Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum)

[Nappyloxs]

Help. I have what appears to be Velvet outbreak. Not sure how. Yesterday, my blue tang was fine but by evening she had white dots all over and was scratching against the works. My gamma also had white soots and was behaving erratic. Today blue has not been out of her hiding spot. I ran to LFS and bought paraguard, metroplex, focus, and garlic. I didn’t realize paraguard is not safe for inverts. Tank is new so no corals just a few snails and crabs.

Blue tang looks bad. I am thinking of doing a FW dip followed by paraguard dip. I have a spare tank to use a QT but will take some time to setup. (90 gallon). I plan on quarantining all fish as my clowns are also showing it now.

I ordered copperpower but won’t be here until Wednesday. I was thinking of taking snails/crabs out and tossing them in a bucket of DT water to get while treating DT with paraguard.

I am wondering if it is okay to do a fw and paraguard dip and put fish back into DT while I get QT tank setup (probably by tomorrow afternoon, though I am not sure about cycle).

Thanks

 

[blackstallion]

@Humblefish I am currently dealing with an outbreak of Velvet in my QT with a Sailfin and Purple Tang. This started on Monday (about 70hrs ago) at which point I dosed 2.0ppm of Copper Power into my QT. I performed a FW dip on the Sailfin prior to as he was the one showing signs of Velvet at the time.

My question is this. I have not been performing FW dips while they've been in the QT with the Copper. My understanding is the parasites that cause Velvet should die within 4 days. It is now 3.5 days so I'm hopeful that will be tomorrow in my case. Would it be worth the try on a FW dip now or would that potentially introduce more stress as they should almost be through it now?

I started a thread on this below on Monday:

EMERGENCY - Need help with Tangs in QT, not looking good

Please help identify what the issue may be. They both went through 14 days Copper Power treatment and now are in QT being treated for flukes with GC dosed in the water. They are occasionally scratching on the PVC pipes. The Sailfin has me concerned though with how he looks. Sometimes...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[blackstallion]

@Humblefish I am currently dealing with an outbreak of Velvet in my QT with a Sailfin and Purple Tang. This started on Monday (about 70hrs ago) at which point I dosed 2.0ppm of Copper Power into my QT. I performed a FW dip on the Sailfin prior to as he was the one showing signs of Velvet at the time.

My question is this. I have not been performing FW dips while they've been in the QT with the Copper. My understanding is the parasites that cause Velvet should die within 4 days. It is now 3.5 days so I'm hopeful that will be tomorrow in my case. Would it be worth the try on a FW dip now or would that potentially introduce more stress as they should almost be through it now?

I started a thread on this below on Monday:

EMERGENCY - Need help with Tangs in QT, not looking good

Please help identify what the issue may be. They both went through 14 days Copper Power treatment and now are in QT being treated for flukes with GC dosed in the water. They are occasionally scratching on the PVC pipes. The Sailfin has me concerned though with how he looks. Sometimes...

www.reef2reef.com

I went ahead and performed a 5 minute FW dip on both in hopes this will ease their suffering and get them through.

 

[Mocha_Storm]

@Humblefish @Jay Hemdal

I appreciate all the insights you all have provided in this thread. I recently (today) lost two fish to what I expect to be velvet. I've had both for over a month of no signs... Did not QT either of them - my mistake.

I'm going to try and breakdown my timeline below:

Saturday - Out of town, no eyes on tank

Sunday - Noticed that my blue tang looked to have ich/breathing heavy. FW dipped him for five minutes no noticeable flukes in my holding container. Then noticed that he and my kole were swimming into the powerhead. Ordered a QT tank online.

Monday AM -Woke up to my kole tang breathing heavy and on his side. FW dipped him and he was dead within minutes of putting him back in my tank. I will admit that I did not aerate the water for more than a couple of minutes. My blue tang was swimming around freely annoying my target mandarin and eating all the food I put in my tank.

Monday Afternoon - Picked up my QT and set it up around noon, seeded it, and used biomedia. Caught my pair of clowns, who dont show any signs of sickness, and put them in the tank. It took me most of the afternoon to catch the blue tang. He ate everything I put in the tank and swam freely in the display tank before being captured. Still had the signs of ich/velvet but still VERY active.

Monday Night - Before I went to bed I dosed 2.5 ml of copper power. I watched as the blue tang went crazy but the clownfish seem alright.

Tuesday AM - I woke up to my blue tang barely holding on. I dosed another 2.5 ml in 15 gallon QT to get to 1.5 ppm in 48 hours. Then by noon, he was dead. My clownfish look fine.

Tuesday PM - My clownfish look fine, platinum looks to breathing slightly heavy, and both are eating everything like normal. I will dose my 2.5ml tonight for a total of 7.5 mil of the 13ml I need to reach 1.5 ppm for my 15 gallon QT.


My three questions..

1. Anything I could have done differently to possibly save either fish?

2. Should I FW dip both clowns? No visible signs of infection.

3. Will my target mandarin affect the fallow cycle in my DT?

 

[drawman]

@Humblefish @Jay Hemdal

I appreciate all the insights you all have provided in this thread. I recently (today) lost two fish to what I expect to be velvet. I've had both for over a month of no signs... Did not QT either of them - my mistake.

I'm going to try and breakdown my timeline below:

Saturday - Out of town, no eyes on tank

Sunday - Noticed that my blue tang looked to have ich/breathing heavy. FW dipped him for five minutes no noticeable flukes in my holding container. Then noticed that he and my kole were swimming into the powerhead. Ordered a QT tank online.

Monday AM -Woke up to my kole tang breathing heavy and on his side. FW dipped him and he was dead within minutes of putting him back in my tank. I will admit that I did not aerate the water for more than a couple of minutes. My blue tang was swimming around freely annoying my target mandarin and eating all the food I put in my tank.

Monday Afternoon - Picked up my QT and set it up around noon, seeded it, and used biomedia. Caught my pair of clowns, who dont show any signs of sickness, and put them in the tank. It took me most of the afternoon to catch the blue tang. He ate everything I put in the tank and swam freely in the display tank before being captured. Still had the signs of ich/velvet but still VERY active.

Monday Night - Before I went to bed I dosed 2.5 ml of copper power. I watched as the blue tang went crazy but the clownfish seem alright.

Tuesday AM - I woke up to my blue tang barely holding on. I dosed another 2.5 ml in 15 gallon QT to get to 1.5 ppm in 48 hours. Then by noon, he was dead. My clownfish look fine.

Tuesday PM - My clownfish look fine, platinum looks to breathing slightly heavy, and both are eating everything like normal. I will dose my 2.5ml tonight for a total of 7.5 mil of the 13ml I need to reach 1.5 ppm for my 15 gallon QT.


My three questions..

1. Anything I could have done differently to possibly save either fish?

2. Should I FW dip both clowns? No visible signs of infection.

3. Will my target mandarin affect the fallow cycle in my DT?

1. Only thing different I can thing of is if you were able to do a freshwater dip or H202 bath the day before. Makes me think you have velvet how quickly it is killing your fish.

2. Clowns can hold out a little longer against velvet so if they are not showing any symptoms you could probably go either way.

3. My vote is yes here. I would only trust a true fallow period. No sense letting Ich or Velvet persist.

 

[ClownWrangler]

Is it possible for velvet to kill a bunch of fish without white spots ever appearing? Everything pointed toward velvet in my case with symptoms and time frame, but no external signs of illness.

 

[Maritimer]

I believe that it is.

I'm dealing with what appears to be velvet in my QT right now - have lost a butterfly and a powder-blue tang, and would estimate that I'm about to lose a couple of wrasses - the only fish which showed spots was the tang, but all have had increased breathing rates. (Additional details in separate post.)

@Jay Hemdal would be able to confirm or deny.

~B.

 

[ClownWrangler]

I believe that it is.

I'm dealing with what appears to be velvet in my QT right now - have lost a butterfly and a powder-blue tang, and would estimate that I'm about to lose a couple of wrasses - the only fish which showed spots was the tang, but all have had increased breathing rates. (Additional details in separate post.)

@Jay Hemdal would be able to confirm or deny.

~B.

Thanks. Sorry about your losses. I'm not entirely sure that’s what’s going on, but I'm going to go through the who CP treatment for the two survivors anyway just to be safe. Lost a flame hawk then a small maroon the same day with no symptoms the day before, the remaining clown and flame angel went into QT with CP that evening after 3 min PP FW dip and seemed to be better within 24 hours, however the maroon clowns fins were ragged and it couldnt swim right. The next day its tail fin was gone and side fins half missing. It has good color and looks healthy otherwise. Not sure if the flame angel that did it or fin rot. I put it in a separate bucket and it seems like if it could swim, it might be ok. The Flame angel is a picture of health just a few days after the incident. Will it grow it's fins back? Is there a antibiotic that is safe to use with CP to prevent infection?

 

[Maritimer]

If the fins aren't chewed right down to the base, they should grow back.

I don't really know about antibiotics & CP - @Jay Hemdal might.

~B.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks. Sorry about your losses. I'm not entirely sure that’s what’s going on, but I'm going to go through the who CP treatment for the two survivors anyway just to be safe. Lost a flame hawk then a small maroon the same day with no symptoms the day before, the remaining clown and flame angel went into QT with CP that evening after 3 min PP FW dip and seemed to be better within 24 hours, however the maroon clowns fins were ragged and it couldnt swim right. The next day its tail fin was gone and side fins half missing. It has good color and looks healthy otherwise. Not sure if the flame angel that did it or fin rot. I put it in a separate bucket and it seems like if it could swim, it might be ok. The Flame angel is a picture of health just a few days after the incident. Will it grow it's fins back? Is there a antibiotic that is safe to use with CP to prevent infection?

You can dose antibiotics with copper power if need be, you would want to use a broad spectrum, gram negative antibiotic like Neoplex. Monitor your ammonia well and don't use carbon of course.

Jay

 

[ClownWrangler]

You can dose antibiotics with copper power if need be, you would want to use a broad spectrum, gram negative antibiotic like Neoplex. Monitor your ammonia well and don't use carbon of course.

Jay

Thanks. It never occurred to me that there are two meanings for CP. I meant Chloroquine Phosphate. Sorry.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks. It never occurred to me that there are two meanings for CP. I meant Chloroquine Phosphate. Sorry.

That’s why I spelled it out (grin).
I’ve not heard of any detrimental cross reactions, but I have not dosed chloroquine with antibiotics myself....
Jay

 

[Wilson1985]

So I didn't read through the entire thread but I know there's no such thing as dumb questions right? So all of my fish except one died super quickly from what I believe was velvet. I am going to do a 6 week fishless cycle. But my question is, during those six weeks can I add inverts (i.e. snails, shrimp, etc.)?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So I didn't read through the entire thread but I know there's no such thing as dumb questions right? So all of my fish except one died super quickly from what I believe was velvet. I am going to do a 6 week fishless cycle. But my question is, during those six weeks can I add inverts (i.e. snails, shrimp, etc.)?

In theory, yes you could, with no issues. In practice though, most dealers house some fish in their invert systems. Bringing inverts back to your tank from them can very commonly bring disease back in as well. I just had a conversation with my wife about this issue - I want to add some CUC to my small home tank, but my local dealer houses clownfish in their invert systems, and those almost always have ich or Brook to some degree. I told her I was going to buy online because then at least I can't see the issue (grin).

Jay

 

[Wilson1985]

In theory, yes you could, with no issues. In practice though, most dealers house some fish in their invert systems. Bringing inverts back to your tank from them can very commonly bring disease back in as well. I just had a conversation with my wife about this issue - I want to add some CUC to my small home tank, but my local dealer houses clownfish in their invert systems, and those almost always have ich or Brook to some degree. I told her I was going to buy online because then at least I can't see the issue (grin).

Jay

I like the way you think! I'll probably do the same. Merry Christmas!

 

[Reef and Dive]

Emergency Treatment for Marine Velvet Disease​

I recently acquired 3 fish - Longnose Butterfly, Kole Tang, Naso Tang - with velvet. None showed visible physical symptoms right away, but they all came from a tank where velvet was known to be present so I just patiently waited. Before & after pictures will follow immediately after this write-up.

In short, the Butterflyfish didn’t make it; however the two tangs did. The only difference in their treatment was I used formalin (with Methylene Blue) on the butterfly in a bath solution, whereas the tangs got acriflavine (with NO Methylene Blue). It’s also worth noting that the butterfly & Kole Tang showed symptoms the worst, whereas the Naso only had moderate visible symptoms. Tangs are also generally considered hardier than butterflyfish, so there’s that factor to consider as well. Anyway, here is the treatment I used on them:

The short version:

• 5 minute freshwater dip
• Immediately afterwards, perform a chemical bath (in saltwater matching SG/temp the fish came from). You have two options:

1. Acriflavine (preferred) - Do the bath for 75-90 minutes, but remove the fish immediately at the first sign of distress. Aerate heavily both before & during the bath, and temperature control the water. The following products contain acriflavine: Acriflavine-MS and Ruby Reef Rally. DO NOT mix acriflavine with any other chemicals.
2. Formalin - Do the bath for 30-60 minutes max, but remove the fish immediately at the first sign of distress. Aerate heavily both before & during the bath, and temperature control the water. The following products contain formalin: Formalin-MS, Quick Cure, Aquarium Solutions Ich-X, Kordon Rid-Ich Plus. Use protection (rubber gloves, face mask, eye protection, etc.) whenever handling formalin as it is a known carcinogen! However, you can add Methylene Blue to the formalin bath (1 capful per 2-3 gallons of bath water.)

• After the bath, place the fish in a QT pre-dosed at 80mg/gal using Chloroquine phosphate. In theory, copper (exs. Cupramine, Coppersafe, Copper Power) should work just as well as CP. However, due to how fast velvet can reproduce you don’t have the luxury of slowly ramping up the copper level as is normally advised. Therefore, the fish needs to be placed in a QT with copper already at minimum therapeutic levels. This is the advantage CP has over copper in this particular situation.
• While in QT, use a wide spectrum antibiotic (exs. Seachem Kanaplex, Furan-2) for the first week to ward off any possible bacterial infections. Secondary bacterial infections are very common in fish with preexisting parasitic infestations such as velvet.
• Keep the fish in CP or copper (at therapeutic levels) for one month. However, you can transfer the fish into a non-medicated holding tank for observation after just two weeks (explained below). DO NOT lower the CP or copper level before transferring.

The long-winded version:

I’d like to explain in more detail about what the above mentioned treatments accomplish:

Freshwater dip - This is very useful for removing most of the “surface parasites”. Noga (2000) and Noga & Levy (1995) both reported that a single freshwater dip would remove 80-90% of the parasites. I thought that would be enough to move on to copper or CP in a QT. However, the fish I treated with just a freshwater dip and then in-tank QT treatment continually died. Therefore I came to the conclusion a chemical bath was also needed before being moved into QT treatment (see below). Here is how you perform a freshwater dip:

Fill a bucket with RODI water, and use a heater to match the temperature to the water the fish is coming from. Aerate the water heavily for at least 30 minutes prior to doing the dip, then discontinue aeration while performing the dip. Fish aren’t overly pH sensitive for short durations like this, but you can squirt a little tank water into the dip just before the fish goes in to help bring it up.

Place the fish in the freshwater (FW) dip and observe closely. It is not unusual for them to freak out a little at first. Also, tangs are notorious for “playing dead” during a FW dip. The important thing is to watch their gills; they should be breathing heavily at all times during the dip. If breathing slows, it’s time to exit the dip. Dip the fish for no longer than 5 minutes.

Some fish can have an adverse reaction to a FW dip by appearing unable to maintain their equilibrium once returned to the aquarium. If this happens, hold the fish upright (using latex, nitrile or rubber gloves), and gently glide him through the water (to get saltwater flowing through the gills again). It is also a good idea to place the fish in an acclimation box until he appears “normal.”

Acriflavine - This is a new drug (to me anyway), but it seems to have a lot of potential as a replacement for formalin. It has a broad range of effect, being effective against both protozoans and bacterial infections. The latter gives it an advantage over using formalin, because all those tiny bite marks inflicted by velvet have the potential to get infected. You can also leave a fish in acriflavine longer than formalin, because it is not as harsh on the fish. Dosage varies by the product you are using, but for straight acriflavine (Acriflavine-MS) use 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons of water for a bath solution.

Formalin - Cheap, effective and readily available; formalin can sometimes even be sourced from a vet or local pharmacy (37% Formaldehyde is what you’re looking for). However, the downsides are numerous: First, it can be very harsh - some fish cannot even survive in it the full 60 minutes. Formalin will quickly deplete oxygen from the water, so it’s important to aerate heavily for 30 minutes before and also during the bath treatment. The bath should be done in a large glass bowl/container or small aquarium, as plastic may absorb some of the medication and then leach it back out during future use. Finally, formalin is a known carcinogen, so precautions must be taken when handling it. Prevent your skin from coming into contact with it by wearing waterproof gloves, and protect your face by wearing a face mask and eye protection.

Even though I lost the butterfly I had treated with formalin, I still wanted to include it as a chemical bath option. In the past, I have successfully treated clownfish with Brooklynella by using formalin and also know those who have been successful using it to treat velvet as well, so it is not without its merits. However, there is anecdotal evidence that some fish treated with formalin will suddenly stop eating at a later date. So, similar to cyanide poisoning. I’ve also read that many fish treated with formalin do not live past 18-24 months, possibly dying of cancer. However, when faced with velvet and if formalin is your only viable option, 18-24 months is a heck of a lot better than just letting the fish die in a matter of days or even hours.

Methylene Blue - May be added to the formalin bath only. It is a healing agent, useful for treating the tiny bite marks inflicted by velvet.

Chloroquine phosphate/copper - While all of the above will remove the vast majority of velvet on a fish, some will inevitably survive. Within 4 days the remaining trophonts will drop off the fish, then encyst, and usually 48-96 hours later (although it can take up to 20+ days depending upon the strain) release dinospores (free swimmers) seeking to reinfect fish. The presence of CP or copper at therapeutic levels kills the dinospores, effectively shielding your fish from reinfection. It is important to note that CP/copper does not eradicate any other stage of velvet, just dinospores. It has zero impact on the parasites on the fish; they must “weather the storm” until the trophonts fall off. This is why it is so important to do a freshwater dip and chemical bath beforehand, to reduce the number of parasites feeding on your fish’s body & gills.

As mentioned in “The short version”, if you only have one QT to work with leave the fish in CP or copper for one month before performing water changes/running carbon. This will ensure the fish has been protected from reinfection before removing the medication. However, if you can transfer the fish to a non-medicated holding tank (at least 10 feet away from the QT) for observation then you may do so just 10-14 days after CP/copper treatment has begun. So long as therapeutic levels were continuously maintained for the 10-14 day period. Transfer nothing but the fish, and even as little water as possible with the fish (like doing Tank Transfer Method). DO NOT lower the CP or copper level before transferring, as that is “the shield” protecting the fish from reinfection. Once transferred, your fish should have a “clean slate” in his new environment and have left behind all the velvet problems in the QT. Observe for at least 2 weeks before declaring your fish to be velvet free!

Chloroquine is considered the treatment of choice for velvet, because you can go from zero to full therapeutic all in one dose, without negatively affecting the fish. This is not the case with copper, as some fish can be overly sensitive to it and sometimes stop eating or even die. But with velvet, that’s a risk you’re just going to have to take if copper is the only viable option. Also, with CP anything from 40-80mg/gal should get the job done where velvet is concerned. I just dosed at the high end for my experiment, because I saw no downside in doing so.

Wide spectrum antibiotic - Velvet does A LOT of damage to a fish’s skin & gills. The trophont sits on the skin’s surface and puts out small rhyzoids (root-like structures) into the skin of the host where it absorbs nutrients directly from the fish’s skin. With all those tiny wounds, the likelihood of infection is high. This is something I missed in my earlier experiments where the fish died. Therefore, I consider it prudent to preemptively treat with Kanaplex and/or Furan-2 to ward off any potential bacterial infections which might arise.

Final thoughts:

• You need to move with a sense of urgency when a fish has velvet. This is not the same as dealing with ich. A fish with velvet may have days or just hours to live without prompt treatment.
• A small percentage of fish are thought to be capable of building up a natural or temporary immunity to velvet (and perhaps other parasites as well). Natural immunity is less understood, but temporary immunity usually only lasts 6 months max. During that time the fish is still a carrier and capable of infecting other fish. Over the years I have noticed this trend: Clownfish, mandarins and other fish with thick slime coats are often the only fish left standing following a velvet wipeout.
• Disease masking: There is some anecdotal evidence to suggest that fish treated with a non-therapeutic level of copper will not show symptoms of ich, velvet, brook, etc. for weeks. This is why it can be dangerous to buy from LFS who treat their fish with copper but do not test daily to ensure it remains within the therapeutic range.
• The lifecycle of velvet varies according to strain. The trophonts, which feed and do all the damage, can remain on a fish for as little as 12 hours or as long as 4 days. Common sense dictates you are more likely to save a fish with velvet if it’s a “12 hour variant” than one which feeds on the fish for 4 consecutive days, since the medication will not kill the trophonts still on the fish.
• Even after completing the freshwater dip and chemical bath, you will still see tiny dots all over the fish. This is because the dots you see are not the actual parasites. Velvet, like ich, is invisible to the naked eye in all forms. The dots or “dust” you are seeing is actually excess mucous buildup around the tiny insertion points. It will take a few days for this to diminish.
• If you can’t get acriflavine or formalin right away, daily freshwater dips may buy you more time. However, I’ve never saved a fish just by doing freshwater dips and then treating with copper or CP.
• As mentioned previously, velvet dinospores (free swimmers) can remain infective for up to 15 days. By contrast, ich theronts only remain active for 48 hours, with infectivity greatly reduced just 6 - 8 hours after it leaves the cyst. What this means is that velvet has a lot more time to seek out and attach to a fish host, which partially explains why a fish with velvet is often covered in it.
• Velvet doesn’t take much of a break. Velvet tomonts release free swimmers every 4 days (on average). As mentioned above, those free swimmers can hang around for up to 15 days looking for fish to infect. Ich tomonts only release theronts (free swimmers) every 2-4 weeks (on average), with at least one strain taking up to 72 days. Since the trophont (feeding stage) remains on the fish for 3-7 days before dropping off, a fish with ich gets some relief in-between bombardments.
• Velvet likes light. As a dinoflagellate, velvet tomonts and dinospores are both capable of using photosynthesis as a means of obtaining energy. So when a dinospore ruptures from its cyst, it propels upward (towards the light) by using whip-like appendages for locomotion. Therefore, top swimming fish are probably more at risk than bottom dwellers. I highly suggest not using an aquarium light during treatment and also when running fallow for velvet (if possible in a fish only system).
• The study on aerosol transmission - which established the 10 foot rule - was done using velvet as the subject of the study. More info on that here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/aerosol-transmission.190292/

Mr Humblefish,

Amphidinium ocellatum does not have photosynthetic apparatus or chloroplasts.

I’m aware that has been said on aquarium articles, but it seems it is just a misconception we have been repeating.

AQUASYMBIO | Parasites and endosymbioses <br />in aquatic ecosystems

aquasymbio.fr

 

[Batusay]

I use this: http://www.fishvet.com/Acriflavine-MS.htm

Hello!
What concentration of acriflavine should be in a medicinal bath?

 

[tastyfish]

Mr Humblefish,

Amphidinium ocellatum does not have photosynthetic apparatus or chloroplasts.

I’m aware that has been said on aquarium articles, but it seems it is just a misconception we have been repeating.

AQUASYMBIO | Parasites and endosymbioses <br />in aquatic ecosystems

aquasymbio.fr

Do you mean Amyloodinium cf. ocellatum, or has it been reclassified following DNA sequencing?

I've never been able to find a reliable source of the cell structure as every paper focuses on the external physiology. Could you please share anything that you've found?

Thanks!

 

[Reef and Dive]

Do you mean Amyloodinium cf. ocellatum, or has it been reclassified following DNA sequencing?

I've never been able to find a reliable source of the cell structure as every paper focuses on the external physiology. Could you please share anything that you've found?

Thanks!

Yes. Amyloodinium ocellatum. Never had chloroplasts or photosynthetic apparatus.

Most references are not new, but it seems to me the photosynthetic myth was just created and repeated by us aquarists.

Check Wayne (attached) for source of this table:

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I think the confusion stems from the fact that the related freshwater dinoflagellate, Oodinium DOES have chloroplasts. Back in the olden days, we called it Oodinium ocellatum. Amyloodinium does not, to my knowledge, have chloroplasts.

Jay