Understanding Burnt Tips in my Reef

[markalot]

I've got to say, I'm very surprised by the amount of negativity towards carbon dosing. I've been carbon dosing almost the entire time I've been in this hobby. It is what allows me to run my tank without a ton of filtration media. Based on all the push to get rid of it though, I'm going to reduce my carbon dosing until I can turn it off. But that will take months since quitting cold turkey will kill a tank.

As for the GFO, again, this is being run to deal with the aftermath of my crash. I'll take it offline once I can see that my PO4 doesn't rise very quickly. I have no desire to run GFO as my permanent method. As @markalot keeps stressing, the reef roids may raise my PO4 and give me false readings, I'll reduce the reef roids to twice a week. Probably feed them the day after I do my testing.

You're the best judge knowing what you know about your tank, all we can do is offer what worked for us. I am not sure reef roids raises PO4, rather it seems to interfere with the test (hanna ULR). I would test high PO4 12 hours after feeding, test again that evening and get much lower values.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

I think doing too much kills corals too. If you refer to my build thread, it will give you a bit more info on why I currently test PO4.

I read through your tank build thread, and I’m not trying to sound rude or sarcastic, but it doesn’t seem like carbon dosing or running gfo has worked for you. It seems like you’ve had a lot of problems with sps looking ok, then you’d drive down your nutrients because they were testing high and then the sps would suffer and so on and so on. I’ve had conversations with many vendors and collectors and the majority of them don’t feed any “coral food”. All they do is feed the fish appropriately and the corals are supplemented with fish poop, and they don’t feed the fish that much. Jason Fox feeds his fish ONCE a week. Reefersdirect only fed their sps tanks 3 days a week. 90% of sps nutrition is provided from sugars produced in the photosynthesis process, and that’s non negotiable. They must have a quality and stable spectrum and intensity. All the reef roids in the world can’t compensate for that. You’ve mentioned a couple times that carbon dosing and gfo is the only way you can feed heavily and manage your nutrients, but that sounds to me like you’re over feeding. Your tank isn’t huge and neither is your fish population, so you shouldn’t need to be feeding so much that your nutrients rise so much. All that food is probably causing ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate spikes before the carbon/gfo breaks it down.
If lowering your alk doesn’t cure your problems, I would stop carbon dosing and gfo, do some bi-weekly 25-30% water changes, limit your feedings to just enough to let you fish get a couple bites.
I set up my first reef tank in 1999. I have a pair of clownfish that are 18 years old. I never had any problems growing corals until last year when I got back into sps and I started worrying about nitrates and phosphates. My tank is only 50 gallons and my acros are colorful and growing very fast, but more importantly they’re not withering away. All I do is feed the fish 5 times a week, grow some chaeto in a cheap diy reactor and run my skimmer 12 hours a day. Sps don’t need all the “coral foods”. Keep it simple.
Good luck

 

[JPergamo]

I'm a dirty water advocate. I overfeed, I overskim, gfo caused me nothing but horrid grief whenever I tried to use it. I've never carbon dosed because I've never needed to. Nitrates sit around 5 phos sits at around .32. I run alk between 8.5-9. Everything is fat happy and growing. Stop chasing numbers so much especially if it is visibly causing problems. I had to learn that the hard way. Good luck to you

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

I'm a dirty water advocate. I overfeed, I overskim, gfo caused me nothing but horrid grief whenever I tried to use it. I've never carbon dosed because I've never needed to. Nitrates sit around 5 phos sits at around .32. I run alk between 8.5-9. Everything is fat happy and growing. Stop chasing numbers so much especially if it is visibly causing problems. I had to learn that the hard way. Good luck to you

What’s your lighting?

 

[JPergamo]

What’s your lighting?

Just a newer SB reef lights setup. A 5 foot LED over a 180 wifi. "Upgraded" Chinese lights if you will.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

What is your nitrate level while you are carbon dosing normally? If its close to zero I have always had better luck using nitrate additions to reduce phosphate more than using gfo while carbon dosing. I would just quit the gfo and start lowering my alk levels and see how that works out. I am with you and I am really confused with all the people hating on carbon dosing these days. I think its really come from people who mainly used it wrong or didn't understand it right to begin with. There are still tons of reefers out there who use it religiously with amazing success.

 

[erk]

What is your nitrate level while you are carbon dosing normally? If its close to zero I have always had better luck using nitrate additions to reduce phosphate more than using gfo while carbon dosing. I would just quit the gfo and start lowering my alk levels and see how that works out. I am with you and I am really confused with all the people hating on carbon dosing these days. I think its really come from people who mainly used it wrong or didn't understand it right to begin with. There are still tons of reefers out there who use it religiously with amazing success.

I tried the NO3 addition for about 3 weeks to reduce PO4, but it didn't do much. I agree about stopping GFO, I just don't want to stop anything too quickly. As you said before, doing too much always ends badly.

Currently I'm focusing on reducing my alkalinity to 7dKH. At the same time I'm reducing my vodka dosage at the rate of 1mL per week. I'm going to test NO3 during this time to see if it moves at all. As for stopping GFO, my plan is to test PO4 again on Wednesday and if it is about the same, I'm going to turn off the reactor.

 

[erk]

I read through your tank build thread, and I’m not trying to sound rude or sarcastic, but it doesn’t seem like carbon dosing or running gfo has worked for you. It seems like you’ve had a lot of problems with sps looking ok, then you’d drive down your nutrients because they were testing high and then the sps would suffer and so on and so on. I’ve had conversations with many vendors and collectors and the majority of them don’t feed any “coral food”. All they do is feed the fish appropriately and the corals are supplemented with fish poop, and they don’t feed the fish that much. Jason Fox feeds his fish ONCE a week. Reefersdirect only fed their sps tanks 3 days a week. 90% of sps nutrition is provided from sugars produced in the photosynthesis process, and that’s non negotiable. They must have a quality and stable spectrum and intensity. All the reef roids in the world can’t compensate for that. You’ve mentioned a couple times that carbon dosing and gfo is the only way you can feed heavily and manage your nutrients, but that sounds to me like you’re over feeding. Your tank isn’t huge and neither is your fish population, so you shouldn’t need to be feeding so much that your nutrients rise so much. All that food is probably causing ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate spikes before the carbon/gfo breaks it down.
If lowering your alk doesn’t cure your problems, I would stop carbon dosing and gfo, do some bi-weekly 25-30% water changes, limit your feedings to just enough to let you fish get a couple bites.
I set up my first reef tank in 1999. I have a pair of clownfish that are 18 years old. I never had any problems growing corals until last year when I got back into sps and I started worrying about nitrates and phosphates. My tank is only 50 gallons and my acros are colorful and growing very fast, but more importantly they’re not withering away. All I do is feed the fish 5 times a week, grow some chaeto in a cheap diy reactor and run my skimmer 12 hours a day. Sps don’t need all the “coral foods”. Keep it simple.
Good luck

I'm not sure you fully read my build thread. The tank is just about 2 yrs old now. Almost half of that time has been me recovering from a crash due to a cracked pH probe. I lost almost all my coral and several fish. I never ran GFO on this tank until the last month when my PO4 tested at 1ppm and I couldn't get it to come down. Prior to the crash, I finally reached a sweet spot. Coral were flourishing and my fish were fat and happy. I feed a lot because that is what keeps my fish happy. When I don't feed, they become aggressive, they get stressed, they start to compete and inevitably the weakest will die. I like my coral, but my fish come first and I will do what I can to work around that.

Thanks to all the advice I've received, I've got a plan. Reduce alkalinity, reduce carbon dosing, take GFO offline. These will take time.

One thing I will not do is reduce the amount of food I feed my fish. I will continue to feed them hikari pellets a couple times a day, nori everyday or every other day, and LRS every night. And I will carbon dose or whatever I need to do to control my EXCESS nutrient levels to accommodate that feeding schedule.

 

[Fishfinder]

I would stop the reef roids.

Everyone is debating about the high PO4. Carbon dosing, GFO, leave it, drop it. Stop the high PO4 at the source, reef roids

 

[erk]

I would stop the reef roids.

Everyone is debating about the high PO4. Carbon dosing, GFO, leave it, drop it. Stop the high PO4 at the source, reef roids

I was thinking of going to twice a week. But I can stop it completely for now. I'll stop for now until I get things in order, then reevaluate using it again in the future.

 

[Fishfinder]

If your using it that much its definitely causing Po4 issues. i would stop it completely for a while and see what happens.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

I'm not sure you fully read my build thread. The tank is just about 2 yrs old now. Almost half of that time has been me recovering from a crash due to a cracked pH probe. I lost almost all my coral and several fish. I never ran GFO on this tank until the last month when my PO4 tested at 1ppm and I couldn't get it to come down. Prior to the crash, I finally reached a sweet spot. Coral were flourishing and my fish were fat and happy. I feed a lot because that is what keeps my fish happy. When I don't feed, they become aggressive, they get stressed, they start to compete and inevitably the weakest will die. I like my coral, but my fish come first and I will do what I can to work around that.

Thanks to all the advice I've received, I've got a plan. Reduce alkalinity, reduce carbon dosing, take GFO offline. These will take time.

One thing I will not do is reduce the amount of food I feed my fish. I will continue to feed them hikari pellets a couple times a day, nori everyday or every other day, and LRS every night. And I will carbon dose or whatever I need to do to control my EXCESS nutrient levels to accommodate that feeding schedule.

I read it all. I was referencing last March and April when you’re having po4 spikes to 0.9, and I didn’t see anything that would classify as flourishing. There was some encrusting of sps but then they’d get wiped out. I won’t even consider my tank as flourishing until I have wall to wall colonies, but that takes time. It sounds like you have a solid starting plan with lowering your alk and reducing the carbon dosing. I, and many others here, know the mental stress you’re going through. If x is happening that means I should do y and so on, and then things don’t get better and more often get worse. I sincerely hope you find a formula that works.

 

[Ashley Kekua]

Do GFO take out Alkalinity decrease more after add?

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Do GFO take out Alkalinity decrease more after add?

I don’t know what you’re trying to ask here Ash.

 

[Shooter6]

Those who run gfo or carbon dose, do you vacuum your sand bed when doing water changes?
Ive been in and out of the hobby since 1987, and have seen many changes occur in that time.
I personally do not run either. I have an underrated skimmer cheato/hair algae. My phosphate measures a rock solid 0.039 and nitrates near undetectable both via redsea pro test. I had a macro algae die off last month and my nitrates got up to 8ppm without any issues.
I do 20% water changes once a month or so, and VACUUM my sand bed when i do.
I feed heavy. Reef roids,rods reef frenzy, mysis, fish eggs,oyster feast, nori,ect. No pellet or flake though. Right now my system doesnt have fish in it, only cleanup crew. Its been this way for 2.5 months.
I am wondering if the need for gfo/ carbon dosing can be eliminated with just adding the sand bed vacuuming?

 

[erk]

Those who run gfo or carbon dose, do you vacuum your sand bed when doing water changes?
Ive been in and out of the hobby since 1987, and have seen many changes occur in that time.
I personally do not run either. I have an underrated skimmer cheato/hair algae. My phosphate measures a rock solid 0.039 and nitrates near undetectable both via redsea pro test. I had a macro algae die off last month and my nitrates got up to 8ppm without any issues.
I do 20% water changes once a month or so, and VACUUM my sand bed when i do.
I feed heavy. Reef roids,rods reef frenzy, mysis, fish eggs,oyster feast, nori,ect. No pellet or flake though. Right now my system doesnt have fish in it, only cleanup crew. Its been this way for 2.5 months.
I am wondering if the need for gfo/ carbon dosing can be eliminated with just adding the sand bed vacuuming?

Prior to my system crash, I didn't run GFO either. I didn't run GFO until the last month and two nights ago I went ahead and disconnected it completely just to see what will happen. I know this is dangerous as too many changes can kill hard corals, but oh well at this point. My PO4 as of last night was .074 ppm, up from .054 ppm. Tested with the Hanna Phosphorus tester. I don't vacuum my sand, but I did recently vacuum most of it out just so I can turn up the flow.

I think people can avoid vacuuming their sand bed if they have creatures that turn over the sand bed on a regular basis. If there aren't enough sand bed detritivores then I would think you need to manually aerate the sand bed or just don't have a sand bed(which is kinda where I'm at now).

As for carbon dosing, I've probably been carbon dosing and didn't need to. When I think about it, I have a ton of rock in the tank and a very healthy bacteria population, I doubt I need to try and overdrive that population to reduce NO3 or PO4. The tank is two years old and should be well established at this point. The amount of microfauna in the tank is proof of that. If anything, I'm probably still carbon dosing at the rate I have been because I've just become complacent about it. I don't want to stop carbon dosing completely because I like the increased production of bacteria, but I am planning on dropping my carbon dosage to 0.5 - 1 mL/day. It was originally at 6 mL/day.

 

[Shooter6]

I have 2 sand shifting starfish, a diamond goby, 3 horseshoe crabs and some of the sand burrowing snails as part of my clean up crew. I still vacuum mine and get a good amount of muck each time. My theory is that muck builds up and is a phosphate/nitrate sink and leaches out into the water column, causing the high test numbers.

Ive done everything from under gravel filters, deep sand bed , no sand ect.

 

[reefmutt]

Hey Erk, I just read through this thread and have not looked at your build thread.
Looking at your spreadsheet, I see that you either don’t test n very often or don’t record the results and the only result I see is 0.
If this is the case, that n is 0, I believe the root of your issues is that your system has been nitrate limited. This is why you have had such high po4 and why you’ve had difficulty controlling it.
This is probably due to your carbon dosing.
You mentioned, I think, that you tried dosing n for a while without too much success. Maybe you didn’t dose it for long enough to see an effect..
Your alk may be a bit in the high side but not dramatically... I’ve always targeted mine near 7dk with great results..
If I were in your shoes, I would back off but not stop carbon dosing until you start getting a reading for n in the 1-4 range.. and I would probably not stop gfo complete either, but watch po4 closely (I see you already do) because you might find you can control it much more easily once n is easily measurable..
I have always had the same problem in my system with difficult to control po4 dues to old rock I set the tank up with..
I really don’t think carbon spring itself causes burnt tips but thenimbalance it can produce can stress the sps and cause them to stop growing or produce skeleton poorly..
I also noticed that more recently that mag has been climbing while your ca is a touch high (along with your alk marginally elevated)..
the nutrient imbalance, paired with the gfo making p swing and the slightly elevated minerals may be what is stressing the sps...
If this were my situation, I would do a series of water chances to balance out minerals (preferably with a lower alk salt) and also, as mentioned above, reduce carbon dosing a bit and watch po4.. maybe try to use the gfo in a more passive way- like using smaller amounts more frequently..
Sometimes Mother Nature needs to be gently coaxed rather than pushed around..
I think you are in the right track, you just need to make gentler changes..

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Any update on your system Erk?

 

[Graffiti Spot]

I tried the NO3 addition for about 3 weeks to reduce PO4, but it didn't do much. I agree about stopping GFO, I just don't want to stop anything too quickly. As you said before, doing too much always ends badly.

Currently I'm focusing on reducing my alkalinity to 7dKH. At the same time I'm reducing my vodka dosage at the rate of 1mL per week. I'm going to test NO3 during this time to see if it moves at all. As for stopping GFO, my plan is to test PO4 again on Wednesday and if it is about the same, I'm going to turn off the reactor.

Were you testing phosphates and nitrates a day after each nitrate addition?