Why don't algae control writers/advisors do live time work threads in the nuisance algae forum?

[PNW_squidz]

Maybe the "reef authorities" have better things to do with their time than sit on forums all day?

 

[brandon429]

no that's justifying the fact they have zero, none, not any for their entire reefing career.

I no longer believe algae control authors can do 6% of what their article implies they can do

or talk

or book, it's all a deflection on and on and on.

I know they're master reefers in their home, no doubt

but the transmissibility of their best practices is in question, and I found the hitch, they can't demo it live time

for 20 years they could have sought out some correction jobs and not once did they.

I know of no algae writer in my entire reefing career who completed a series of outbound works in a help guidance thread.

 

[brandon429]

that standard will change. it is not hard to get the word out that reefing authors purposefully shy away from live time algae jobs because they know how hard true control is to accomplish and they just can't let that be seen in a public thread with uncontrollable outcomes.

for example, this thread can be linked in discus comments at the bottom of reef articles who teach about algae control in reefing

all the variables that come into play, home to home, they won't touch that with a ten foot pole in fact.


all we need to do is get threads that state that claim out to several pages and have them exist on the internet for two hundreds years, the motivation will eventually build and I'll get a taker.

there is at least one algae control writer out there who can't stand living this way.

 

[BeanAnimal]

no that's justifying the fact they have zero, none, not any for their entire reefing career.

Zero what? "work threads"? You are free to judge anybody or any information in any manner you wish. Just the same, other people can consume and judge information as they wish. Nobody owes or needs to justify anything to you or in your decided format for it to be valid.

I no longer believe algae control authors can do 6% of what their article implies they can do

You are free to your opinion.

I found the hitch, they can't demo it live time
for 20 years they could have sought out some correction jobs and not once did they.
I know of no algae writer in my entire reefing career who completed a series of outbound works in a help guidance thread.

Again, you are applying YOUR arbitrary criteria for credibility, not mine or the next person's. There is no requirement that credible information past through your truth sieve or any assurance that if it does, it is any more credible than any other medium of conveyance.

 

[Roadkillstewie]

that standard will change. it is not hard to get the word out that reefing authors purposefully shy away from live time algae jobs because they know how hard true control is to accomplish and they just can't let that be seen in a public thread with uncontrollable outcomes.

for example, this thread can be linked in discus comments at the bottom of reef articles who teach about algae control in reefing

all the variables that come into play, home to home, they won't touch that with a ten foot pole in fact.


all we need to do is get threads that state that claim out to several pages and have them exist on the internet for two hundreds years, the motivation will eventually build and I'll get a taker.

there is at least one algae control writer out there who can't stand living this way.

Dude, quit making assumptions in regards to the motivations/reasons of others and learn some bloody humility.

 

[Spare time]

Simple and profound statement here. We are on the leading edge of understanding and innovation, nobody truly understands the complete truth of what we are trying to accomplish. It's all experiments

The term "experiment" is woefully butchered by people on this forum. I won't point any fingers though as its so widespread.

 

[brandon429]

when my friend asked me to help them with their tank in a live thread, what would the humble response be to that?

hopefully fully engaging them quickly and with details matched to their system while being subbed to the thread for outcomes would be involved, thanking them for the work opp.


what should we label the absence of that trait, the void? if you want to review such a void in a reef forum post thread, who's permission do we need, do they need kleenex?

we can't ever call on a reef teacher for live time work? not once, not ever is that right-

 

[Spare time]

Yes, but really no.

There is very little…maybe virtually none…of what I would consider actual experiments here on this board. I’m a little bit of a stickler on this.

There are definitely a lot of experiences, but hardly any actual investigations that reveal significant data. Even looking in the ‘Experiments’ sub-forum, I don’t see targeted, specific research questions, null and alt hypotheses, independent, dependent, and control variables, repeatable procedures, ample data, standard deviation,
error bars, t-tests, p-values, Chi-squared, ANOVA, etc.

I keep promising myself that I am going to actually carry out some investigations to test a lot of what we talk about here, since I have the means to do so. But I never get around to it. All I ever offer is more experiences.

Its funny how many people on this forum believe they are "scientists" conducting "science." The actual scientific method is brutally rigorous and I get slightly irked about people stating something like "cycling science" and what not as there is no scientific method being applied. Those kind of "sciences" would be ripped to shreds by anyone who actually produces studies.

 

[brandon429]

no I don't claim to be a scientist for sure agreed.


on that note: do any scientists have work threads I can read

where they used science to affect change in someone's tank where we see the feedback live time

if those could be about algae, they'd be perfect examples here

 

[BeanAnimal]

Our debates can get heated and sometimes a bit testy, but there is no need to be outright unkind or attack anybody personally. We are having a discussion here and need to be civil to each other.

 

[jimk60]

I personally think Brandon has a lot to offer after watching his work for a long time. I also agree the way he presents it isn't always the best. I don't see anything that's going to destroy a tank and sometimes a reset is necessary.

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

no I don't claim to be a scientist for sure agreed.


on that note: do any scientists have work threads I can read

where they used science to affect change in someone's tank where we see the feedback live time

if those could be about algae, they'd be perfect examples here

I actually have a research question I wanted to investigate regarding the matter in reef tanks. It would not be super hard, and I’ve been wanting to do it for a while. It would be indirectly related to algae.

Will I have time to do it? That’s always the big question.

 

[brandon429]

the going theme here is that we can't ask for a book author or macna speaker to run some live time works, that's beyond intrusive.

it's foreign to me that anyone would view a challenge reef in that way, tons of excuses not to take it on, give it a try, at least once a decade if not for daily fun. simply not trying is holding back reefing (and filling up my work threads with lots of critic whining with no work links to any alternative they run)

the focus is on that void: how the only people in work threads are other forumverse members are helping in tank invasion rescue threads, its never the actual authorities seeing a job to completion, accountable for after performance.

who wouldn't want to see their favorite reef author work 3 challenge tanks live time?


well, apparently, if we don't press them we're never going to see them.

 

[BeanAnimal]

on that note: do any scientists have work threads I can read

where they used science to affect change in someone's tank where we see the feedback live time

I think you just clarified part of the issue, Brandon.

You consume information differently than most people, and that is your right. The rub is that you are attempting to force other people to not only accept that method, but subscribe to it AND prove their validity through it.

You asked in a prior post, so I will give my solicited advice, good or bad from my perspective.

Any "thread" with "participation" is "live". You insist on words and coinage to make everything sound scientific. I think your intention is to add credibility but the effect is to obfuscate and alienate more than to clarify or lure. You are capable of normal communications, and I think you will find you get more traction that way.

So in context to your question? You reply to the thread, like anybody else and help with whatever answers that you can provide. Don't treat everything like a "body of work" to "reference". Reference what needs to be referenced without all of the hyperbole, shaming and brow beating. Be a member of the community, not the guy on the corner preaching that we all need to see your light to be saved.

The sooner that you come to the realization that we all consume information differently and information exists (both good and poor) outside of the scientific method and outside of the confines of any particular medium or format, the sooner you will find fewer "critics" and more people open to your help and ideas.

By all means, be yourself, but realize that we are all different.

 

[BeanAnimal]

the going theme here is that we can't ask for a book author or macna speaker to run some live time works, that's beyond intrusive.

No - it is presumptuous for the reasons stated above and throughout this thread.

it's foreign to me that anyone would view a challenge reef in that way...

But it is not foreign to everyone else.

 

[Roadkillstewie]

I personally think Brandon has a lot to offer after watching his work for a long time. I also agree the way he presents it isn't always the best. I don't see anything that's going to destroy a tank and sometimes a reset is necessary.

He does... but as you state his presentation and demeanor is not appropriate to what it seems to want to accomplish.

Overly verbose when commentary should be succinct with frequent divergence from the subject, while essentially browbeating and harassing those that have not complied with his "proposed" methodology. This, ignoring certain occasional flashes that come across as arrogant and ill thought in relation to the discourse.

 

[4FordFamily]

Guys let’s play nice. Personal attacks will not be tolerated. We can disagree without belittling or attacking others.

 

[jimk60]

Guys let’s play nice. Personal attacks will not be tolerated. We can disagree without belittling or attacking others.

I agree. Might as well go back to the Facebook forums.

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

He does... but as you state his presentation and demeanor is not appropriate to what it seems to want to accomplish.

Overly verbose when commentary should be succinct with frequent divergence from the subject, while essentially browbeating and harassing those that have not complied with his "proposed" methodology. This, ignoring certain occasional flashes that come across as arrogant and ill thought in relation to the discourse.

To me, everybody in this conversation is right.

I feel like I learned to decode Brandon’s posting style a long time ago, so I can just cut through that stuff. But you all are right, as well, in that his presentation might lack finesse and muddy up his point. Certainly fair criticisms.

Brandon made a request not long ago that anybody who has actually beaten dinos in a system, rather than just eliminate them by replacing them with another nuisance algae, to start a work thread.

Because I had recently had success in doing so, I decided to try it out. First off, let me say that in no way, shape, or form was what I did or how I did it scientific. I mean, I used scientific understanding and experience as a basis to speculate that my strategy would work, but it was far short of real science.

But it was fun to kinda journal what I was doing, what my reasoning for doing so was, and what the outcomes were. It also gave me an idea for a ‘study’ that I could put together that might actually pass scientific standards for at least light research. I believe this is the kind of stuff Brandon is talking about. It gives a format that allows people to simply chronicle what they’re doing and what outcomes they achieved, without those things being in the context of advice to another poster in response to their own issue.

I think it’s kinda neat to have a body of work that people can reference if for no other reason than to see that there are truly a hundred ways to skin this dead cat.

Here it is if anybody is interested:

How I beat dinos: an ode to Brandon 429 work thread

@brandon429 asked for people to start dino elimination work threads, so here is my submission. Let me start off with a confession…I am so old, I remember when there was no such thing as a dino bloom in a reef tank. A lot of newer reefers probably can’t even imagine what it was like to set up a...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Ian_B]

To me Brandon seems to come across as sounding very superior through using his own jargon to post on what is not, and doesn’t claim to be a scientific journal database. I come here for anecdotal evidence through other people’s stories, opinions on ‘best practices’, and to generally see what is going on with other people’s tanks, but I take that all with a grain of salt. Kind of like using Wikipedia to research something. It could be a good place to start, but you can always check info with better sources.
A ‘rip clean’ could be a good way to clear out waste/detritus, but I don’t think it’s always practical for the average hobbyist. I work in a greenhouse, but I would recommend someone with houseplants to get dosatrons and a Dramm hydraulic sprayer for some spider mites on a pothos. I also see my tank as a small ecosystem that I’m trying to keep in balance. It’s a complex system with many factors and with things like that, I don’t think anything good happens quickly. I see a ‘rip clean’ as a cheat and a very extreme disturbance which we see in nature as things like a hot wildfire restarting forest succession.