fish before dropping off is 4 days (96 hours.) So, 108 hours outruns it.

Still, I like the added safety net that Four 36 hour transfers (144 hours) affords. Just thinking out loud here.

I don't like just how tight the transfer windows are. A few hours early one day and late the next and you could run into serious problems. It's worth exploring, imo, but is there risk!

 

[Humblefish]

I don't like just how tight the transfer windows are. A few hours early one day and late the next and you could run into serious problems. It's worth exploring, imo, but is there risk!

Once I'm back in position to do so, I'll try it out. I love discovering new methods/treatments.

 

[ocruz]

Hi guys,
I was wondering if 15G Long would be enough to do TTM on 4 lyretail anthias.

Thanks

 

[Humblefish]

Hi guys,
I was wondering if 15G Long would be enough to do TTM on 4 lyretail anthias.

Thanks

Yes; although if they are large anthias I would test for ammonia daily.

 

[ocruz]

awesome thanks.
this is a brand new build of a 150g with 100sump. Ive had it running for about 3 months with just cuc. I was planing on ordering 3 fem 1 male Anthias, a Tailspot and a McCosker's, But I really want to avoid ich for when I add the tangs.

 

[Areseebee]

Is there a rule of thumb on air pump size? Does it even matter? Should I go by the factory ratings or 2x, 3x etc? Let's say, for instance, on a 10g.

 

[Pongo]

@Humblefish, just wanted to run this TTM schedule by you

Day 1 - fish in the tank.
Day 3 - 1st transfer at 47 hours.
Day 5 - 2nd transfer at 47 hours.
Day 8 - 3rd transfer at 71 hours.
Day 11 - 4th transfer at 71 hours.
Day 14 - 5th transfer at 71 hours.

Do you think that will cover for velvet and ich?

 

[Humblefish]

Is there a rule of thumb on air pump size? Does it even matter? Should I go by the factory ratings or 2x, 3x etc? Let's say, for instance, on a 10g.

So long as the flow of air is causing a strong ripple at the surface of the water, you are good.

@Humblefish, just wanted to run this TTM schedule by you

Day 1 - fish in the tank.
Day 3 - 1st transfer at 47 hours.
Day 5 - 2nd transfer at 47 hours.
Day 8 - 3rd transfer at 71 hours.
Day 11 - 4th transfer at 71 hours.
Day 14 - 5th transfer at 71 hours.

Do you think that will cover for velvet and ich?

Using TTM to treat velvet is still highly theoretical. However, to accomplish what you are proposing this is how I would go about doing it:

Day 1 - fish in tank
Day 2 - 1st transfer at 36 hours
Day 4 - 2nd transfer at 36 hours
Day 5 - 3rd transfer at 36 hours
Day 7 - 4th transfer at 36 hours
Day 10 - 5th transfer at 71 hours
Day 13 - 6th transfer at 71 hours

This protocol may be overly conservative; but you have to start out that way when trying to develop a new treatment.

 

[Pongo]

So long as the flow of air is causing a strong ripple at the surface of the water, you are good.

Using TTM to treat velvet is still highly theoretical. However, to accomplish what you are proposing this is how I would go about doing it:

Day 1 - fish in tank
Day 2 - 1st transfer at 36 hours
Day 4 - 2nd transfer at 36 hours
Day 5 - 3rd transfer at 36 hours
Day 7 - 4th transfer at 36 hours
Day 10 - 5th transfer at 71 hours
Day 13 - 6th transfer at 71 hours

This protocol may be overly conservative; but you have to start out that way when trying to develop a new treatment.

Thanks for the quick response and I was afraid that is what you'd say.

Having to work 5 days a week I was hoping my proposed scheduled might work.

 

[Humblefish]

Thanks for the quick response and I was afraid that is what you'd say.

Having to work 5 days a week I was hoping my proposed scheduled might work.

If the "TTM to treat velvet" theory proves to be successful, I may try longer transfer windows. But 47 hrs is cutting it very close to the 48 hr dinospore release window.

 

[Brew12]

If the "TTM to treat velvet" theory proves to be successful, I may try longer transfer windows. But 47 hrs is cutting it very close to the 48 hr dinospore release window.

I worry that not enough strains of velvet have been studied to be confident that the window cannot be shorter.

 

[Humblefish]

I worry that not enough strains of velvet have been studied to be confident that the window cannot be shorter.

You do make a good point there.

 

[Reefahholic]

I've thought about this a lot lately. According to both life cycles of ICH and Velvet...

With ICH...the Trophont feeds on the fish for about 3 - 7 days...

With Velvet...the Trophont feeds on the fish for about 12hrs - 4 days....

Either way....it really doesn't matter as long as you transfer and run either COPPER or CP. Technically after "ONLY 3 transfers" the fish should be free of parasites. The max time for both parasites to actually be present on the fish is 7 days. After that period of time, and running the drugs mentioned above (WHICH PREVENTS MORE PARASITES FROM LANDING ON THE FISH), Your fish should not become reinfected unless you are doing something wrong or your medication isn't at a THERAPEUTIC LEVEL. The parasites are crippled by the medication and unable to seek out a fish host.

I have already made up my mind to only do 3 transfers for both ICH and Velvet.

 

[Humblefish]

I've thought about this a lot lately. According to both life cycles of ICH and Velvet...

With ICH...the Trophont feeds on the fish for about 3 - 7 days...

With Velvet...the Trophont feeds on the fish for about 12hrs - 4 days....

Either way....it really doesn't matter as long as you transfer and run either COPPER or CP. Technically after "ONLY 3 transfers" the fish should be free of parasites. The max time for both parasites to actually be present on the fish is 7 days. After that period of time, and running the drugs mentioned above (WHICH PREVENTS MORE PARASITES FROM LANDING ON THE FISH), Your fish should not become reinfected unless you are doing something wrong or your medication isn't at a THERAPEUTIC LEVEL. The parasites are crippled by the medication and unable to seek out a fish host.

I have already made up my mind to only do 3 transfers for both ICH and Velvet.

Why not just do one transfer after 10 days? That allows for a little wiggle room, assuming therapeutic levels have been strictly maintained for the entire 10 days.

 

[Reefahholic]

You do make a good point there.

Until we have documented evidence that the time frames are different, I'm not worried about it. See my post above. If I get Velvet or ICH.....I'll cross that bridge when I get there and believe me, I'll be documenting with video. We need to take the information we have and run with it. If it proves to be inaccurate, we will modify and proceed from there.

I just got a new Microscope. I will be testing both velvet and ICH in a small 2.5 to 5 gallon tank. I will infect the tank with ICH or Velvet and dose different meds into the tank and then scrape the fish daily to look for activity.

The question for me right now is...how long does it take for Velvet Trophont's to fall off after medication hits the water column. We know they are external, unlike the Trophont's of ICH.

 

[Reefahholic]

Why not just do one transfer after 10 days? That allows for a little wiggle room, assuming therapeutic levels have been strictly maintained for the entire 10 days.

That's a great idea!

 

[Reefahholic]

I think we really need to think this thing through and modify it according what we feel is the least amount of time, but also safe. I think we should make it one transfer on day 8 and then OBSERVATION begins WITHOUT ANY MEDS for 3 weeks.