We all know..do we??

[Jakef150]

Yeah- these are good... Sometime regrent batch can be bad

 

[Diesel]

I send my water of every month for only $49 they check everything in a lab.
So far so good but the day that they check I'll make some own test on ALK, CAL, MAG, K, and PO4.
Just to see if my testers are off and if so by how much!!

Test results 02/05/2014
Done by Aquarium Water Testing

Ammonia (NH3-4) Good 0 ---- 0.000 - 0.050 mg/L
Nitrite (NO2) Good 0.01 ---- 0.000 - 0.100 mg/L
Phosphate (PO4) Good 0.08 ---- 0.000 - 0.250 mg/L ............. my own test 0.09
Nitrate (NO3) Good 3.8 ---- 0.000 - 25.000 mg/L
Silica (Sio2-3) Good 0.2 ---- 0.000 - 0.500 mg/L
Potassium (K) Good 395 ----- 350.000 - 450.000 mg/L.............my own test 390
Ionic Calcium (Ca) Good 145 ---- 100.000 - 300.000 mg/L
Boron (B) NA NA ---- 3.000 - 6.000 mg/L
Molybdenum (Mo) Good 0.1 ---- 0.000 - 0.120 mg/L
Strontium (Sr) Good 8.9 --- 5.000 - 12.000 mg/L
Magnesium (Mg) High 1475 ---- 1100.000 - 1400.000 mg/L .............my own test 1440
Iodine (I) Low 0.01 ---- 0.030 - 0.090 mg/L
Copper (Cu) Good 0.01 ----- 0.000 - 0.030 mg/L
Alkalinity (meq/L) Good 3 --- 2.500 - 5.000 meq/L ...............my own test DKH 8.4
Total Calcium (Ca) Good 440 --- 0.000 - 0.010 mg/L ............my own test 420

I'm using checkers,

Alk, Hanna
PO4, Hanna http://hannainst.com/usa/prods2.cfm?id=009001&ProdCode=HI 96713
Cal Pro, Red Sea
Mag Pro, Red Sea
K Pro, Red Sea and Korallen-zucht (zeo)

I'm happy with what I'm doing and not try to reinvent the wheel all over.
It's all out there up for grab, just some long term research and listing to the Pro's, lol!

 

[bobf216]

was running my tank at .02-.03 and my growth was moderate and the colors were pale. i have slowed the flow in my gfo reactor and my PO4 has risen to about .06 and the colors are taking on a nice deep, rich coloration and growth has picked up.

 

[ValorG]

After I started running gfo because I heard high phosphates reduced calcification in sps I had more algae issues. From what I'm reading, I'll try running my tank without a gfo.

 

[howaboutme]

Great article you wrote and have enjoyed the great debate over on the other site, please keep it coming

+1

Every new (and hopefully established) person in this hobby should read. If you have an open mind, you will learn a lot of more and ask better and different questions than what is usually pushed by the average hobbyist.

 

[turbo21]

But here's the rub; studies have shown growth rates decrease once PO4 levels exceed 0.03ppm.

There's certainly a balance to be had.

I keep hearing about these studies but no one can ever show them

The magic number of .03 seems to have been pulled out of the air

Bob

 

[evolved]

Which studies are you referring to? Thanks!

I keep hearing about these studies but no one can ever show them

The magic number of .03 seems to have been pulled out of the air

A lot of it stems back to the go-to reference for reef keeping parameters; the famous Holmes Farley article: Reef Aquarium Water Parameters by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

But there are some scientific studies such support such; here's a good example: http://aslo.org/lo/toc/vol_24/issue_5/0935.pdf

However, there are other studies, such as this one, which indicate elevated phosphates actually accelerated growth but caused less dense skeletons: ENCORE: the effect of nutrient enrichment on... [Mar Pollut Bull. 2001] - PubMed - NCBI


Related, these are interesting too.
http://www.aslo.org/lo/toc/vol_45/issue_1/0246.pdf
Effect of nutrient enrichment on growth and photosynthesis of the zooxanthellate coral Stylophora pistillata - Springer

 

[Thales]

Yeah, we cover those in the current article.

 

[turbo21]

Right off the bat

In randy Holmes farleys article he states that these are his opinions and opinions of other aquarist. Not fact


The second article talks about the increased po4 levels on a wild reef. But there is a tiny little part in there that says they think the decrease growth was becasue of an increase in other filter feeders that are basically using up the food supply. So the decreased growth was from lack of food not from phosphate

I didn't get a chance to check the other ones out yet

Bob

 

[Sahin]

Some good discussions thoughts running through this thread. Keep it going guys. Anyone else with "high" PO4 (ie near 0.1ppm) with good SPS colours? Take part, dont be shy, we dont have scientific studies being carried out directly related to the hobby; so your involvement here will help further the hobby.

 

[Battlecorals]

I have been pretty skeptical of the whole phosphate craze from the beginning. Maybe it's just because these hannas never seemed accurate to me or that I never had any dramatic results at either spectrum of any measurement.

My main system read this a few minutes ago and these are some top down shots from my little display tank(plumbed into main) Wednesday.

I know I am in the wee minority here but I really don't see what all the fuss is about phosphate? According to this thing mine are sky high high if not in the "danger zone":nono: :tape2::tape2::tape2:. My acros would tell a different story .........

test 1

test 2

some quick shots from the young tank. Under radion g2

 

[turbo21]

I think tanks that show increased algae growth with levels over . 04 also have high levels of iron and iron is what is fueling the growth not the po4.
And where do you ask is the increased iron level coming from?
From gfo. IMO

 

[Nano sapiens]

This article (Finding the right level of nutrients for corals ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog) links to a more scientific analysis of increased nutrients on coral reefs and the long term consequences for wild corals:

Impacts of nutrient enrichment on coral reefs: new perspectives and implications for coastal management and reef survival

There is a lot of interesting information in this article, but not all of it is directly applicable to corals in a captive environment (ie: phytoplankton blooms in nature and their potential effects on the reef).

 

[Diesel]

Adam, thanks for jumping on the bandwagon.
Need to test my PO4 today or tomorrow, trying to get it around the 0.1/0.12.
Seeing too much results in SPS tanks doing so awesome with a PO4 higher than 0.1.
35 Strong like a string...........Twiny or Vines?
37 Burkina................Faso.
50 more pretentious.......... Artier or Artsier?

 

[Battlecorals]

lol. nice one

I got twiny, faso and artier

stuck on disparity and rebuff??

 

[Sahin]

I have been pretty skeptical of the whole phosphate craze from the beginning. Maybe it's just because these hannas never seemed accurate to me or that I never had any dramatic results at either spectrum of any measurement.

My main system read this a few minutes ago and these are some top down shots from my little display tank(plumbed into main) Wednesday.

I know I am in the wee minority here but I really don't see what all the fuss is about phosphate? According to this thing mine are sky high high if not in the "danger zone":nono: :tape2::tape2::tape2:. My acros would tell a different story .........

test 1

test 2

some quick shots from the young tank. Under radion g2

Awesome input into this VERY interesting thread.

I started keeping SPS more than 10 years ago and at that time didnt measure PO4 or even have a test kit for it. I had a tang, a bunch or snails and some hermits which kept the tank algae free...god knows what the PO4 level was...My SPS had very good colours! And I didnt even need to work hard to get it, water changes, Kalk, Metal Halide and a bunch of fish was all thats needed.

Fast forward slightly and the ULNS craze started...

I took my GFO reactor offline a couple of weeks ago, and so far my PO4 is staying low...but has risen slightly to around 0.03ppm. I'd like to see what happens when it gets nearer to 0.1ppm.

I was spending more on GFO per month than on salt...

 

[Battlecorals]

Awesome input into this VERY interesting thread.

I started keeping SPS more than 10 years ago and at that time didnt measure PO4 or even have a test kit for it. I had a tang, a bunch or snails and some hermits which kept the tank algae free...god knows what the PO4 level was...My SPS had very good colours! And I didnt even need to work hard to get it, water changes, Kalk, Metal Halide and a bunch of fish was all thats needed.

Fast forward slightly and the ULNS craze started...

I took my GFO reactor offline a couple of weeks ago, and so far my PO4 is staying low...but has risen slightly to around 0.03ppm. I'd like to see what happens when it gets nearer to 0.1ppm.

I was spending more on GFO per month than on salt...

right. like there was a time when..........


I think those of us that had thriving sps tanks before the "phosphate craze" really took off were fortunate. We at least knew different and had seen sps thrive with out any knowledge of problematic phosphate. I think where things got a little out of hand was when newcomers saw or were made to believe that gfo was an essential tool for success that
their tanks had never been run with out it. In a sense thay had no idea and the concept has kind of snowballed. And not that i didn't jump on it myslef. I just ultimatley gave up on the accuracy and consistancy of the test kit, put it in the drawer and left it there. To this day, I dont believe that I have ever experienced any dramatic effect of reduced or elevated phos. At least as whatever the test read.

 

[turbo21]

Ben

Do the results from aquarium water testing give you iron results?

I would be really curious to see if there is a connection between increased iron levels and higher phosphate causing increased algae growth

Here is a breakdown if what we know

They say if you have increased levels of phosphate. Sps growth will be stunted. Colors will brown and skeletons will become less dense

Every study done has also shown an increase in algae growth with increased po4
Obviously with all of the tanks out there running higher po4 levels that don't have extreme algae outbreaks the. The first statement in false
There has to be something else that is increasing with the p04 level that is causing the algae growth. Correct? Or everyone would see it. Algae is not fueled by Phos alone. And the IMO the next logical nutrient would be iron
So a combination of high iron and phosphate may contribute to the increase in algae

And ready for the good part. All of the studies done that show increase po4 levels note that it's not the phosphate that causes harm to the sps it is the increase on algae and filter feeders which in turn is causing the sps to starve and cause browning decreased growth and less dense skeletons

Thoughts?

Bob

 

[Diesel]

Ben

Do the results from aquarium water testing give you iron results?

I would be really curious to see if there is a connection between increased iron levels and higher phosphate causing increased algae growth

Here is a breakdown if what we know

They say if you have increased levels of phosphate. Sps growth will be stunted. Colors will brown and skeletons will become less dense

Every study done has also shown an increase in algae growth with increased po4
Obviously with all of the tanks out there running higher po4 levels that don't have extreme algae outbreaks the. The first statement in false
There has to be something else that is increasing with the p04 level that is causing the algae growth. Correct? Or everyone would see it. Algae is not fueled by Phos alone. And the IMO the next logical nutrient would be iron
So a combination of high iron and phosphate may contribute to the increase in algae

And ready for the good part. All of the studies done that show increase po4 levels note that it's not the phosphate that causes harm to the sps it is the increase on algae and filter feeders which in turn is causing the sps to starve and cause browning decreased growth and less dense skeletons

Thoughts?

Bob

No they don't.
I can ask for it next time but I think when I test for iron I always get 0.
Never thought about it, as I know it isn't as a important factor for corals, but I can be wrong, please fill in if you know more on that.

What I do know is that there are two kinds of PO4's in saltwater, Soluble reactive phosphates (SRP) and Organic phosphates.
The SRP is a inorganic form of PO4, it's in your water and we pay a lot of attention to get rid of it with all kinds of PO4 removers one of them we all know as GFO.
What we measuring in our testers..........that is SRP's.
It's easy consumed by algae, bacteria and corals.
SRP's are only 2% of our problems with algae in our tanks.
Organic PO4's are more of a trouble.
One positive aspect is that algae can't do anything with organic PO4's.
Organic PO4's are in anything mainly rock, corals and sand etc, but not in your water.
That's why your tester isn't picking them up and all you test is low PO4 and lots of algae growth.
There's always a key point to it and that's balance.
If you can find the balance in your tank with 0.18 po4 than your corals still can do great.
As your buddy reefer is spending tons of $$$ to keep his PO4 at 0.03 and have the same results cause he's dosing coral food that will be consumed by corals and........yep ALGAE if you have any.
Again all is ok if you balance it out.

 

[d2mini]

I have been pretty skeptical of the whole phosphate craze from the beginning. Maybe it's just because these hannas never seemed accurate to me or that I never had any dramatic results at either spectrum of any measurement.

Yup. After nearly starving my coral to death and overdosing GFO, I'm ready to toss my hanna hi736 in the trash.
Pulled GFO off the tank completely months ago, been feeding more, p04 is over .1 and sps is looking better than ever.

Adam, thanks for jumping on the bandwagon.
Need to test my PO4 today or tomorrow, trying to get it around the 0.1/0.12.
Seeing too much results in SPS tanks doing so awesome with a PO4 higher than 0.1.

I wouldn't try to get it anywhere... I would just ignore it and let it be what it be.
Looking at your earlier post, i see our nitrates are now the same, too.
Good to see you coming around to the dirty side. ha!