The Bacterial Infection Predicament

Bthomas · Mar 11, 2019

Brew12 said:
I know that Uronema is very common in Anthias right now so Metro is the best treatment I am aware of. If you aren't doing it already I would also be using Metro soaked food. Uronema can be internal and external with food dosing being more helpful for the internal version.
What type of copper are you using, and how are you monitoring it?

I've been trying to get them eating metro soaked food but they arnt eating anything at all the past couple days. When they were eating I was only able to get them to eat flakes.
I'm using coppersafe with a Hanna checker

Brew12 · Mar 11, 2019

Bthomas said:
I've been trying to get them eating metro soaked food but they arnt eating anything at all the past couple days. When they were eating I was only able to get them to eat flakes.
I'm using coppersafe with a Hanna checker

That's not good.

I have found the chelated copper at 1.75ppm by Hanna checker is surprisingly gentile on fish. I'd rather see what one of the big guns says about pulling or leaving in copper. @4FordFamily @HotRocks @ngoodermuth @Big G

HotRocks · Mar 11, 2019

Brew12 said:
That's not good.

I have found the chelated copper at 1.75ppm by Hanna checker is surprisingly gentile on fish. I'd rather see what one of the big guns says about pulling or leaving in copper. @4FordFamily @HotRocks @ngoodermuth @Big G

Is it possible to get a pic of these fish?

I worry it's uronema and not bacterial as @Brew12 mentioned.

At any rate, it is probably worth lowering the Cu level to see if they will eat since you are only a few days into therapeutic copper. You really need them to eat in order to ingest some mertronidazole if this is Uronema you are dealing with. Are you keeping up with dosing metro in the water column as well?

ngoodermuth · Mar 11, 2019

^^ I was thinking the same thing, maybe do a large waterchange before your next metroplex dose and leave out the copper... bring it down to half-strength and just see if that perks up their appetite. Bacterial or uronema, they won’t be able to beat it if they aren’t eating...

Bthomas · Mar 11, 2019

HotRocks said:
Is it possible to get a pic of these fish?

I worry it's uronema and not bacterial as @Brew12 mentioned.

At any rate, it is probably worth lowering the Cu level to see if they will eat since you are only a few days into therapeutic copper. You really need them to eat in order to ingest some mertronidazole if this is Uronema you are dealing with. Are you keeping up with dosing metro in the water column as well?

Only one of them (pictured) has sores that really resembles uronema. The rest just have white patches and clowdy looking skin.. Which doesn't really show up well on photos.. This group shot was from yesterday.
I have been dosing metro in the water every other day (2 scoops per 10 gallons) yesterday was dose #5

Bthomas · Mar 11, 2019

It's just really not looking like uronema to me. Having dealt with that 3 times now in chromis, it never looked like this nor is this progressing the same way. With the chromis they were all dead in a matter of days after showing signs (maybe these guys are just tougher I dunno, but it just doesn't look the same)
This is more white cloudy/flakey skin rather then red sores
Here's another pic from just now

Brew12 · Mar 11, 2019

Bthomas said:
It's just really not looking like uronema to me. Having dealt with that 3 times now in chromis, it never looked like this nor is this progressing the same way. With the chromis they were all dead in a matter of days after showing signs (maybe these guys are just tougher I dunno, but it just doesn't look the same)
This is more white cloudy/flakey skin rather then red sores
Here's another pic from just now

The uronema I had was only readily visible with a necropsy but my anthias were Bimac's. Not sure if the red would show through on the yellow anthias very well (beautiful fish, btw!). The external uronema is much easier to identify and treat imo. I was slow identifying and reacting and so lost 3 of my 7.

Bthomas · Mar 11, 2019

So I just checked ammonia in the quarantine (the badge was showing alert) and the ammonia is super high.. Like 2-4
So I definitely need to do a large water change I just don't know whether to keep the copper or not?
Would the ammonia level cause appetite suppression.

Or should I go ahead and transfer to clean (hopefully cycled) new quarantine tank that I have set up

Brew12 · Mar 11, 2019

Bthomas said:
So I just checked ammonia in the quarantine (the badge was showing alert) and the ammonia is super high.. Like 2-4
So I definitely need to do a large water change I just don't know whether to keep the copper or not?
Would the ammonia level cause appetite suppression.

Or should I go ahead and transfer to clean (hopefully cycled) new quarantine tank that I have set up

I would do the transfer and dose it with Metro since it is already set up.

HotRocks · Mar 11, 2019

Bthomas said:
So I just checked ammonia in the quarantine (the badge was showing alert) and the ammonia is super high.. Like 2-4
So I definitely need to do a large water change I just don't know whether to keep the copper or not?
Would the ammonia level cause appetite suppression.

Or should I go ahead and transfer to clean (hopefully cycled) new quarantine tank that I have set up

Yes I would get them out ASAP.

That is probably what was supressing appetite as well.

Bthomas · Mar 11, 2019

HotRocks said:
Yes I would get them out ASAP.

That is probably what was supressing appetite as well.

That said would it be better to just do a large water change and keep them in copper or transfer to new tank?
If I transfer do I need to start the 2 week metro treatment over or just do 2 more doses since that was all I had left

Brew12 · Mar 11, 2019

Bthomas said:
That said would it be better to just do a large water change and keep them in copper or transfer to new tank?
If I transfer do I need to start the 2 week metro treatment over or just do 2 more doses since that was all I had left

2 more doses. Metro doesn't stay in the water in the same way copper does. You are replace what is used, not building it up.

HotRocks · Mar 11, 2019

Bthomas said:
That said would it be better to just do a large water change and keep them in copper or transfer to new tank?
If I transfer do I need to start the 2 week metro treatment over or just do 2 more doses since that was all I had left

You only need to finish the last two doses of metro.

The decision you have to make is whether or not you want to pre-dose the new QT with copper or start over.

If it were me knowing there was ammonia present I would dose the new QT you are transferring the fish to to match the Cu level of current tank. If they start eating then you know it was ammonia, if they don't then you can lower the copper via WC.

If you have methalyne blue on hand a bath between the QTs would be a great idea since they have been exposed to ammonia.

Bthomas · Mar 11, 2019

HotRocks said:
You only need to finish the last two doses of metro.

The decision you have to make is whether or not you want to pre-dose the new QT with copper or start over.

If it were me knowing there was ammonia present I would dose the new QT you are transferring the fish to to match the Cu level of current tank. If they start eating then you know it was ammonia, if they don't then you can lower the copper via WC.

If you have methalyne blue on hand a bath between the QTs would be a great idea since they have been exposed to ammonia.

So if I predose the new quarantine with copper then I will only have to finish out the 2 week treatment that is left (9 more days) and then transfer them back to the first quarantine after taking it down and sterilizing correct?

HotRocks · Mar 11, 2019

Bthomas said:
So if I predose the new quarantine with copper then I will only have to finish out the 2 week treatment that is left (9 more days) and then transfer them back to the first quarantine after taking it down and sterilizing correct?

That is correct.

Brew12 · Mar 11, 2019

HotRocks said:
You only need to finish the last two doses of metro.

The decision you have to make is whether or not you want to pre-dose the new QT with copper or start over.

If it were me knowing there was ammonia present I would dose the new QT you are transferring the fish to to match the Cu level of current tank. If they start eating then you know it was ammonia, if they don't then you can lower the copper via WC.

If you have methalyne blue on hand a bath between the QTs would be a great idea since they have been exposed to ammonia.

Since this is a transfer, you would agree that he can move the fish now and raise copper after the fish are in as long as it is done in the first 18 hours, right? The copper won't be needed until a parasite drops off a fish, encysts, and hatches which should take at least 24 hours.

Brew12 · Mar 11, 2019

Brew12 said:
Since this is a transfer, you would agree that he can move the fish now and raise copper after the fish are in as long as it is done in the first 18 hours, right? The copper won't be needed until a parasite drops off a fish, encysts, and hatches which should take at least 24 hours.

My concern is not waiting to get the fish away from the high ammonia. I would get them out ASAP.

Bthomas · Mar 11, 2019

Brew12 said:
My concern is not waiting to get the fish away from the high ammonia. I would get them out ASAP.

Oh I can dose the new tank now to bring it up to therapudic level before I put them in there. I should be able to figure the dose pretty easily based on what I put in the other.
I was also going to ask, should I give them an acriflavin dip between transfer?