When science got it wrong...

[cb684]

It is amazing how the perception of science is going through a rough path. And it is almost funny to say it, but people is getting skeptical about science. I believe the reason of this skepticism is all the times science got it wrong. But this is silly.

It is silly because is inherent to science to get things somewhat wrong. Or better, frequently science is only partially right, and as time passes it is less wrong and more right. So why trust on science? Because it is the best option and because it works. The methodology is designed to lead to a understanding (of virtually any topic) that is more and more accurate as time passes.

It is also silly because people is getting more skeptical about science (and that is ok) and less skeptical about other sources of knowledge that frequently cannot be tested, and for that reason alone cannot fail (this is not ok). Skepticism is in the core of scientific method, but so it is the ability of changing your mind. That is why and how science advances, often changing its state to a more accurate one. One cannot be a good scientist without accepting being wrong and thus changing his mind. And that happens frequently!

In a typical scientific experiment an hypothesis is formulated based on observation and then is tested. Very similar to what we see happening here every day. Or, is it? The main difference in my opinion is on the test. In science, this test is designed to prove that your hypothesis is wrong and not to prove that it is wright. And only then, when your test fails to prove it wrong, your conclusion is that it may be right.

So what is my point? My point is that criticism is not bad, it actually means that someone took his time to think about your idea and raise pertinent questions about it. That skepticism is not personal, is part of a methodology to refine your idea. Also, being wrong is not all bad. It will likely save you time and money if you realize you are wrong as fast as possible. So do not get upset if that happens, you are a better reefer after, then you were before you realize the flaws of your idea. And that is the whole point, isn't it?

Here is a good reading to reflect: http://packedhead.net/2011/skeptical-reefkeeping-experts-and-changing-your-mind/

 

[Thales]

Thanks!
The idea that because science gets things wrong sometimes misses two points. 1) Science is a method for checking and correcting when it is wrong and 2) 'not science' is wrong far more often than science but somehow people ignore that.
I also find interesting that when people ask for more evidence the reaction is often 'I can't afford to do a full blown scientific test, that is never going to happen'. There is more than the two extremes of anecdote and rigorous peer review. I hope to address this soon in an article.
Finally, when someone says 'I'd like to see more evidence' they aren't saying 'you and your idea are stupid', they are simply saying they would like to see more convincing evidence.

 

[twilliard]

Nice thread!
Headed for my bachelor of Science this fall!

 

[cb684]

It would probably be a good idea to have some written basic guideline for testing of new technologies/methodologies in reef keeping. Something that would help people to isolate variables and understand the weaknesses / strengths of the methods and learn about data collection. A lot of people spend time and money testing new things and would benefit of something like that. A thread / forum where people can ask for help on how to design an experiment that can have any meaning and what data to collect.

 

[twilliard]

It would probably be a good idea to have some written basic guideline for testing of new technologies/methodologies in reef keeping. Something that would help people to isolate variables and understand the weaknesses / strengths of the methods and learn about data collection. A lot of people spend time and money testing new things and would benefit of something like that. A thread / forum where people can ask for help on how to design an experiment that can have any meaning and what data to collect.

I agree on this.
For instance bought a new microscope to have the ability to back up findings with visual data.
I don't write thesis papers but do write set methods with conclusions
I love science but don't see much applied anymore.

 

[ENARP]

silly because people is getting more skeptical

 

[cb684]

I agree on this.
For instance bought a new microscope to have the ability to back up findings with visual data.
I don't write thesis papers but do write set methods with conclusions
I love science but don't see much applied anymore.

It can be tedious to do it right sometimes, it takes a lot of patience. It is also frustrating to be wrong... But I feel it is very rewarding to participate in the process.

 

[twilliard]

It can be tedious to do it right sometimes, it takes a lot of patience. It is also frustrating to be wrong... But I feel it is very rewarding to participate in the process.

Yes when a test situation goes wrong or not as expected it takes dedication to backup, look over current data and resolve.
2 steps forward most always include 1 step back

 

[Thales]

I have an article coming out soon that talks about simple science and how it can impact the reefing community. Most of the time all we need is more than anecdote. Twillard, I love the stuff you are doing!

 

[cb684]

I have an article coming out soon that talks about simple science and how it can impact the reefing community. Most of the time all we need is more than anecdote. Twillard, I love the stuff you are doing!

I just found the other articles on the Skeptical Reefkeeping series... I guess it just got easier to explain where I am coming from in some of my skeptical posts ;-)
Thanks

Articles

 

[Squamosa]

I am in wholehearted agreement as to the use of citizen science to bring non researchers (members of the community) and professional scientists together to enhance awareness of science, solve some problems and add to the knowledge base.

For those of you who may not be aware, professional scientists and community members have relationships based on different research projects1.

A partnership can be, co-created, where citizen scientists and scientists work together on all forms of the research project, this was suggested by the OP in a comment where he states he and others could benefit from help in the collection of data or learning how to process data, as an example.

The gathering and processing of data is also known as a collaborative project.

Another relationship that might be of interest would be a collaborative one, this is where citizens move further into the research field and collaborate on project design or analysis.

What is heartening is that many of these research projects are well suited to participation by members of the reefing community, who are able to follow the principles of scientific inquiry2 and then make valuable contributions to our hobby. However, all this enthusiasm to leap forward and start ‘doing science’ should be tempered with the fact that some projects that require complex observation or data collection techniques will often call for skills that only years of professional training and experience provide and these projects may have to provide citizen science with support and extra training, where appropriate. This method often utilizes fewer citizen scientists for accuracy3

But after all that is said and done, citizen science and the input of the community is an invaluable resource we should utilize, look at what advantages it gives. Citizen scientist gain new knowledge, skills and are empowered. Researchers benefit from greater access to resources (your aquariums) and the scale of data collection increases dramatically.

Society benefits too by getting a greater insight into scientific principles (building science literacy), are more engaged with their environment and they actually want to help us.

Just look at the resources we have available today at our disposal in the community. New technologies are enabling data collection with more accuracy and precision than ever before, just look at the amount of people with smartphones and very sophisticated high-end camera systems, these citizens have the capacity for a high degree of accuracy in observations, allowing automated data collection and creating rigour through the potential of post-processing.

Just look at what citizen scientist have achieved: here in my native Australia, school children participate in conjunction with universities, in counting koalas to enable scientist to develop a distribution model4

Citizen scientist here and around the world have discovered new species, the peacock spider5 being just one very recent example and we’ve even explored the oceans by analysing thousands of images of sea floor habitat6

I think this topic should be on a separate topic where people can go and maybe ask questions or approach a scientist. I for one will offer any advice I can give, especially when it comes down to explain the science to the lay-person. After all, we don’t want to scare people away with jargon and such like.

References:

1. Lewenstein, B. 2004. "What does citizen science accomplish?". Cornell University.

2. Wrinch, D. and Jeffreys, H., 1921. XLII. On certain fundamental principles of scientific inquiry. The London, Edinburgh, and Dublin Philosophical Magazine and Journal of Science, 42(249), pp.369-390.

3. Stireman, J.O., Dyer, L.A., Janzen, D.H., Singer, M.S., Lill, J.T., Marquis, R.J., Ricklefs, R.E., Gentry, G.L., Hallwachs, W., Coley, P.D. and Barone, J.A., 2005. Climatic unpredictability and parasitism of caterpillars: implications of global warming. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, 102(48), pp.17384-17387.

4. http://www.imas.utas.edu.au/news/ne...ns-are-becoming-passionate-citizen-scientists

5. https://www.researchgate.net/figure...arrisi-discovered-by-citizen-scientist-Stuart

6. http://exploretheseafloor.net.au/

 

[twilliard]

I am in wholehearted agreement as to the use of citizen science to bring non researchers (members of the community) and professional scientists together to enhance awareness of science, solve some problems and add to the knowledge base.

For those of you who may not be aware, professional scientists and community members have relationships based on different research projects1.

A partnership can be, co-created, where citizen scientists and scientists work together on all forms of the research project, this was suggested by the OP in a comment where he states he and others could benefit from help in the collection of data or learning how to process data, as an example.

The gathering and processing of data is also known as a collaborative project.

Another relationship that might be of interest would be a collaborative one, this is where citizens move further into the research field and collaborate on project design or analysis.

What is heartening is that many of these research projects are well suited to participation by members of the reefing community, who are able to follow the principles of scientific inquiry2 and then make valuable contributions to our hobby. However, all this enthusiasm to leap forward and start ‘doing science’ should be tempered with the fact that some projects that require complex observation or data collection techniques will often call for skills that only years of professional training and experience provide and these projects may have to provide citizen science with support and extra training, where appropriate. This method often utilizes fewer citizen scientists for accuracy3

But after all that is said and done, citizen science and the input of the community is an invaluable resource we should utilize, look at what advantages it gives. Citizen scientist gain new knowledge, skills and are empowered. Researchers benefit from greater access to resources (your aquariums) and the scale of data collection increases dramatically.

Society benefits too by getting a greater insight into scientific principles (building science literacy), are more engaged with their environment and they actually want to help us.

Just look at the resources we have available today at our disposal in the community. New technologies are enabling data collection with more accuracy and precision than ever before, just look at the amount of people with smartphones and very sophisticated high-end camera systems, these citizens have the capacity for a high degree of accuracy in observations, allowing automated data collection and creating rigour through the potential of post-processing.

Just look at what citizen scientist have achieved: here in my native Australia, school children participate in conjunction with universities, in counting koalas to enable scientist to develop a distribution model4

Citizen scientist here and around the world have discovered new species, the peacock spider5 being just one very recent example and we’ve even explored the oceans by analysing thousands of images of sea floor habitat6

I think this topic should be on a separate topic where people can go and maybe ask questions or approach a scientist. I for one will offer any advice I can give, especially when it comes down to explain the science to the lay-person. After all, we don’t want to scare people away with jargon and such like.

References:

1. Lewenstein, B. 2004. "What does citizen science accomplish?". Cornell University.

2. Wrinch, D. and Jeffreys, H., 1921. XLII. On certain fundamental principles of scientific inquiry. The London, Edinburgh, and Dublin Philosophical Magazine and Journal of Science, 42(249), pp.369-390.

3. Stireman, J.O., Dyer, L.A., Janzen, D.H., Singer, M.S., Lill, J.T., Marquis, R.J., Ricklefs, R.E., Gentry, G.L., Hallwachs, W., Coley, P.D. and Barone, J.A., 2005. Climatic unpredictability and parasitism of caterpillars: implications of global warming. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, 102(48), pp.17384-17387.

4. http://www.imas.utas.edu.au/news/ne...ns-are-becoming-passionate-citizen-scientists

5. https://www.researchgate.net/figure...arrisi-discovered-by-citizen-scientist-Stuart

6. http://exploretheseafloor.net.au/

Nice very nice and thank you!

 

[Squamosa]

Nice very nice and thank you!

You're most welcome :

 

[Reeflogic]

At the end of the day, we are all humans, we are all on the same team and from what I can tell, we all cherish the same thing....The most amazing thing on this planet, Ocean life. This may not relate to this thread, but I want to share it anyways. My parents allowed me to have aquariums at a very young age, it grew into a passion, my friends all called me a fish-head growing up. I loved that! I had dreams of becoming a marine biologist, I really wanted to work with great whites, or specialize in them. Along the age of 17-18, I made some mistakes, ended up being a father... This changed everything for me. I had to get 2 jobs, tried to go to college at first, but found I didn't have the time and kept saying, I will get back to it eventually. I became a parent at a very young age and a sole provider for my little family and lost hope for my dreams and aspirations.

I continued in the hobby with both freshwater and marine over the next 30 years, obviously changed direction in career choices, but I feel I have something to offer people, in just experience alone. I'm not a scientist and I'm certainly not the most knowledgeable person in the hobby, but I do know enough to make my own decisions, hypotheses and draw my own conclusions. So, what am I trying to say here? I'm saying that I feel there needs to be a mutual respect from both a scientific approach and a non-scientific approach, or from scientists to non-scientists. We all contribute in certain ways, it boils down to how we communicate and respect one another.

I made the post that led to your post @cb684 , which really would have never happened, had a few of us given the other few a little more respect. From a non-scientist point of view, or in this case, just a regular Joe Hobbyist point of view, sometimes it is felt that those with a long list of degrees or tenure can be condescending to the average Joe Hobbyist, but then, on the other hand, Joe Hobbyist can lash out and be rude to the experts in the field, for no apparent reason. Pride more than likely.

The skeptical Reefkeeping articles help bridge the gap, in my opinion, and it did open my eyes to have more respect for scientists and all they do, not only this hobby but everything they research. However, it is a two-way street and I think we can all afford to be less critical of each other, especially in the heat of the moment and when reading text on a screen. Words can have different interpretations when you read them, as opposed to hearing them.

You guys are appreciated and without you, this hobby wouldn't be where it is today, but just remember, without hobbyists, there wouldn't be any discussion on technology or advanced reef-keeping, outside of an Aquarium or lab room. I hope not to offend anyone with this post, but rather, to pull the community closer together! Sincerely!

 

[revhtree]

I just found the other articles on the Skeptical Reefkeeping series... I guess it just got easier to explain where I am coming from in some of my skeptical posts ;-)
Thanks

Articles

I edited your link to go to Richard's site for the articles. You can see most of them on the right. The link you included led to a bunch of dead links in the end.

 

[cb684]

I edited your link to go to Richard's site for the articles. You can see most of them on the right. The link you included led to a bunch of dead links in the end.

Thank you!

 

[DurocShark]

One thing that's GOOD about anecdotes and pseudo science is it often provides some direction and excitement to the actual science that happens. Genuine scientific studies of things like "bacteria in a bottle" wouldn't happen if there weren't folks that believe in it, and folks that don't just as passionately. It highlights things that either would never be considered (peroxide? Bayer dips?) or are taken as "common knowledge" (no water changes?) that need to be studied and quantified.

 

[Squamosa]

made some mistakes, ended up being a father

Firstly, I'd like to say and I think you'll appreciate the fact now, that becoming a parent was never a mistake
As the proud father of 2 little 'bags of fun' I can relate to how your world must have been turned upside down.
You'll get where you want to be in the end

I have something to offer people, in just experience alone

What you have forgotten, others have yet to learn

I'm not a scientist

You don't have to be, you're a critical thinker.

without hobbyists

This is just a hobby for me too and I applaud all the 'backyard' biologists/engineers/scientists out there, trying to make sense out of this hobby

 

[Myka]

I think the biggest reason people question "science" is because they hear a lot of junk presented as science, but it lacks the actual data to back it up. People get in the habit of questioning the "science" when really they are questioning if it is science at all.

 

[Thales]

One thing that's GOOD about anecdotes and pseudo science is it often provides some direction and excitement to the actual science that happens. Genuine scientific studies of things like "bacteria in a bottle" wouldn't happen if there weren't folks that believe in it, and folks that don't just as passionately. It highlights things that either would never be considered (peroxide? Bayer dips?) or are taken as "common knowledge" (no water changes?) that need to be studied and quantified.

Has there been a study of 'Bacteria in a bottle'?