2 part controlled dosing?

[Coolcasino]

So at the moment I am dosing 2 part via trident control dosing. This doesn't really dose one-to-one. Is it better to use a 2 part like red sea that isn't true 2 part or using a true 2 part like ESV is still ok?

 

[blaxsun]

The best is 3-part, ie: alkalinity, calcium and magnesium - but a lot of people either dose 2-part or just alkalinity and calcium (and add magnesium manually as needed).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So at the moment I am dosing 2 part via trident control dosing. This doesn't really dose one-to-one. Is it better to use a 2 part like red sea that isn't true 2 part or using a true 2 part like ESV is still ok?

why doesn’t it dose 1:1? Are you dosing based on calcium and alk measurements?

regardless, ESV is a good choice and Red Sea is not better.

 

[HuduVudu]

@Coolcasino be very careful dosing this way. Automated feedback is a very dangerous and can crash your tank if something goes awry. There are many failure points in this feedback loop and none are prone to simple resolution. Just understand what can go wrong and plan for the worse.

 

[Gtinnel]

@Coolcasino be very careful dosing this way. Automated feedback is a very dangerous and can crash your tank if something goes awry. There are many failure points in this feedback loop and none are prone to simple resolution. Just understand what can go wrong and plan for the worse.

If referring specifically to controlled dosing using the trident there are failsafes built in. You set up a base dose and then set it to only allow a certain percentage above or below that value to be dosed. You also set thresholds where if the cal/alk readings are above or below certain values it will default to your base dose.

 

[HuduVudu]

If referring specifically to controlled dosing using the trident there are failsafes built in. You set up a base dose and then set it to only allow a certain percentage above or below that value to be dosed. You also set thresholds where if the cal/alk readings are above or below certain values it will default to your base dose.

There are always failsafes, and when everything goes sideways you find out how quickly that you were lulled into a false sense of security with them.

I used to do automation for a living. Reefs aren't the only place that this is at play. A good engineer learns to deal with this, and the best way is to use it VERY judiciously. For example when plumbing a sump, I NEVER use check valves. This involves a bit of extra engineering, but this eliminates a lot of possibilities for failure. Reducing failure vectors is paramount, particularly with the failures that a reef tank can produce.

I used to think that everything would be good when I first started automation. Then I saw some of the crazy failures that came up. If it can go wrong it will go wrong trust me in this.

With reef automation it is best just to not do it and insert yourself into the process so that problems can be stopped at you. This gives you the ability to ease up on maintenance but at the same time keep things as safe as you can.

So if you are using a Trident then use the information to make manual adjustments to your doser if needed. In this configuration you give up full automation but you are ultimately checking in to see how things are trending. Probe drift and reagent drift is real. Watching directly the values can assure that things don't get out of wack. As I am sure you are well aware when things get out of wack on a reef tank it is not very easy to get them back, and something in your tank will usually be causilty of your mistake.

FWIW

 

[Coolcasino]

why doesn’t it dose 1:1? Are you dosing based on calcium and alk measurements

Because I'm using fusion and you advised it's not a good 2 part and is not really 1.1 ratio.

 

[Coolcasino]

@Coolcasino be very careful dosing this way. Automated feedback is a very dangerous and can crash your tank if something goes awry. There are many failure points in this feedback loop and none are prone to simple resolution. Just understand what can go wrong and plan for the worse.

Well trust me I have read all the horror stories myself and I would hate for something like this to happen to me. I think I have fail safe after fail safe after fail safe and backup and I still sometimes don't think it's enough.

 

[Coolcasino]

If referring specifically to controlled dosing using the trident there are failsafes built in. You set up a base dose and then set it to only allow a certain percentage above or below that value to be dosed. You also set thresholds where if the cal/alk readings are above or below certain values it will default to your base dose.

Yep that's exactly how I have it. But I've always read that two parts should be dosed equally. And since the trident doses depending on its tests results I'm pretty sure it's never equal.

 

[Gtinnel]

Yep that's exactly how I have it. But I've always read that two parts should be dosed equally. And since the trident doses depending on its tests results I'm pretty sure it's never equal.

Mine is usually close to the same but it won’t be exactly the same. As long as it keeps alk/cal at the levels I want then I don’t care if they’re dosed at exactly the same rate.

 

[Coolcasino]

Mine is usually close to the same but it won’t be exactly the same. As long as it keeps alk/cal at the levels I want then I don’t care if they’re dosed at exactly the same rate.

Yes same here. I wouldn't care if it dosed randomly just that it's dosed 20 ml and 20 ml of each at the end of the day. Sometimes it dosed 18 or even 25.

 

[HuduVudu]

Mine is usually close to the same but it won’t be exactly the same. As long as it keeps alk/cal at the levels I want then I don’t care if they’re dosed at exactly the same rate.

You should because you are not just dosing Ca and Alk .. you are also dosing Na and Cl.

If you are water changing as you should then this will minimize the impact. Just be aware of what you are doing and you will be fine.

 

[Gtinnel]

Yes same here. I wouldn't care if it dosed randomly just that it's dosed 20 ml and 20 ml of each at the end of the day. Sometimes it dosed 18 or even 25.

Sorry I shouldn’t have said the same rate I meant I don’t care if they same amount is dosed each day. As long as my values are where I want them then that’s good for me. Here is mine for example

 

[Coolcasino]

Sorry I shouldn’t have said the same rate I meant I don’t care if they same amount is dosed each day. As long as my values are where I want them then that’s good for me. Here is mine for example

This is what I mean. You see how the trident has dosed more alk than cal? Would dosing ESV be ok as ESV is designed to a 1:1 ratio. Or because the trident doses this way would it be best to use a 2 part that isn't designed to be 1:1?

 

[Gtinnel]

This is what I mean. You see how the trident has dosed more alk than cal? Would dosing ESV be ok as ESV is designed to a 1:1 ratio. Or because the trident doses this way would it be best to use a 2 part that isn't designed to be 1:1?

I have no clue, I use one of Randy’s diy recipes which is a 1:1 ratio. If one part was being dosed at a much different amount than the other I’d be concerned but IMO small differences are not an issue.

 

[Coolcasino]

Ah ok. So it should be fine then. Thanks!

 

[Gtinnel]

Actually I don’t think it would matter, because even if you use solutions that don’t get dosed equally they still have a ratio that they were supposed to be dosed at to replenish the correct amount of alkalinity and calcium and you likely won’t be dosing them at exactly that ratio either.

This is just my guess though.

 

[Coolcasino]

Kinda makes sence. I was thinking more along the lines that if it was designed for 1:1 that it wouldn't be as effective somehow.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Kinda makes sence. I was thinking more along the lines that if it was designed for 1:1 that it wouldn't be as effective somehow.

There are two reasons to dose 1:1, but dosing somewhat off 1:1 is perfectly OK.

1. Dosing 1:1 based on alk measurements is often best, because alk changes faster. Changing calcium dosing frequently based on measurement often just sets up a roller coaster of rising and falling calcium, while infrequent measurements and changes eliminates that.

2. In a complete two part like ESV, dosing1:1 ensures that the residual ions that remain (e.g., potassium, sulfate, etc) stay matching a natural ratio, whereas if you constantly deliver off 1:1, that won't happen. It's still better than dosing just baking soda and calcium chloride, but is not as perfect.

 

[Coolcasino]

Excellent! So I will change the DOS so that CAL dosing is based on ALK readings. Thank you Randy!