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Need help with Tangs in QT, not looking good

blackstallion

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Please help identify what the issue may be. They both went through 14 days Copper Power treatment and now are in QT being treated for flukes with GC dosed in the water. They are occasionally scratching on the PVC pipes. The Sailfin has me concerned though with how he looks. Sometimes definetly not as active as he was before and will sometimes just stay towards the bottom of the tank.

20200928_135705.jpg
20200928_133211.jpg
 
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blackstallion

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Here is a video of his breathing as well, which seems fast. He will also sometimes start backing up quickly, almost like he's trying to regurgitate something. Is this maybe the flukes he's trying to expel?

 

anthonygf

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If it is flukes fresh water dip will help and you will see them drop off. I think for no more than 5 minutes. Make sure water is same temp as tank. I may be wrong on the amount of time, do your research on FWD.
 
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blackstallion

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If it is flukes fresh water dip will help and you will see them drop off. I think for no more than 5 minutes. Make sure water is same temp as tank. I may be wrong on the amount of time, do your research on FWD.
What about all the "flaking" bumps on the Sailfin, can that be caused by the GC that's in the water column now? Is that something more serious like Brook/Velvet?
 

JGT

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Please help identify what the issue may be. They both went through 14 days Copper Power treatment and now are in QT being treated for flukes with GC dosed in the water. They are occasionally scratching on the PVC pipes. The Sailfin has me concerned though with how he looks. Sometimes definetly not as active as he was before and will sometimes just stay towards the bottom of the tank.

20200928_135705.jpg
20200928_133211.jpg
Are these pics before or after the Copper Qt because in the pics they both look like they have Ick, esp the Sailfin.
 
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blackstallion

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Are these pics before or after the Copper Qt because in the pics they both look like they have Ick, esp the Sailfin.
This is after the Copper treatment, I took them out of Cu about 1 week ago. They are now in the first week of GC treatment dosed into the water column.

I am going to try and do a FW dip to see if it helps any.
 

Halal Hotdog

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You did a great job on the pictures. They are a little zoomed in, it does appear like a dusting on the fish to me. That would be more in line with marine velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum). Velvet does kill fast. In the video the sailfin does appear to have labored breathing. I would start with a 5 minute fresh water dip to help remove many of the parasites, then straight into therapeutic copper.
 

Jay Hemdal

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Please help identify what the issue may be. They both went through 14 days Copper Power treatment and now are in QT being treated for flukes with GC dosed in the water. They are occasionally scratching on the PVC pipes. The Sailfin has me concerned though with how he looks. Sometimes definetly not as active as he was before and will sometimes just stay towards the bottom of the tank.

20200928_135705.jpg
20200928_133211.jpg
Did you run the copper power at full dose? I generally run these complexed copper products full strength fo 30 days. The spots could be velvet, as the rapid breathing would indicate, but without a microscope, I can’t rule out ich. Either way, the FW dip followed by a full dose of copper, as others mentioned, would be the best course of action. What copper test are you using?
Jay
 
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blackstallion

blackstallion

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Did you run the copper power at full dose? I generally run these complexed copper products full strength fo 30 days. The spots could be velvet, as the rapid breathing would indicate, but without a microscope, I can’t rule out ich. Either way, the FW dip followed by a full dose of copper, as others mentioned, would be the best course of action. What copper test are you using?
Jay
I ran Copper Power at what I thought was 2.25ppm using the derived dose/gallon given in the Copper Power dosing thread in the sticky. I am using the API Copper tester so that was not giving me an exact number. I may need to bite the bullet and buy the Hanna Checker.

So since I am running GC in the QT for Flukes and now need to go back into Copper Treatment, do I have to do a 100% water change before I can dose the Copper? I do recall somewhere I can run GC and Copper Power at the same time, although to be careful for blooms. And should I dose to 1ppm and then ramp up to the full theraputic? Or does this call for going straight to 1.5ppm or even greater?

I have my Purple Tang in the same QT and like I said he is having similar behavior, maybe not as labored breathing, but he's scratching on the PVC. Is scratching indicative during Velvet or Ich?

Thanks for all your advice, this is EXTREMELY stressful, although I could imagine how it is for the fish!
 
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blackstallion

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This is how I plan on proceeded as it seems more likely than not this is Velvet:

Already performed 33% WC to dilute the GC that was already in the water column.

Will dose 1.04ml/g of Copper Power to get up to 1.75ppm as described in the Copper Dosing thread. (I do have an API Copper test I will perform as well).

How quickly should I push the Copper Level to the 2.25ppm or higher level?

And should this be for 30 days?
 

Jay Hemdal

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This is how I plan on proceeded as it seems more likely than not this is Velvet:

Already performed 33% WC to dilute the GC that was already in the water column.

Will dose 1.04ml/g of Copper Power to get up to 1.75ppm as described in the Copper Dosing thread. (I do have an API Copper test I will perform as well).

How quickly should I push the Copper Level to the 2.25ppm or higher level?

And should this be for 30 days?
Personally, I would get right back up to full copper through your dosage calculation, confirmed with your API kit. Going slower just lets the velvet/ich get the upper hand. I would keep them there for 30 days. I've heard you can dose GC and copper together, but I've never done that myself, I have dosed copper + prazi many times with no issues.

Jay
 
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blackstallion

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Personally, I would get right back up to full copper through your dosage calculation, confirmed with your API kit. Going slower just lets the velvet/ich get the upper hand. I would keep them there for 30 days. I've heard you can dose GC and copper together, but I've never done that myself, I have dosed copper + prazi many times with no issues.

Jay
Can I ask you a question? And I know this may be contentious, and there's probably no clear answer, but I feel like I need to ask it.

When I initially investigated the best approach to dosing Copper for killing parasites, I read that the latest and greatest approach was to treat with Copper for 14 days (to reduce stress on the fish) and then transfer to a sterile QT tank to complete the remainder of the QT with dosing Prazi/etc. Does this approach NOT work for Velvet?

I did exactly as stated, although, I realize there is some evidence now that Velvet can survive the 2.25ppm level (of which I estimate I was at), so I will probably order a Hanna checker to more precisely measure the level....but, is 14 days OR 30 days better?

And, should I now also be dosing some antibiotics or other medicine to avoid infection? I have Furan-2 and Kanaplex.
 

vetteguy53081

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Looks like a bad case of velvet. If not treated effectively, will take these fish down one by one. For me. it is a feared pathogen with a reputation for being capable of wiping out an entire fish population in just a matter of days, in fact faster than ich.
Velvet spores will usually invade the gills first and then kill the fish right then due to asphyxiation. If this happens, you may never see physical evidence of velvet on the skin & fins. Symptoms include:
  • Reduced or complete loss of appetite
  • Heavy breathing, rubbing, flashing, head twitching, erratic swimming behavior
  • Swimming into the flow of a powerhead which is unique to velvet
  • Acting reclusive as velvet causes fish to be sensitive to light
Ive had super good luck using Polyp Lab MEDIC for treament. Also good is Chloroquine phosphate for velvet, but copper also works if symptoms are caught early on. These also work on ich, so if in doubt . . . treating with Copper Power or copper will have you covered both ways.
I would follow Jay's recommendations on 30 day treatment. Also consider fallow with your tank.
 
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blackstallion

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Looks like a bad case of velvet. If not treated effectively, will take these fish down one by one. For me. it is a feared pathogen with a reputation for being capable of wiping out an entire fish population in just a matter of days, in fact faster than ich.
Velvet spores will usually invade the gills first and then kill the fish right then due to asphyxiation. If this happens, you may never see physical evidence of velvet on the skin & fins. Symptoms include:
  • Reduced or complete loss of appetite
  • Heavy breathing, rubbing, flashing, head twitching, erratic swimming behavior
  • Swimming into the flow of a powerhead which is unique to velvet
  • Acting reclusive as velvet causes fish to be sensitive to light
Ive had super good luck using Polyp Lab MEDIC for treament. Also good is Chloroquine phosphate for velvet, but copper also works if symptoms are caught early on. These also work on ich, so if in doubt . . . treating with Copper Power or copper will have you covered both ways.
I would follow Jay's recommendations on 30 day treatment. Also consider fallow with your tank.
Thanks, DT has already been fishless for 1.5 months and will continue for the full 76 days.

These Tangs are in my QT so I think I caught it early enough to treat with Copper Power.

Is 2.25ppm the therapeutic level to go with?
 
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Jay Hemdal

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Can I ask you a question? And I know this may be contentious, and there's probably no clear answer, but I feel like I need to ask it.

When I initially investigated the best approach to dosing Copper for killing parasites, I read that the latest and greatest approach was to treat with Copper for 14 days (to reduce stress on the fish) and then transfer to a sterile QT tank to complete the remainder of the QT with dosing Prazi/etc. Does this approach NOT work for Velvet?

I did exactly as stated, although, I realize there is some evidence now that Velvet can survive the 2.25ppm level (of which I estimate I was at), so I will probably order a Hanna checker to more precisely measure the level....but, is 14 days OR 30 days better?

And, should I now also be dosing some antibiotics or other medicine to avoid infection? I have Furan-2 and Kanaplex.
First - earlier, I wasn't able to view your video on my phone, but tonight I was able to watch it on my desktop...the sailfin is respiring at around 160 gill beats per minute, and that is very high. That almost assuredly points to velvet as the culprit.

Treating for two weeks with copper was from back in the days when the only product was copper sulfate/citric acid (you either made it yourself our used SeaCure). That was very toxic, so I would only run it for two weeks. I haven't dosed that form of copper for over a decade, I now use organically chelated products that are much milder to the fish (but also to the parasites!). I've gone to a 30 day treatment and found it works much better.

I do not see any reason to dose with antibiotics now - you need to try and control the protozoan infection first. If you see signs of secondary bacterial infection (redness, fin damage, etc.) you could start with antibiotics, but not until then,

Jay
 

vetteguy53081

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Thanks, DT has already been fishless for 1.5 months and will continue for the full 76 days.

These Tangs are in my QT so I think I caught it early enough to treat with Copper Power.

Is 2.25ppm the therapeutic level to go with?
Good on the fallow. I like Jay's past recommendation of 2 as it is milder on especially tangs.
 

Jay Hemdal

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With Velvet, how long in therapeutic copper before they start feeling better, meaning they stop scratching, labored breathing improves, etc?
It varies of course; in some instances it is caught too late and the fish don’t recover. You should see them breathing slower within 3 days for velvet, maybe 5 days for ich.
Jay
 
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blackstallion

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It varies of course; in some instances it is caught too late and the fish don’t recover. You should see them breathing slower within 3 days for velvet, maybe 5 days for ich.
Jay
Would it make sense to dose Metro into the water column again as it seems my first treatment with Copper/Metro failed? Or just treat the Velvet with Copper and assume the Brook was taken care of with the first treatment of Metro?
 
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