Velvet?

[DexterKarin]

I feel like this is probably a redundant annoyance to some of you. Apologies. Maybe I just feel like it is just different enough to venture to ask for an opinion? Well here goes.

I have a new tank. Ready for fish (nH3/nH4 and NO2 =0) and added 2 clowns (a black and an orange) on 12/30/23. Added CUC and 3 coral frags (I know that was a guilt buy). All good, regular water testing and water changes.

1/23/24 I see a dust covering on the black clown, rapid breathing, and hiding. I did a Hydrogen Peroxide dip and she rebounded. Dust went away and returned to her bitchy self. But alas.... I learned that I would have to start dosing the whole tank... new at this I was trying with 3ml/gallon x3 a day and added a UV steralizer. I also increased feeding and got things like vitamins and Selcon to help the fish immune systems. Things stabilized and fish eating well and no spots. Then dust starts showing up for half a day here and there on the black fish. Nothing I could see on the orange one yet. I seemed to be limping along but knew I was not getting the upper hand.

On 2/1/24 when I saw the dust on the orange clown. So hastily up goes a QT tank (bare bottom with pvc) and in goes the copper power, started 2/2/24. These are little clowns ( APPROX 1.25 inches) in 4 gallons of water. I put some media in from the DT and next morning ammonia spike, 50% water change, okay and get some Prime. The orange fish has really started to decline.... Prime, bubbler and nothing seems to help. He is now head up supported by some ceramic rings and gasping not moving from that location. At moment the black clown is acting normal.

I'm not sure what I need here. I guess does this sound like velvet? I'll attach a previous photo of the dust.

heck of a start for a new person.

 

[threebuoys]

What is your copper testing out at. Copper power should be set between 2.25 and 2.50 ppm.
Also, mixing Prime and Copper is not recommended. Prime can affect the chemical bond for copper treatments and result in overdose. If ammonia is high, you will need to use water changes. Be sure to keep your copper concentration at the recommended level when you make water changes.

Ich typically will be visible for a day or two, then diminish for a day only to return as the parasites go thru their life cycle. Eventually, the spots are visible at more in number and continuously.

You said the fish were breathing rapidly. Do you have an estimate for breathes per minute? Count for 10 or 15 seconds and extrapolate to a minute. High breathing rates is more typical of velvet. Copper treats bot ich and velvet.

Another possibility is Brooklynella. That requires a different treatment.

Can you provide more photos and even a video taken under white light and perhaps we can confirm the diagnosis.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I feel like this is probably a redundant annoyance to some of you. Apologies. Maybe I just feel like it is just different enough to venture to ask for an opinion? Well here goes.

I have a new tank. Ready for fish (nH3/nH4 and NO2 =0) and added 2 clowns (a black and an orange) on 12/30/23. Added CUC and 3 coral frags (I know that was a guilt buy). All good, regular water testing and water changes.

1/23/24 I see a dust covering on the black clown, rapid breathing, and hiding. I did a Hydrogen Peroxide dip and she rebounded. Dust went away and returned to her bitchy self. But alas.... I learned that I would have to start dosing the whole tank... new at this I was trying with 3ml/gallon x3 a day and added a UV steralizer. I also increased feeding and got things like vitamins and Selcon to help the fish immune systems. Things stabilized and fish eating well and no spots. Then dust starts showing up for half a day here and there on the black fish. Nothing I could see on the orange one yet. I seemed to be limping along but knew I was not getting the upper hand.

On 2/1/24 when I saw the dust on the orange clown. So hastily up goes a QT tank (bare bottom with pvc) and in goes the copper power, started 2/2/24. These are little clowns ( APPROX 1.25 inches) in 4 gallons of water. I put some media in from the DT and next morning ammonia spike, 50% water change, okay and get some Prime. The orange fish has really started to decline.... Prime, bubbler and nothing seems to help. He is now head up supported by some ceramic rings and gasping not moving from that location. At moment the black clown is acting normal.

I'm not sure what I need here. I guess does this sound like velvet? I'll attach a previous photo of the dust.

heck of a start for a new person.

Too small to be velvet but appears to be ich. You will need to place fish in Quarantine tank and treat with Coppersafe or Copper Power at therapeutic level 2.25-2.5 For a FULL 30 days (do not interrupt this 30 day period) monitored by a reliable Copper Test kit such as Hanna Brand- No API brand. Also monitor Ammonia levels while in quarantine with a reliable test kit and add aeration during treatment using an air stone.
The display tank will have to be kept fishless (FALLOW) for 6-8 weeks to assure the existing parasites go through their life cycle without a host fish and die off
A quarantine tank can be as simple as a tank from a second hand store or a starter kit from Walmart which most of the needed essentials.

 

[MnFish1]

I apologize - I don't understand - too small to be velvet, but appears to be ich? Ich is usually larger than velvet? I thought it looked like brooklynella myself?

 

[DexterKarin]

Yes, I thought if you could count them it is Ich and if you can't because small and many it is velvet?

Copper Power was added at 2.5ppm and I did not ramp that up. I read two protocols, one said to ramp up to 2.5 and the other said to go full dose right away. I read those after I put fish in at full strength. Read something that you can use prime with copper power but not other brands. I'll double check? I only have an API tester at the moment.

Respirations by my count of the orange one is 192/minute (32 at 10 seconds)

Here are some videos. On orange, you will see some tiny white spots toward the tail. Tail starting to look a bit ragged and a dark spot on the head. He keeps going back to this site and position. If you tap the glass he comes out for a bit. The black clown doesn't show anything to my amateur eye and no significant behavior changes.

Thank you everyone.

 

[threebuoys]

I've not been able to open the video files yet. The respiration rate you counted is very high and accompanies velvet. Copper testing is critical to maintain the level between 2.25 and 2.5 ppm. I'm glad you went straight to 2.5 ppm. Anything less than 2.25 will not be effective and the stage of the infection warrants aggressive treatment.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yes, I thought if you could count them it is Ich and if you can't because small and many it is velvet?

Copper Power was added at 2.5ppm and I did not ramp that up. I read two protocols, one said to ramp up to 2.5 and the other said to go full dose right away. I read those after I put fish in at full strength. Read something that you can use prime with copper power but not other brands. I'll double check? I only have an API tester at the moment.

Respirations by my count of the orange one is 192/minute (32 at 10 seconds)

Here are some videos. On orange, you will see some tiny white spots toward the tail. Tail starting to look a bit ragged and a dark spot on the head. He keeps going back to this site and position. If you tap the glass he comes out for a bit. The black clown doesn't show anything to my amateur eye and no significant behavior changes.

Thank you everyone.

Some observations:

The orange clown has been attacked by another fish, it might have happened before you bought it, but more likely, it was the black clown. You may never see this happen, as the clowns will watch you while you are watching them. You may also see it happen, but not recognize it for what it is.

The black clown is not breating too fast. With velvet, the disease spreads so fast that it is rare to have one fish develop symptoms and not all of the others.

Velvet is a rarer disease, and the "dust" that you read about applies to freshwater velvet, a different organism. Wtih marine velvet, rapid breathing and lethargy are the main, and sometimes only symptoms. Towards the very end of the infection, you may see some skin congestion.

Hydrogen peroxide were shown in one study to control velvet, but it was a high dose dip and then the fish were moved to a sterile tank each time for three times. Putting the fish back into the same tank just reinfects them.

Correct - it is best to get copper power right to a full dose, especially if fish have severe symptoms like this.

Using Prime with any copper medication is a question. The company says not to use it with their Cupramine product. They are uner no obligation to test Prime with other brands of copper - so we are left with guessing. I try not to use any reducing agent (dechlor, formalin, ammonia remover) with any copper product.

Jay

 

[DexterKarin]

Jay and others THANK YOU. As a new person in this situation, wow... the info and work is two steps forward and 16 back. LOL, this was supposed to be a soothing hobby!

First, Jay, you are likely spot on as I was close to euthanizing the orange one as it lay on its side. But this morning in the dark, he was back up and hanging out. My first set of saltwater fish and I thought the aggression with clowns was just sorting it out. I never saw direct contact but the supposed female can be a pest for sure.

Okay, not velvet. Should assume most likely is Ick? Any chance Brook? Treatment same?

TREATMENT - MY PLAN
1. Water change and no PRIME. I put a bunch more media from the DT tank filter (ceramic rings) in there. Fingers crossed.
2. Maintain the 2.5 ppm Copper Power for 30 days.
3. Get some plexi glass and create a tank divider to separate these two.
4. Before tank divider created total blackout to minimize aggression.

One other phenomenon... when everyone was in the DT, I would turn off pump to feed and when the pump resumed it seemed to kick up a crazy amount of little white dots. I actually fished some out with a fine net. This happened several times since the showing up of whatever these fish have on their skin. Is that a clue?

A gazillion thank yous!!!!!

 

[MnFish1]

I agree with the plan. However, each of the fish should be treated, not just one. FYI

 

[Spare time]

Prime likely does nothing for ammonia. Add some biospira or fritz turbo instead

 

[MnFish1]

Prime likely does nothing for ammonia. Add some biospira or fritz turbo instead

Agree! (I think he knows because he said no Prime, but it bears repeating. In addition water changes with the appropriate copper level can help with ammonia, etc.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Jay and others THANK YOU. As a new person in this situation, wow... the info and work is two steps forward and 16 back. LOL, this was supposed to be a soothing hobby!

First, Jay, you are likely spot on as I was close to euthanizing the orange one as it lay on its side. But this morning in the dark, he was back up and hanging out. My first set of saltwater fish and I thought the aggression with clowns was just sorting it out. I never saw direct contact but the supposed female can be a pest for sure.

Okay, not velvet. Should assume most likely is Ick? Any chance Brook? Treatment same?

TREATMENT - MY PLAN
1. Water change and no PRIME. I put a bunch more media from the DT tank filter (ceramic rings) in there. Fingers crossed.
2. Maintain the 2.5 ppm Copper Power for 30 days.
3. Get some plexi glass and create a tank divider to separate these two.
4. Before tank divider created total blackout to minimize aggression.

One other phenomenon... when everyone was in the DT, I would turn off pump to feed and when the pump resumed it seemed to kick up a crazy amount of little white dots. I actually fished some out with a fine net. This happened several times since the showing up of whatever these fish have on their skin. Is that a clue?

A gazillion thank yous!!!!!

Sounds like a reasonable plan. Remember though, you always need to be flexible with your plan if things change.

Not sure what the white dots are coming out of the pump, likely just detritus though.

Jay

 

[MnFish1]

Sounds like a reasonable plan. Remember though, you always need to be flexible with your plan if things change.

Not sure what the white dots are coming out of the pump, likely just detritus though.

Jay

(or bubbles)?

 

[DexterKarin]

One last thing.... do you folks have an idea of a diagnosis? At least a hunch? If not velvet then is the next likely Brook?

Right now both fish are alive. The black clown seems just fine and is eating and being a jerk. Her skin/scales appears clear. She is eating well. The orange little one seems weak and thin although I think ate a bit. But orange has a
lot of white tiny dots on him. It is not as pronounced as I think of Ick.

In hospital tank with 2.5 ppm copper power since 2/2/23. Has been blacked out for going on second day to minimize aggression (seems to have worked a bit) and I am right now going to fashion a divider out of plexiglass.

Thank you.

 

[MnFish1]

One last thing.... do you folks have an idea of a diagnosis? At least a hunch? If not velvet then is the next likely Brook?

Right now both fish are alive. The black clown seems just fine and is eating and being a jerk. Her skin/scales appears clear. She is eating well. The orange little one seems weak and thin although I think ate a bit. But orange has a
lot of white tiny dots on him. It is not as pronounced as I think of Ick.

In hospital tank with 2.5 ppm copper power since 2/2/23. Has been blacked out for going on second day to minimize aggression (seems to have worked a bit) and I am right now going to fashion a divider out of plexiglass.

Thank you.

Not sure here - however, since you didn't put them through the regular quarantine protocol - it made sense to me to do that either way. Thus, if its velvet - it will be taken care of - if its 'nothing', it will not hurt, and if its brooklynella or something else it will get worse - which I believe is the reason @Jay Hemdal said its great to have a plan but be willing to change it as needed.

 

[Tired]

Velvet can definitely look like dust on the fish. That's what it looked like on my female clown, confirmed via skin scraping and looking at it under a microscope. Granted it can and often does kill before it shows up on the skin, but it can be a dust.

OP, the fish all need to come out and go in a treatment tank at once, and your tank will likely need to sit fallow to let whatever this is die off. If you have a microscope available, you can follow the instructions here: https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/take-a-skin-scrape.513/ to find out precisely what that is.

Because I saw euthanasia mentioned: that is absolutely something to keep in mind, as a fish that won't recover shouldn't be left to suffer and die, but you do need to have an appropriate method. Clove oil is likely the easiest for you to get ahold of. You put the fish in a separate container, put a few drops of clove oil in a bottle with some tank water, shake violently to mix the oil in, then use an airline to drip the oil-water mixture slowly into the container with the fish. It has to be added slowly because it's an irritant at high levels- you want the fish unconscious before it hits those levels. Crushing the entire head at once, or, for large fish, pithing, are humane but somewhat difficult methods. Freezing, despite being frequently advised, is not proven to be humane.