Will someone please explain?

[uniquecorals]

I saw someone on FB selling a microchp frag and then showing a slightly larger frag as the "mother." I didn't know if I should laugh or feel sad....urrghh...why did I look at this stuff?

 

[Bob Vance]

Here's something to think about....

How many of these frags are being sold at that high price? We have already established this is an unethical practice in many people's eyes. So is it far fetched to consider some of these corals with the high price tag never sold for the insanely high price? Have you ever thought some of these auctions or sales are intentionally inflated to set the price of them with money never being exchanged? To me it's unethical to do so, but marketing gold at the same time. Let's say bill has a nice acro and pretends to sell a frag every week for $1500. To some $1500 becomes a fair market value because 5 other people bought it for $1500. Man, my car didn't cost much more than $1500 so there's no way I would pay that much for a single coral. I might not have spent that much filling my entire tank!

You mak a great point Pete. And since it doesn't cost them anything to post these inflated prices they aren't out anything if the coral doesn't move. So they can just keep growing it out and keep posting until some sucker comes along and buys a booger for a few hundred bucks.

 

[Braves Fan]

Very good read I see vendors, some are sponsors to this Forum, and considered some of the best vendors in the country. In the past I would go to their sites and window shop, buy a few (more than a few in some cases) corals here and there, now I hardly ever even click onto their sites. In the past you could go to their sites and buy $40 to $80 frags,, now there isn't a frag on their sites (for the most part) less than $150 and those are the cheap one's To top it off, they say on their sites the frag in 3/4 to 1 inch,,, its closer to 1/2 inch when you take it out of the bag ,,, I was looking at a Blasto the other day that I want on a vendors site that I still buy corals from, a sponsor to this Forum, they are asking $250 for that single head Blasto frag,,, found that same coral on a FB vendors page,,, $60 ,,, take a guess as to who got my money. I am not sticking up for FB vendors here, they are as bad as all of the better online vendors. My point is, from $60 to $250 is a big spread, imo way to big of a spread,,,, I will pay up for a really nice coral, but it has to be really nice coral, can't be a booger frag or I just won't play ,,,

 

[nervousmonkey]

Ok Scott, so I totally agree with you and here is my dime store psychology for the reasons behind this....

I think we are all so patient on getting our systems up and running that we may not be able to help ourselves when it come to livestock.....Just Ideas for thought

I believe that the last sentence is the real reason why. Almost everyone is impatient, to the point that we have become a culture of instant gratification. We have taught ourselves, typically through loss or damage to our systems, that we need to be patient, but all of the choices out there allow to become impatient again and gratify ourselves on a new purchase that people are willing to spend far too much. I think this happens because everything we do in this hobby gets expensive and we can justify the cost one way or another. "An $800 skimmer is worth it..." so when we see a cool coral that would complement other corals in our tanks, we forget about the cost. All of have done this at one point or another, whether it's livestock or equipment. The part that bites is that the ebay/garage store/facebook guys are undermining the true brick and mortar guys that we have come to rely on. The fact that we can learn so much from online places, like here, also has changed the way we buy now. We used to HAVE to go to a store to buy something fun on a Friday night, but now, we can just buy anywhere... OK, enough on the rant. I agree with what everyone has said here, but there is certainly a change underfoot in the hobby, and I hope it plays out well, so that we can all afford to stay in the hobby. If it doesn't change, I am afraid we will lose a lot of people, and with them, their knowledge. Enough for now...

 

[Diesel]

Great topic Scott and great replies.
Sometimes I wonder...........Are we still loving the hobby as it is designed for or........................ well fill in the blanks.
When we have corals we suddenly realize we have to frag them, and now what to do with them??
I like the acro stuff and I don't mind if the coral looks good to pay the price, I never ever questioned a price.
Knowing where and from who you buy the frags from you'll know also what size you'll get.
Myself, yes I got awesome colored frags other will call the RARE, SIGNATURE, LE, or what ever and in most cases I don't even remember the name.
Yes I frag but only when corals start to bothering them self as the so called coral-warfare :mad:
Some of the frags are nice frags 1"+ with multiple branches but also the darn fragments as I hate to throw them out.
What I do to sell is that I let them encrusted on the plug, sometimes for weeks and post them for sale local but in most case as a random acro pack of my choice.
It's a lot easier for me as a hobbyist that way.
Local hobbyist call, text and PM me asking for what I have sitting around and if I have time invite them over to scroll through the frag tank.
Ppl ask me what is that and this called............ simple answer you get from me is where I got it from but don't know the name any more.
Any random four acro frags $25 a pack, and I don't have the green slimmer or even a SSC but just some unknown nice colored frags.
Yes I do know the names but it's easier just for not knowing them
Reply's I get later is "Ben what you sold me I think that was a Pikachu and a Rainbow Milli, not sure about the other two but I think it's one of your Goldrushes from that awesome colony you have"
In all cases ppl leave my home with baggies of frags small or large but they are happy as for what they pay for.
Ppl like my coral packs, they like my corals big or small and the like the way I do business, I love this hobby as it is.
My wife sometimes tells me that I should start a business on the side with it and I probably could but I don't want to take time away from my business I already run and most important family time.

 

[uniquecorals]

Great topic Scott and great replies.
Sometimes I wonder...........Are we still loving the hobby as it is designed for or........................ well fill in the blanks.
When we have corals we suddenly realize we have to frag them, and now what to do with them??
I like the acro stuff and I don't mind if the coral looks good to pay the price, I never ever questioned a price.
Knowing where and from who you buy the frags from you'll know also what size you'll get.
Myself, yes I got awesome colored frags other will call the RARE, SIGNATURE, LE, or what ever and in most cases I don't even remember the name.
Yes I frag but only when corals start to bothering them self as the so called coral-warfare :mad:
Some of the frags are nice frags 1"+ with multiple branches but also the darn fragments as I hate to throw them out.
What I do to sell is that I let them encrusted on the plug, sometimes for weeks and post them for sale local but in most case as a random acro pack of my choice.
It's a lot easier for me as a hobbyist that way.
Local hobbyist call, text and PM me asking for what I have sitting around and if I have time invite them over to scroll through the frag tank.
Ppl ask me what is that and this called............ simple answer you get from me is where I got it from but don't know the name any more.
Any random four acro frags $25 a pack, and I don't have the green slimmer or even a SSC but just some unknown nice colored frags.
Yes I do know the names but it's easier just for not knowing them
Reply's I get later is "Ben what you sold me I think that was a Pikachu and a Rainbow Milli, not sure about the other two but I think it's one of your Goldrushes from that awesome colony you have"
In all cases ppl leave my home with baggies of frags small or large but they are happy as for what they pay for.
Ppl like my coral packs, they like my corals big or small and the like the way I do business, I love this hobby as it is.
My wife sometimes tells me that I should start a business on the side with it and I probably could but I don't want to take time away from my business I already run and most important family time.

I totally hear you, Ben...The naming of corals does help for ID purposes and conversation...but it gets pretty ridiculous when 6 different "vendors" have 6 different names for the same coral, and inconsistent photo editing that makes theirs "different" than the other 5, which are, in actuality, the identical coral....it can make your head spin. There will always be room for real trading and selling at fair prices, and the key is an educated, confident consumer that buys what he or she likes because...well, he or she likes the coral- not because it's gonna make them more popular somewhere. That's another real important message.

 

[uniquecorals]

I believe that the last sentence is the real reason why. Almost everyone is impatient, to the point that we have become a culture of instant gratification. We have taught ourselves, typically through loss or damage to our systems, that we need to be patient, but all of the choices out there allow to become impatient again and gratify ourselves on a new purchase that people are willing to spend far too much. I think this happens because everything we do in this hobby gets expensive and we can justify the cost one way or another. "An $800 skimmer is worth it..." so when we see a cool coral that would complement other corals in our tanks, we forget about the cost. All of have done this at one point or another, whether it's livestock or equipment. The part that bites is that the ebay/garage store/facebook guys are undermining the true brick and mortar guys that we have come to rely on. The fact that we can learn so much from online places, like here, also has changed the way we buy now. We used to HAVE to go to a store to buy something fun on a Friday night, but now, we can just buy anywhere... OK, enough on the rant. I agree with what everyone has said here, but there is certainly a change underfoot in the hobby, and I hope it plays out well, so that we can all afford to stay in the hobby. If it doesn't change, I am afraid we will lose a lot of people, and with them, their knowledge. Enough for now...

Great points and take on this...Let's face it- the market has changed- is continuing to change- I love that...I think evolution of the coral market is a good thing, when changes occur that are beneficial, ethical, and economically sustainable. It seems like on every FB post there is a new "coral vendor" out there, which is both cool to see (as someone who supports entrepreneurship), and a little scary (because there is a certain "vibe" some of these people give off that's all about "the sale" and nothing else, which makes any legitimate business person a bit, well- sad..). It's the era of self-empowerment; of "I can get it now!" With social media flourishing, the ability to affect change, give feedback, enhance (or severely damage) a vendor's reputation in a very short amount of time is possible. I suppose this can weed out some of the bad actors and lousy "businesses" (just because you have a cool name and watermark on your hyper-photoshopped pic doesn't mean your a business, btw...I wonder how many of these "businesses" are registered with the IRS, insured, licensed...? Another rant for another time...) in just about any market. There will always be a place for good, honest business people and ethical practices.

I just hope that the microfrag guys don't chase off too many good hobbyists with their hype-zone "marketing" and the ridiculous. myopic marketplace that seems to be emerging daily from parts of this fray. It reminds me more of online gaming than it does the reef hobby in that arena! I hope that better reef keeping practices emerge besides fragging a "mother colony" when it hits 3/4" and partially encrusts a 1" frag plug, as I've seen. Ridiculous. Just totally stupid, IMHO. Pathetic. Laughable. NON-SUSTAINABLE. As reefers, we should always make it our most important goal to take care of the animals we keep, and to take care of our fellow reefers...we are a "tribe", right? Not just walking dollar signs...Ok, I haven't even had my coffee yet and I'm all worked up, LOL.

Bottom line- it's an exciting new time and empowering marketplace. I hope we as a community manage our "power" in constructive, positive way that grows the hobby, not just the pocketbooks of some greedy, impatient people. Collect, propagate and sell rare, cool corals, but do it in a way that keeps the corals alive, healthy, and in the hobby for decades to come- along with the hobbyists who purchase it. -Scott

 

[Blue Lip]

I sell frags sometimes on craigslist & they are large. I hate tiny frags!

 

[nervousmonkey]

Great points and take on this...Let's face it- the market has changed- is continuing to change- I love that...I think evolution of the coral market is a good thing.

Bottom line- it's an exciting new time and empowering marketplace. I hope we as a community manage our "power" in constructive, positive way that grows the hobby, not just the pocketbooks of some greedy, impatient people. Collect, propagate and sell rare, cool corals, but do it in a way that keeps the corals alive, healthy, and in the hobby for decades to come- along with the hobbyists who purchase it. -Scott

Great point Scott. It's up to us to manage the change that's occurring. My personal opinion is that when its all said and done the days of the popup Facebook coral sellers/eBay sellers will run its course. Even new reefers will get tired of paying ridiculous amounts for a coral when they can open an app like Unique Corals and find the same coral that has been taken care of, is bigger, more colorful and cooler for a normal price. The same thing has happened in other industries and the days of the garage front online stores either get regulated out of business or the businesses in the industry run them out of business (higher cash flow always keeps a business running). True business principles and well managed businesses almost always make it through these kinds of changes. My $0.02.

 

[that Reef Guy]

Having been out of the "scene" for a while it was a bit of a shock to see shroom frags going for hundreds of dollars. Our local frag "swap" is coming up in a few months and I really hope it is not filled with only rare micro frags.

It won't be.

This appears to be a Facebook Only thing.

I go to all the Swaps in Michigan and Ohio.

Nothing has changed.

Don't worry.

 

[that Reef Guy]

Bizzare, actually. Nothing surprises me nowadays...But like I said, it's not like all reefers selling and trading on FB are "bad" or doing something nefarious- it's just that FB has become the latest bastion of coral absurdity...I just don't understand the phenomenon behind the crazy pricing and microsizing...As so many have pointed out already, if someone gets a thrill out of paying too much for too little, it's all cool...I guess...

Anybody have any Links to these Facebook Auctions?

I have heard about them but have never seen them.

 

[seasaltedinsrq]

I am totally with out words. Everything I have read has been truth, sad but true. The days of getting an encrusted frag are pretty much gone. I love the hobby, and love the pieces I acquire. Not for the name nor the price. I remember ALL the names of my pieces, they are all "COOL". I will stop babbling now.

 

[tnyr5]

"Are we really THIS pathetic?"

Yes. Yes we are.


"Do we as hobbyists have such collective greed and desire to make a fast buck that we simply snip the very tip off of a "high end" (don't get me started here on that definition/topic...) Acro or whatever and offer that as a..."frag.""

Yup.

 

[tnyr5]

Also, the point of the booger-sized frag is to keep you from being able to grow it out and become their competition.

 

[that Reef Guy]

I am totally with out words. Everything I have read has been truth, sad but true. The days of getting an encrusted frag are pretty much gone. I love the hobby, and love the pieces I acquire. Not for the name nor the price. I remember ALL the names of my pieces, they are all "COOL". I will stop babbling now.

I do not know how it is Online (Sites, eBay, or Facebook) since I do not order online but I still get a lot of Encrusting Frags at Frag Swaps so I disagree with this statement.

Just go to Frag Swaps.

I mean you get to see the Coral before you buy it so you know what you are getting and you do not have to pay shipping.

 

[southernreefer]

I couldn't agree more! Once more, trickery seems to have become the name of the game these days. One finds themselves having to ask, "what size crate is used, is that 5 inches or 5 centimeters, etc" I personally cannot stand the micro frags, nor I am I a huge fans of frags large or otherwise, and I agree with the earlier post that they simply get lost in any relatively sizable tank. Nonetheless, that's not to say that there isn't a place for them in the hobby. But it certainly won't be in MY tank. Not to mention, the thought of buying 1 zoa polyp for $900 is baffling and makes my stomach hurt. I understand fragging, despite my disdain, but the frags seem to be getting smaller and smaller as their veritable "value" follows a steady incline. IMHO, this trend simply adds no really value to my tanks. I prefer colonies. And if that means that I cannot have the latest and greatest, then so be it. I know that my tank is still pretty awesome.

 

[NanaReefer]

This topic makes me both angry and sad. Reminds me why I scroll past the selling threads. [emoji850][emoji40]

 

[Jimbo]

Why is it that people are so hesitant to "call out" some of these less than reputable vendors? How many times do you see a post that goes like this: " I just purchased this frag on line and it looks nothing like the picture, I won't mention where I got it but......."

Wouldn't it be better to share this information so someone else doesn't get taken? I know there is the vendor feedback forum but that has its limitations and rules...

Why not mention where you got it? I know I find myself thinking I wish I knew who they were talking about and I can't be the only one. Sometimes they'll even mention they ordered from a reputable dealer or even a sponsor of the forum but not name it.

 

[uniquecorals]

Why is it that people are so hesitant to "call out" some of these less than reputable vendors? How many times do you see a post that goes like this: " I just purchased this frag on line and it looks nothing like the picture, I won't mention where I got it but......."

Wouldn't it be better to share this information so someone else doesn't get taken? I know there is the vendor feedback forum but that has its limitations and rules...

Why not mention where you got it? I know I find myself thinking I wish I knew who they were talking about and I can't be the only one. Sometimes they'll even mention they ordered from a reputable dealer or even a sponsor of the forum but not name it.

I think the real problem is that we're in a society that increasingly likes to litigate for everything, and there is a fine line between a "negative review" and what could be interpreted as libel...and many people don't want to cross that line for obvious reasons. The reality is that we need to draw attention to the overall practice as much, if not more- than we need to call out individuals engaging in things that are unethical (again- selling frags at inflated prices is not illegal or anything...or even "unethical", I suppose- I just find it a distasteful practice. Of course, deceptive photo editing and "bait and switch" tactics speak for themselves..but I digress...), because once these practices are brought "out into the light" and widely recognized by even the most novice reefer, those perpetrating these things will be painfully obvious and will either clean up their act or simply (and hopefully) disappear.

 

[uniquecorals]

I couldn't agree more! Once more, trickery seems to have become the name of the game these days. One finds themselves having to ask, "what size crate is used, is that 5 inches or 5 centimeters, etc" I personally cannot stand the micro frags, nor I am I a huge fans of frags large or otherwise, and I agree with the earlier post that they simply get lost in any relatively sizable tank. Nonetheless, that's not to say that there isn't a place for them in the hobby. But it certainly won't be in MY tank. Not to mention, the thought of buying 1 zoa polyp for $900 is baffling and makes my stomach hurt. I understand fragging, despite my disdain, but the frags seem to be getting smaller and smaller as their veritable "value" follows a steady incline. IMHO, this trend simply adds no really value to my tanks. I prefer colonies. And if that means that I cannot have the latest and greatest, then so be it. I know that my tank is still pretty awesome.

You hit it on the head...It's not for YOU. And that's what counts! Lots of us may feel this way, but it's up to the individual not to support such things.