Understanding Burnt Tips in my Reef

[erk]

Were you testing phosphates and nitrates a day after each nitrate addition?

I was testing PO4, not NO3. I wasn't seeing a drop even though I was steadily increasing the NO3 addition. I think the biggest issue was testing the NO3 using a test kit that is accurate enough. Takes so long to test using the Red Sea kit.

Any update on your system Erk?

To update this thread, my alk level dropped to 7.3dKH and then kind of stopped. So I'm just holding there and will let it drop once uptake improves. I reduced vodka dosing to 3mL. This resulted in an increase of NO3. I attribute the rise in PO4 to stopping GFO and reduced carbon dosing. NO3 was at 5ppm per the API kit. Will be testing everything tomorrow. PO4 has risen to .141 ppm per the latest test. I was worried the rocks would still be leaching PO4, but it appears that is no longer an issue.

I've lost most of my hard corals so far. I kinda expected this with the changes to the system. I'm hoping the few that are still left will hold out and eventually rebound. Algae growth has changed. Whereas I would usually get hair algae and green film algae, now those are waning and I'm getting more bubble algae growth. I attribute this to the increased PO4 and NO3 availability. I still get the brown film algae. It's not bacteria as it really adheres well if I don't clean it off. As a whole though, "pest" algae has declined.

Coralline algae growth has increased. Prior to the changes, it was growing well, but not rampant. Now, I'd say it is more rampant in its growth. For good or bad. I do take this as a good sign that lowering alkalinity was the right choice. Not sure if the increased nutrients are helping it, but they aren't hurting it.

I will be testing alk, PO4, and NO3 tomorrow. If I see that NO3 is rising, then I'm going to increase vodka by 1 mL to try and hold at about 5 ppm.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

My po4 and no3 went way up when I stopped gfo and nopox but I didn’t freak out because the corals started looking happier. Within a month they started to come down. So much that I had to take my skimmer offline. I just tested and my no3 was 5 with salifert. My po4 is

No carbon dosing
No gfo
No skimmer

It takes sometime but they will start coming down. But if they don’t come down, remember happy corals with high nutrients is better than dying corals with perfect nutrient parameters.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

Sorry to hear you have lost most of you hard corals. I tried the red sea nitrate kit but didnt like it as much as salifert.

 

[erk]

Sorry to hear you have lost most of you hard corals. I tried the red sea nitrate kit but didnt like it as much as salifert.

I'll look up the Salifert kit. I want something better than the API, but not as much a headache as the Red Sea kit.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

I'll look up the Salifert kit. I want something better than the API, but not as much a headache as the Red Sea kit.

Salifert is easy

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Nyos makes a good no3 test as well

 

[erk]

Update: No longer dosing vodka to the tank. Been this way for about half a week or so. Been holding alkalinity at around 7dKH for a week. Initially the SPS were looking better and improving, but recently they started to get thin flesh again. Colors are holding or improving and PE is good. But the flesh is thin. Almost like they are starving, but NO3 and PO4 are at about 20ppm and .25ppm respectively. So not sure what is up now. I have had to make adjustments as the uptake of two part increases. But this was a .2 dKH correction. I did have an accidental .5 dKH correction to 7.3dKH on the 14th.

In the process of writing this update, I think I have discovered my problem. The temperature probe I have been using, the ENV-TMP from Atlas Scientific, has shifted on me. The relationship between voltage and temperature appears to no longer be linear. I thought the tank was running at 76-78°F, but really was more like 70-72°F. Possibly an undiscovered side-effect of the damaged pH probe. Shorted temp sensor? Who knows. I'm going to run the heaters on their built in thermostats while I search for a new temperature probe.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Update: No longer dosing vodka to the tank. Been this way for about half a week or so. Been holding alkalinity at around 7dKH for a week. Initially the SPS were looking better and improving, but recently they started to get thin flesh again. Colors are holding or improving and PE is good. But the flesh is thin. Almost like they are starving, but NO3 and PO4 are at about 20ppm and .25ppm respectively. So not sure what is up now. I have had to make adjustments as the uptake of two part increases. But this was a .2 dKH correction. I did have an accidental .5 dKH correction to 7.3dKH on the 14th.

In the process of writing this update, I think I have discovered my problem. The temperature probe I have been using, the ENV-TMP from Atlas Scientific, has shifted on me. The relationship between voltage and temperature appears to no longer be linear. I thought the tank was running at 76-78°F, but really was more like 70-72°F. Possibly an undiscovered side-effect of the damaged pH probe. Shorted temp sensor? Who knows. I'm going to run the heaters on their built in thermostats while I search for a new temperature probe.

I wouldn’t stress about 0.5 dKH. My dKH drops 0.8-1.0 everyday. Do you know the par on the “starved” looking corals?

 

[erk]

I wouldn’t stress about 0.5 dKH. My dKH drops 0.8-1.0 everyday. Do you know the par on the “starved” looking corals?

Last time I tested was several months ago. So somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 or so. I lowered them in the last day since I thought they might be getting too much light. But that was before I realized my temperature probe was off. Now I'm seriously thinking this is all temperature related. I'm going to let the temperature come back up to 78°F and see what happens.

 

[Dugless]

In my experience corals starving had less to do with the NO3 and PO4 numbers everyone throws around. I think it has more to do with the unmeasureables like bacteria that corals farm to feed themselves. My tank took 10 months to hit the corner of success. Just keep things stable and the process will balance. I think tinkering and chasing just gets in the way.

 

[erk]

It would appear the biggest issue I had was temperature. I have no idea how long the tank was running low or what temperature it was running at, but my estimates put it in the upper 60s. I knew when I stuck my hand in the tank it felt cold, but I thought this was because the tank was running in the low 80s beforehand. Tank has been holding at 78°F for 5 days now. Saw my scissortail damsels spawn for the first time in months. They normally spawn every month. The temperature shock, going from 70-78°F in the course of a couple hours, really did a number on the corals. Everything, including softies, responded badly. But today is the first day things are looking good.

I'm going to continue holding my alkalinity around 7dKH, but I have increased my vodka dosage back to 3mL. The cyanobacteria exploded once I turned off carbon dosing completely. I realize carbon dosing isn't for everyone, but I prefer it. I look at it as another food source to provide the tank with. But I'm feeding the bacteria, the very bottom of the food chain.

In my experience corals starving had less to do with the NO3 and PO4 numbers everyone throws around. I think it has more to do with the unmeasureables like bacteria that corals farm to feed themselves. My tank took 10 months to hit the corner of success. Just keep things stable and the process will balance. I think tinkering and chasing just gets in the way.

I agree. I prefer to encourage bacteria growth, hence the use of carbon dosing and not running filter socks. I have a lot of free floating "stuff" in the water column and I see this as free food. I know it works because I have so much filter feeding fauna growing in my tank. I'm sure I would not be able to sustain their growth otherwise.

 

[erk]

I'd like to update this thread one last time with a status on the tank.

It seems the primary reason I was having so many problems with stony corals was my tank temperature was all over the place. This was due to the temperature probe going bad. I must have had the tank running at 65-70°F for at least 3 months. Since bringing the temp back up, everything has rebounded more or less.

As for the advice on reducing alkalinity and discontinuing carbon dosing. As things have improved, I have noticed that any time the alkalinity rose to 7.5dKH, CaCO3 building animals have improved while when it drops to 7 or lower, they react very badly. My attempts to keep it at or below 7dKH led to the eventual deaths of several stony corals. Now that I keep it above 7, closer to 7.5dKH, consumption has increased and the STN of the last remaining acro has stopped. Very surprised by this. Hoping it eventually rebounds, but not holding my breath. Coralline algae has exploded during this time. I have so many varieties growing now as well. I think my new goal is to hold it around 7.5dKH.

When it comes to carbon dosing, stopping carbon dosing led to an enormous crash of my bacteria population. Portions of my sand turned black. I've never had cyano since the early tank uglies, but now it is everywhere. NO3 spiked up to 25ppm, with no slowing down. I decided to start carbon dosing again and while the cyano is still around, NO3 is slowly declining. Tested today and it was at or below 10ppm. PO4 is holding steady around .1-.15ppm. The bacteria population is rebounding, but it will probably be months before I will attempt to keep SPS. Might try some LPS in the next couple weeks. Just unfortunate that my tank has been thru almost a year of slumps/crashes. All because I damaged a pH probe and never noticed.

Positive is that I've begun revamping my controller and updating aspects of the tank. Overall improvements that will help me continue reef keeping with less headaches. The main take away from all this is that you are the only one that knows the ins/outs of your tank. When something is wrong, don't just calibrate a sensor and hope its all good. Check all your equipment thoroughly. Pull it out of the tank and test it. Every pump, heater, probe, etc. A single failure, especially electrical, can damage so much more than we expect. Not sure if all the equipment failures were due to the pH probe, but at this point, I've had two Hydor nano pumps die, the Eheim pump on the Vertex zeolite reactor fail(the zeolite rocks turned so black because of this), and a Atlas Scientific temperature probe go haywire. I replaced the Hydor nano pumps with Sicce powerheads. Pulled the Vertex reactor and replaced the temperature probe with a thermowell inline to the pump return an a DS18B20 temp probe installed that doesn't touch the water. Also replaced the old skimmer with a brand new Curve 7. Hopefully things continue to improve.

 

[MrObscura]

I personally aim for the params in the parameters of the masters article(https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/tank-parameters-of-some-masters.263/) . Ball Park, no chasing. Though I am trying to get po4 down since dirtying up my tank to combat dinos. They're a bit high at 0.25.

Anyway, it includes the parameters of the biggest names in the indusrty and they run their tanks with these averages... Alk 8.19, Ca 419. Mg 1361, NO3 18.77, PO4 .18. Not a single one of them run anything near as low nutrient system. I think that tells you something.

Its an excellent article and my tanks doing much better no since I got passed the idea that keeping no3/po4 is the way to go. All that lead to was starved corals and dinos.

Flow is also very important, more so than lighting. Even the pickiest acros will thrive in what's considered lower par with nutrients and flow.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

I personally aim for the params in the parameters of the masters article(https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/tank-parameters-of-some-masters.263/) . Ball Park, no chasing. Though I am trying to get po4 down since dirtying up my tank to combat dinos. They're a bit high at 0.25.

Anyway, it includes the parameters of the biggest names in the indusrty and they run their tanks with these averages... Alk 8.19, Ca 419. Mg 1361, NO3 18.77, PO4 .18. Not a single one of them run anything near as low nutrient system. I think that tells you something.

Its an excellent article and my tanks doing much better no since I got passed the idea that keeping no3/po4 is the way to go. All that lead to was starved corals and dinos.

Flow is also very important, more so than lighting. Even the pickiest acros will thrive in what's considered lower par with nutrients and flow.

I completely agree with most of your philosophy. I believe high quality par (at least 250 for acros) is more important than flow, but I completely agree worrying about and reacting to no3 and po4 causes more problems than just ignoring them. The only burnt tips or stn I’ve ever experienced in 20 years of this hobby was when I was chasing “ideal” no3 and po4. I had perfect numbers and dead acros. Now I have perfect acros and my no3 and po4 are all over the place.

 

[MrObscura]

Check out WWCs 293g display, most of the acros in that tank only get around 150 par max. Some are even in the low 100s. Tank gets about 300 par at the waters surface lit by radions.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Check out WWCs 293g display, most of the acros in that tank only get around 150 par max. Some are even in the low 100s. Tank gets about 300 par at the waters surface lit by radions.

I’ve seen the video and Randy points out that the higher light demand acros are near the top and it’s important to note that the wwc tanks have 10.5 hours of peak lighting, and hourly feedings.

The corals in my tank are happier with 250 plus par

 

[MrObscura]

They have a 12.5 hour total photo period with a 4-5 hour peak actually. I run their ai prime schedule and personally target 150-250 for acros believing all will thrive in that range if everything else is in line.

I wasn't trying to convince you to lower your lights, just pointing out that many long held beliefs in this hobby simply aren't beneficial and that just like nutrients, which don't need to be near 0 as often believed, lighting doesn't need to be extreme. People used to, and some still do, think acros absolutely need 500+ par.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

They have a 12.5 hour total photo period with a 4-5 hour peak actually. I run their ai prime schedule and personally target 150-250 for acros believing all will thrive in that range if everything else is in line.

I wasn't trying to convince you to lower your lights, just pointing out that many long held beliefs in this hobby simply aren't beneficial and that just like nutrients, which don't need to be near 0 as often believed, lighting doesn't need to be extreme. People used to, and some still do, think acros absolutely need 500+ par.

What’s their ai program? Curious because I use hydra 52’s

 

[MrObscura]

Their prime schedule is an 11 hour total photo period with no ramp up or down. First 4 hours are uv, v, rb, b at 100% with r, g, w at 10%, then r, g, w turn off with the rest staying at 100% for 7 hours.

I added a 1 hour ramp up though, just due to personal preference.

 

[erk]

I personally aim for the params in the parameters of the masters article(https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/tank-parameters-of-some-masters.263/) . Ball Park, no chasing. Though I am trying to get po4 down since dirtying up my tank to combat dinos. They're a bit high at 0.25.

Anyway, it includes the parameters of the biggest names in the indusrty and they run their tanks with these averages... Alk 8.19, Ca 419. Mg 1361, NO3 18.77, PO4 .18. Not a single one of them run anything near as low nutrient system. I think that tells you something.

Its an excellent article and my tanks doing much better no since I got passed the idea that keeping no3/po4 is the way to go. All that lead to was starved corals and dinos.

Flow is also very important, more so than lighting. Even the pickiest acros will thrive in what's considered lower par with nutrients and flow.

Just as a clarification, I don't chase numbers, never have. My tank was having an issue and so I began testing certain parameters to try and find that issue. The only parameter I have consistently tested, and I think everyone consistently tests/should test, is alkalinity. It tells you everything about the consumption of Ca and CO3 in your tank and how you should adapt. I leave Ca at whatever it is as long as it is above 400. I have seen what happens if it falls below 400. I keep Mg above 1300, because again I've seen what happens if I don't. I occasionally test these parameters to check they haven't changed too much. More of preventive maintenance. Once things have settled down again, I will suspend testing NO3 and PO4. I only do this because I eventually want to reduce the vodka dosage to the maintenance dose.

I agree that flow is far more important than we tend to give it credit. Hence the reason I run a gyre XF150 at 50% and a MP10 in reef crest at almost 100%. I disagree with your statement on lighting. Just because they live and grow in lower par doesn't mean they are thriving. I've seen tanks where people placed the corals in too low of par and you can tell the SPS are unhappy by their growth pattern. They grow long spindly spires up and up. Higher flow would make these thicker spires, but you get far less branching/spreading.

Light, flow, food, and stable parameters are all equally important. Just pick a place in the livable range and let your tank settle into it.