Black molly test?** This information was originally posted here: https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/black-molly-quarantine.55/ **
Preface - Freshwater (FW) black mollies have been used for years in saltwater aquariums for algae control. However, this write-up will focus on their potential for identifying marine fish diseases present in a display tank (DT) and also quarantine tank (QT). The most important detail is to ensure you are using Freshwater black mollies for this purpose. Two reasons:
- Evidence of ectoparasites (e.g. ich, velvet, brook) will show as white spots on a fish or translucent for flukes. This makes them easier to see on a black colored fish.
- A freshwater black molly will have no acquired immunity to marine diseases, thus making it probable for visible symptoms to show. (In this study, a stable infection of Cryptocaryon irritans was maintained for 2 years using black mollies.)
Acclimation - A slow acclimation period is best. I prefer to setup a simple 10 gal tank (pic below) and convert them to saltwater over a week. Most (freshwater) diseases the mollies were carrying will be eradicated once they are in full seawater. If you happen to see white stringy poo coming out of any of them, food soak API General Cure or Fenbendazole as outlined here. Mollies are primarily herbivores, prefer low flow and have other requirements explained here: Keeping, Breeding, and Raising Saltwater Mollies
The larger black mollies (Sailfin or Balloon) hold up better than the smaller ones in a saltwater environment.
Testing a Fallow DT - The only reliable way to eliminate a fish disease from a reef tank is to starve it out by going fallow: Fallow periods: Going Fishless
You can test to see if a fallow period has been successful by using 2-3 black mollies before introducing your QTd fish back into the aquarium. I advise a 2 week test period before giving the all-clear. You can house the mollies in an acclimation box or low flow area of your sump; or let them swim freely in your DT (they are easy to catch). If evidence of disease presents itself on any one of the mollies, they all need to be removed, treated and the fallow period restarts. Furthermore, these same mollies may no longer be suitable for testing marine diseases in the future. They are now SW fish who have encountered (and possibly started to build up immunity to) a marine disease.
QT Usage - Certain fish (e.g. anthias, mandarins, wrasses) are notoriously sensitive to medications such as copper and Prazipro. This can make it difficult to chemoprophylactically treat them for Ich, velvet, flukes, etc. Compounding the problem is wrasses, clownfish, dragonets and other species have a thick mucous coat which often hides visible physical evidence (i.e. white dots) of parasites. What to do? Black mollies to the rescue!
By quarantining black mollies alongside, this allows you to use them as "canary fish" to detect the presence of disease even if none of the other fish in QT are showing symptoms. This can be done via observation in a medication-free environment. However, I stress the following:
Concerns - I understand some will have ethical concerns about using mollies as "canary fish", and I am sensitive to that. The more I research & experiment, the more I find there is no perfect solution when it comes to quarantining our prized specimens. However, using FW black mollies to test for SW diseases is an accepted practice by Marine Biologists and public aquarium curators. And I feel the science is solid to extend this practice to also include QT environments, for those hobbyists who prefer to just observe and/or less inclined to use meds as a prophylaxis. At the end of the day, the objective of QT is to introduce disease-free fish into the DT by any means possible.
- The observation period does not start until mollies are added to the QT. This should happen as soon as (or even just before) fish are added. Because you are having to wait for any parasites to drop off, encyst and then release free swimmers to infect the mollies observation time should be 4-6 weeks.
- Be aware that not all SW fish are suitable tank mates for mollies. They are easily bullied or even eaten by large aggressive species (e.g. triggers, groupers, eels). So, the mollies may need to be housed in an acclimation box or by using a tank divider.
- Watch the mollies (and all the other fish) for symptoms of disease every single day. So, this is not a reliable method for those with busy schedules, or who will have to leave the QT unobserved due to work/vacation. Watch for visible physical symptoms to manifest (e.g. white dots/splotches), and also behavioral symptoms of disease. Heavy breathing, lack of appetite, scratching, lethargy, head twitching, swimming into the flow of a powerhead are all things which can forewarn you that trouble is on the way.
- Once symptoms of disease have been observed/detected, all fish in the QT must be treated ASAP. This includes the mollies! And again, any mollies who have encountered a SW pathogen should no longer be considered viable for testing marine diseases in the future.
- This method is less reliable for detecting flukes, since those often infect the gills and are more difficult to see when they crawl over the scales. (And they would crawl pretty fast over a small molly.) Still, a molly (dead or alive) can be checked for flukes at any time by performing a FW dip. This is going to sound harsh, but better to FW dip a hardy molly than subject a more delicate specimen to the same test.
However, I stress that once you buy FW black mollies you have a moral obligation to care for them the same as any other fish. They are not "throwaway fish" to be discarded after they have served a purpose. Mollies are "reef safe" algae eaters and adapt well to a reef environment. Or they can be housed in a quiet sump area (e.g. refugium) or as semi-permanent QT inhabitants (until a disease pops up.) You also have the option of just converting them back to full freshwater. However, I urge you to care for them yourself, or rehome them to someone with a dedicated FW tank. Sending them back to a LFS leaves open the possibility that another reefer may purchase them for the same reason, and those mollies might fail to test positive for a disease which they have already been exposed to.
Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum)
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tastyfish
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I've not seen any evidence of Amyloodinium dying off whilst viable hosts are present. I have however, seen multiple cases of fish being added back after an insufficient fallow period or no fallow period at all and a second outbreak occurring.
As a dinoflagellate, Amyoodinium's lifecycle is faster than Cryptocaryon. Partial immunity to cryptocaryon (let's call it resistance) has been observed in the lab after a great many cycles (Can't remember the exact number). However fish remain carriers during this time, able to infect other fish. I would suggest the same is true with velvet, but haven't seen a paper which confirms this.
I would ensure all fish are removed, use the maximum fallow period for ciliates (74 days for Cryptocaryon) and treat any surviving fish with an effective treatment in a QT, even if they do not show symptoms.
Zionas
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I’m afraid having a separate QT system may not be an option for me because my DT’s taking up all the space in my apartment. My LFS has said that I can take any sick fish to them for treatment. The best way for me, until I can get a QT system, is just to select the healthiest specimens and just hope that fate is on my side.
ThRoewer
Valuable Member
I'm afraid that not having a QT is a particularly bad idea that will lead to nothing but sorrow and despair. Lack of space is an excuse! QT's are temporary and small (10 gallon always was enough for me) and can be put up everywhere: kitchen counter, hallway, bedroom,... you name it.
And I wouldn't trust any LFS to hold my fish for a day, let alone treat them.
You can hope for the best but I can assure you, in the end, Murphy's Law always prevails.
Qasimja
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so hes supposed to live in a 1 bedroom apartment surrounded by aquariums? lol i was joking but you shouldn't speak on other peoples situations if everyone had the money and space and knowhow to run quarantine tanks they would but it always doesn't work out that way
Only need one qt tank and patience. Petco sells tanks for cheap and the meds are no more expensive then quality fish food. Its a matter of time wiling to invest vs cost of convenience for me.
ThRoewer
Valuable Member
I have kept QTs at the window of my living room, next to the sump, hanged inside the display, and even stacked on top of my display at times. So I know cramped conditions.
If you don't have space for a 5 or 10 gallon QT you either need to scale down your display to make the space or not have a reef tank in the first place.
There is simply no valid excuse for not having a QT.
tastyfish
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If your LFS can treat and hold them for the fallow period, then that is a good option to take (so long as you trust their biosecurity as they will have a lot of fish coming in infected from wholesale, so you'd need an isolated system).
What is the number, size and species of fish you have? QT's don't need to be expensive, or large. You can also use egg crate to divide a tank to deal with aggressive tangs etc.
Obviously I don't know your situation and actual space, so if the LFS can treat and give you dedicated system for the rest of the fallow period, then that's a win!
Zionas
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My apartment is very compact, a bit cramped, so not a lot of space at all lol.
Here are the species of fish on my list, my plan is to have a total of 11 fish (down from the original 17-18, then 14-15, then 12-13, now I’ll cap it at 11):
Small fish:
3 Pajama Cardinals (3.5”) *confirmed
2 Ocellaris Clownfish (3”) *confirmed
1 Flame Hawkfish (4”) *confirmed
Large fish
1 Blue Throat Trigger (9”) *confirmed
1 One Spot Foxface (8”) or Foxface Lo / Magnificent Foxface (9”) *confirmed
1 Yellow Tang (8”) *confirmed
1 Marine Betta (8”) *highly likely
Lamarck’s Angel (9”)
Pair of Spotbreast / Bellus / Watanabei Angels (6 or 7”)
Scribbled Angel (10”)
Black and White Heniochus (8.5”)
Yellow Eye Kole Tang (7”)
For a total of 11 fish. If there are any of the species on my list that are sensitive and unsuitable to my current disease prevention capabilities I will cross them off for their lack of hardiness. For me it’ll be getting the best combination of fish possible with my limited resources so in terms of the durability of fish, every fish counts. Also want a good use of space.
Tank will be softies only, 6 foot 183 gallons. 2.3 foot deep and 1.8 foot tall.
Here are the species of fish on my list, my plan is to have a total of 11 fish (down from the original 17-18, then 14-15, then 12-13, now I’ll cap it at 11):
Small fish:
3 Pajama Cardinals (3.5”) *confirmed
2 Ocellaris Clownfish (3”) *confirmed
1 Flame Hawkfish (4”) *confirmed
Large fish
1 Blue Throat Trigger (9”) *confirmed
1 One Spot Foxface (8”) or Foxface Lo / Magnificent Foxface (9”) *confirmed
1 Yellow Tang (8”) *confirmed
1 Marine Betta (8”) *highly likely
Lamarck’s Angel (9”)
Pair of Spotbreast / Bellus / Watanabei Angels (6 or 7”)
Scribbled Angel (10”)
Black and White Heniochus (8.5”)
Yellow Eye Kole Tang (7”)
For a total of 11 fish. If there are any of the species on my list that are sensitive and unsuitable to my current disease prevention capabilities I will cross them off for their lack of hardiness. For me it’ll be getting the best combination of fish possible with my limited resources so in terms of the durability of fish, every fish counts. Also want a good use of space.
Tank will be softies only, 6 foot 183 gallons. 2.3 foot deep and 1.8 foot tall.
tastyfish
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I'm confused a little. Are you looking to prophylactically treat fish or deal with an outbreak in progress? The former is easier.
The fish you have listed all require a large tank.
Zionas
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The hope is I can bring my fish to the LFS to treat prophylactically if needed, but other than that I’ll have to mainly stick to disease control and management.tastyfish
Well-Known Member
You don't need a big tank to prophylactically treat fish (far smaller than the system you'd need to QT and treat them all at the same time. Sorry, but "disease management" is frankly pie in the sky with most ciliates in the tank environment and non-existent with velvet and brook, which are fast killers.
If you have a tank large enough to house the fish you listed, then you have enough space for a 100l (max) QT, which is big enough to prophylactically treat the fish you mentioned individually. (Or else you really need to rethink your definition of an acceptable tank size for those fish)
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Marine Velvet Disease (Amyloodinium ocellatum)
What You Need To Know:
* Fast killing parasite capable of wiping out most of your fish in just a matter of days. Sometimes there are survivors, sometimes not.
* Can be treated in a quarantine tank using Chloroquine phosphate or Copper. A 5 minute freshwater dip, and 90 minute acriflavine bath (or 45 minute formalin bath) can provide temporary relief before the fish enters quarantine. Once velvet is detected, treatment should begin ASAP!
* The fallow (fishless) period for starving velvet out of a Display Tank is 6 weeks.
* Symptoms of velvet include swimming into the flow of a powerhead or wavemaker, and tiny white dots on the fins & body. The white dots can look similar to ich, but are smaller and usually far more numerous. If you can count the white dots its usually ich. However, if they are too numerous to count there’s a good chance you are dealing with velvet.
Sometimes with light colored fish the white dots are mostly visible on the fins:
This shows the difference between ich (1st photo) and velvet (2nd photo) on a Hippo Tang:
Video of a Moorish Idol with velvet (notice the sheen as he turns):
Understanding Marine Velvet Disease
Amyloodinium ocellatum, commonly referred to as “velvet,” is a single-celled dinoflagellate capable of causing disease in marine fish. Velvet’s life cycle is similar to that of Cryptocaryon irritans (ich). However, there are a few key differences:
- Velvet “free swimmers” are referred to as dinospores instead of theronts.
- Velvet’s life cycle is typically faster (completed in 4 days on average), and the attacking free swimmers are more numerous than ich.
- Velvet dinospores can remain infective for up to 15 days, whereas with ich theronts it’s only 48 hours. This is because velvet tomonts and dinospores are both capable of using photosynthesis as a means of obtaining nutrients (remember it is a dinoflagellate).
Symptoms – Velvet dinospores will usually invade the gills first and sometimes kill the fish right then due to asphyxiation. If this happens, you may never see physical evidence of velvet on the skin & fins. Therefore, it is important to observe for these key behavioral symptoms of velvet:
If visible physical symptoms do manifest:
- Reduced or complete loss of appetite.
- Heavy breathing, scratching, flashing, head twitching, erratic swimming behavior (unfortunately velvet shares all these same symptoms with ich & gill flukes.)
- Swimming into the flow of a water pump/wavemaker/powerhead (unique to velvet).
- Acting reclusive (velvet causes fish to be sensitive to light).
There are two ways to differentiate velvet from ich:
- Velvet may initially start out looking just like ich, with salt or sugar-like “sprinkles” visible mostly on the fins.
- Within days or sometimes just hours, these tiny white dots will spread all over the fish’s body, covering it in “dust.” This dust may look grey-gold colored if viewed at the right angle and under the right spectrum of light. For this reason, it may be difficult to see velvet on a yellow or light colored fish (look from an angle, not directly from the side). However, sometimes a fish’s body will look “dirty” or show “dark areas” just before velvet appears.
The importance of recognizing key behavioral symptoms of velvet and then beginning treatment immediately cannot be stressed enough. This is because once velvet has spread to the body, the fish is heavily infected and prognosis is bleak. Velvet cannot usually be managed, as ich sometimes is, due to its sheer overwhelming numbers. Sometimes it is possible in a very large aquarium (i.e. dilution of the free swimmers) if you also utilize equipment (e.g. UV sterilizer, diatom filter) capable of removing free swimmers from the water column. Survivors of velvet are usually clownfish, and other fish with a thick mucous coat like wrasses & dragonets. It is also thought a very small percentage of fish are capable of building up either natural or temporary immunity (usually 6 months max) to velvet.
- Velvet trophonts (and the correlating dots) are much smaller than ich. They range in size from 10-80 micrometers in diameter. They are also perfectly round. Ich trophonts are more oval shaped and range in size from 48 x 27 to 452 x 360 micrometers. Both start off small but then grow in size before dropping off. It has been said that velvet makes a fish look like it has been dusted with a fine powder, whereas ich is more like salt grains.
- If you can count the number of white dots on your fish, then you are probably dealing with ich. If they are too numerous to count, it is most likely velvet.
Treatment Options – Chloroquine phosphate is the treatment of choice for velvet, but copper also works if symptoms are caught early on. These also work on ich, so if in doubt treating with Chloroquine or copper will have you covered both ways. A freshwater dip and/or chemical bath (discussed in more detail below) is recommended either before or during treatment, due to the severity of this disease; however these would only provide temporary relief and will not eradicate velvet.
I personally use the following treatment protocol on fish with velvet:
- 5 minute freshwater dip: https://humble.fish/freshwater-dip/
- 90 minute bath using Ruby Reef Rally. Temperature control and heavily aerate the bath water.
- Treat for 30 days in a quarantine tank using either Chloroquine phosphate (60 mg/gal) or chelated copper (e.g. Copper Power – 1.75 ppm).
Final ThoughtsMore info regarding Marine Velvet Disease can be found here: http://agrilife.org/fisheries/files...mportant-Parasite-of-Cultured-Marine-Fish.pdf
- You need to move with a sense of urgency when a fish has velvet. This is not the same as dealing with ich. A fish with velvet may have days or just hours to live without prompt treatment.
- A small percentage of fish are thought to be capable of building up a natural or temporary immunity to velvet (and perhaps other parasites as well). Natural immunity is less understood, but temporary immunity usually only lasts 6 months max. During that time the fish is still a carrier and capable of infecting other fish. Over the years I have noticed this trend: Clownfish, mandarins and other fish with thick slime coats are often the only fish left standing following a velvet wipeout.
- Disease masking: There is some anecdotal evidence to suggest that fish treated with a non-therapeutic level of copper will not show symptoms of ich, velvet, brook, etc. for weeks. This is why it can be dangerous to buy from LFS who treat their fish with copper but do not test daily to ensure it remains within the therapeutic range.
- The life cycle of velvet varies according to strain. The trophonts, which feed and do all the damage, can remain on a fish for as little as 12 hours or as long as 4 days. Common sense dictates you are more likely to save a fish with velvet if it’s a “12 hour variant” than one which feeds on the fish for 4 consecutive days, since the medication will not kill the trophonts still on the fish.
- Even after completing the freshwater dip and chemical bath, you will still see tiny dots all over the fish. This is because the dots you see are not the actual parasites. Velvet, like ich, is invisible to the naked eye in all forms. The dots or “dust” you are seeing is actually excess mucous buildup around where the trophonts are feeding. It will take a few days for this to diminish.
- If you can’t get acriflavine or formalin right away, daily freshwater dips may buy you more time.
- As mentioned previously, velvet dinospores (free swimmers) can remain infective for up to 15 days. By contrast, ich theronts only remain active for 48 hours, with infectivity greatly reduced just 6 – 8 hours after it leaves the cyst. What this means is that velvet has a lot more time to seek out and attach to a fish host, which partially explains why a fish with velvet is often covered in it.
- Velvet doesn’t take much of a break. Velvet tomonts release free swimmers every 4 days (on average). As mentioned above, those free swimmers can hang around for up to 15 days looking for fish to infect. Ich tomonts only release theronts (free swimmers) every 2-4 weeks (on average), with at least one strain taking up to 72 days. Since the trophont (feeding stage) remains on the fish for 3-7 days before dropping off, a fish with ich gets some relief in-between bombardments.
- Velvet likes light. As a dinoflagellate, velvet tomonts and dinospores are both capable of using photosynthesis as a means of obtaining energy. So when a dinospore ruptures from its cyst, it propels upward (towards the light) by using whip-like appendages for locomotion. Therefore, top swimming fish are probably more at risk than bottom dwellers. I highly suggest not using an aquarium light during treatment and also when running fallow for velvet (if possible in a fish only system).
- The study on aerosol transmission – which established the 10 foot rule – was done using velvet as the subject of the study. More info on that here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0044848606001785
Hi, can I ask how we get to the 6 week fallow period? Thanks!
jasonrusso
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Can you clarify the question?
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I wanted to know where the 6 weeks fallow comes from....what are the max stages that makes this the proper fallow period?
jasonrusso
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Parasite falls off the fish and sits in the sand reproducing. The parasite hatches and swims around looking for a new host (fish). If it doesn't find one it dies and doesn't reproduce.
72 days is more for crypt, not velvet. Velvet is faster moving. So 6 weeks will get rid of velvet, but if you are doing it you might as well go all the way.
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Right, because it can have a long tomont stage. What is the longest observed tomont for velvet?
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Anyone know this?
Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum)
Marine Velvet Disease (Amyloodinium ocellatum) What You Need To Know: * Fast killing parasite capable of wiping out most of your fish in just a matter of days. Sometimes there are survivors, sometimes not. * Can be treated in a quarantine tank using Chloroquine phosphate or Copper. A 5...
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Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum)
Marine Velvet Disease (Amyloodinium ocellatum) What You Need To Know: * Fast killing parasite capable of wiping out most of your fish in just a matter of days. Sometimes there are survivors, sometimes not. * Can be treated in a quarantine tank using Chloroquine phosphate or Copper. A 5...
Thanks but it only says on average 4 days. That would be a 19 day fallow period vs the recommended 45. Is there situations where the tomont stage can last far longer? I'm just looking for the reason of the 45 day recommendation.
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