2-Part vs Separate Additives (Seachem Reef Builder/Advantage)

[tutmatt3]

Hey Guys,

So I've been using these products:
Reef Builder - http://www.seachem.com/reef-builder.php
Reef Advantage Calcium - http://www.seachem.com/reef-adv-calcium.php

I mixed them with RODI & determined how much ML of my forumla to dose daily.

This whole time I've heard the phrase '2-part', I just thought "yeah calcium and alkalinity, the 2 parts of the equation", didn't know it meant a 2-part system.

I've finally determined my tanks usage, ~.25dkh a day (everything is a small frag atm).
I also found an article stating that for every 2.8dkh used, roughly 20ppm of calcium are used, and calculated how much calcium to dose daily.

I've been dosing the Alk for the past 2 weeks, and recently started 2 days ago dosing almost 2ppm a day of calcium. The thing is, the 2nd day after dosing calcium, about 6+ Acros showed tissue recession on the base. Tank isn't having swings, and these were dosed at separate times of day, but could it be something w/ the products themselves - as they are not part of a specific '2-part' system?

Any advice on what products to switch to? Sorry, this whole 2-part thing is new to me.

Thanks!

PH 8.1
DKH 8.0 (hanna dkh)
Phos .04 (hanna phosphorous)
calcium 380-400 (api and salifert)
ammonia / nitrite - 0
nitrate - ~5 (dosed with potassium nitrate to raise it)
potassium - 380
iodine - total ~.06
temp 76.5-77.5

Every other night - 3ml oyster feast
Every day - 2ml phols xtra

DKH was dosed via my own ratio of rodi/tsp of reef builder - 15ml of the mix in the AM, and 15ml @ night (30ml = .24 dkh)
Calcium was dosed mid-day 30ml (~1.75ppm)

Thanks!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

A two part system is a better way to go for a variety of reasons, but there's nothing in the appropriate use of those products you mention that would cause tissue recession.

How long have you been dosing nitrate?

 

[tutmatt3]

Nitrate I dosed 1.5 months ago, about 1ppm per day until I brought it up to 5, then I stopped.
http://nilocg.com/potassium-nitrate-kno3-1lb/
Then after a few 20% WC's, I dosed from 2.5 back to 5 about a month ago, and that was it. Haven't dosed since.

The only thing I did differently in the past week was dose calcium the day of the issue, and 2 days prior I dosed a very small amount of potassium (about 5ppm per day, for 2x days total)

And lastly the only other thing I did (which was not different than in the past), was rinse my HOB carbon filters with pressurized tap to rid of the gunk, then shook them for a good bit in a bucket of tank-water from a WC.
I've been rinsing my HOB filters for a few months now - but I've also had issues with stn in the past , which I'm still trying to determine the culprit. Usually on newly acquired pieces, this was the first time that it happened to frags which have been in the tank for a good few months, and well encrusted on the rocks.
Usually happens on tips down when other pieces went, this was the first time observing from the base - both on my rocks & on frags on the racks.

Equipment list:
55gal w/ 40lb dry rock, 60lb carib sea hawaiin black sand
2x HOB filters w/ bacteria plates & stock carbon filters changed once a month
2x current usa eflux wave makers, and 1x jeabeo wp-25
200w heater
inkbird temp controller set to 25.0C w /.3C +- for heating/cooling controlls
Cheap walmart fan to cool the tank
tunzee ato
2x euphotica chinese black boxes
1x 36" coral+ api bulb
cheap ebay skimmer, pulls out a good amount of gunk
grounding probe
(no sump)

Feeding habbits:
mysis & brine frozen - soaked w/ selcon. ~ .5cube each daily - slow feeding w/ pumps off
new life spectrum pellets, about 10 total
oyster feast every other night, 3ml

------------------------------------
Any specific recommendations on a brand/DIY system for 2part?
Is there any specific switching method I need to do since I was using these products? Or just begin dosing the new system & monitor akl/calcium in the first weeks?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You can use my recipe in a DIY, by getting materials at a place like BRS or DR Foster and Smith, or you can buy a commercial two part such as B-ionic. All work fine.

I can't tell why you had issues.

 

[tutmatt3]

You can use my recipe in a DIY, by getting materials at a place like BRS or DR Foster and Smith, or you can buy a commercial two part such as B-ionic. All work fine.

I can't tell why you had issues.

Copy that, thanks!
Any advantages to DIY vs commercial? I assume cost & time consumption being the main factors?

I'll have to give the full article a read, but I assume either Recipe #1 or #2 here would be the right ones to look into?
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/

 

[tutmatt3]

Also, would it be a good idea to hold on to this seachem magnesium for when I need to bring that up?

http://www.seachem.com/reef-adv-magnesium.php

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Cost is the only reason to DIY.

Aside from a one time correction to start (if needed), a two part handles the magnesium, and better than a separate additive since they work together to ensure a proper balance of other ions such as chloride and sulfate.

 

[tutmatt3]

Cost is the only reason to DIY.

Aside from a one time correction to start (if needed), a two part handles the magnesium, and better than a separate additive since they work together to ensure a proper balance of other ions such as chloride and sulfate.

Alrighty, sounds good! I'll begin with B-ionic from my local LFS to get things started, and once those bottles deplete, will move onto one of the DIY methods outlined.

Thanks Randy!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sounds great.

Good luck!

 

[tutmatt3]

Sounds great.

Good luck!

Thanks! on a last question - how big a water change should I make prior to using the new system?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks! on a last question - how big a water change should I make prior to using the new system?

Nothing special. Whatever your normal routine is, stick to it.

 

[tutmatt3]

Thanks! After a few days of the TN not getting worse, I tried to add calcium again, and low & behold same thing, TN got worse. Who knows, maybe I have a bad batch.
Did a 20%, then next day a 10%, just to help clear out any issues w/ supplements.

I dosed B-Ionic @ night, 12.5ml each.
Alk went from 8.2 last night ot 8.7 this morning (hanna)
Ca went from ~380-385 to ~395 (salifert)

Based off how the numbers adjusted, is it best I hold this current dose & see where it takes me, or adjust them higher / lower?
Shall I dose daily?
Looking to get CA in the ~420 range, and alk in the mid 8s

 

[Mindi]

Have been using Randy 2 part recipe 1 for years and swear by it. Virtually zero cost, ingredients so cheap. Good dosing pump makes all the difference.

 

[tutmatt3]

Have been using Randy 2 part recipe 1 for years and swear by it. Virtually zero cost, ingredients so cheap. Good dosing pump makes all the difference.

Where do you buy your material from? Looks like it's not common around here to find the calcium at three home stores.

Any recommendation guys on how to boost calcium properly using this method?

 

[Mindi]

Well I am in Australia so my data is no use to you, but you need standard food grade Sodium Bicarbonate ( Carb Soda) from any supermarket, ($2 kilo here) and Calcium Chloride (Pool Hardener/Spa Hardener) from any pool shop ($12 kilo) . Just read the recipe instructions, and take note to check whether the Calcium Chloride you get is Anhydrous or not...if it is (from memory) you reduce the amount by 20%. This two part system keeps the Calcium and Alkalinity values in balance. I have a net water volume of 520 litres and dose only 40 mls of each daily to maintain 3.7 meql and 430 ppm...give or take a little. I don't have a high coral load. I don't know about "boosting" calcium... you want them in their correct balance which dosing equal quantities of Randy's recipe 1 will give you if mixed correctly. Just use the dosing calculator to see what you need to dose as a one off adjustment.

 

[tutmatt3]

Understood. I haven't boosted calcium solo just yet since I recall @Randy Holmes-Farley recommending against it.

Day 1 - My first day 15ml dose took me from 8.2 to 8.7dkh(hanna), and calcium to 385ish (salifert)
Day 3 (well, 36x hours later)- Waited a day, and reduced dose to 10ml. Took me from 8.5dkh-8.9, and calcium 395ish

My ideal would be alk 8.5-9, and calcium ~420 (these numbers look good?), but I don't want to cause an imbalance.

Since I use instant oceans, to obtain those numbers I would need to raise my calcium in WC water prior to changing, correct?
Tested my IO right now in a bucket @ 1.026, gave me calcium of 375

My other thought was maybe combining the 2 instant ocean salts? Maybe 2x cups IO & .5 cup Reef Crystals for a 5gallon bucket. (I have both)
This would obviously give me slightly higher calcium than IO, and would save me from having to specifically dosing calcium in WC water.

-----

If I understand this 2part system correctly, I should aim to have my tank @ ~ the same numbers of water change water, correct?
And once I determine the proper doseage, it should keep me at a steady # each day, both dkh & alk. If so, then maybe the instant oceans/reef crystals mix is something to consider.

Love any feedback!

 

[tutmatt3]

Okay, 1 more possible solution instead of the Instant Oceans/ Reef Crystals mix. Love to hear input
If I bring up calcium w/ part 2 of my B-Ionic to 420ppm, & if indeed instant oceans mixes up @ 400ppm - then anytime I do a 10% water change:
Tank 420(90%=378) + WC 400(10%=40) Puts the tank @ 418

Therefore - it would allow me over 20x 10% water changes before I reach 400 again (given I don't raise WC water)
Then I can raise the tank back to 420

Any one of these options more preferable over the other? or am i overthinking this & just leave the tank @ the ~400 it's at now.
I would prefer to have slightly higher in case anything goes out of wack for whatever reason

 

[tutmatt3]

Alright, one more question here.

So currently using the B-Ionic (probably go DIY after these bottles are complete)
I'm raising my CA slightly higher than where it's at.

Initially tank was at 8.2dkh, ~380ppm cal
Equal doses got me up to 8.7/~395

I'm dosing a bit of calcium solo to bring it up to 420. So far 90ml later (separated into 3x doses) has given me ~410. Great!

I decided to test magnesium after all this (didn't test before, sorry), and levels were at 1260. Checked twice w/ salifert.

Now... I have the seachem reef advantage MAG earlier on hand, but as mentioned - extremely cautious to use any more of their products after my previous incidents.
These are the ingredients listed on the analysis:
http://www.seachem.com/reef-adv-magnesium.php

Do you guys recommend:
A) Ignore & leave mag alone - as water changes / B-ionic should help raise it when dosed equally again? (instant oceans salt)
B) Use this product slowly to raise it to ~1300
C) Use a different product, such as DIY to bring it up.

Salinity is @ 1.026

Sorry for so many questions @Randy Holmes-Farley !! Rather be patient & wait for the community response rather than try things here & there based off chemistry I don't know
I would assume the 1-time correction should be the only time needed to dose MG , but love your input!

 

[Mindi]

Be patient..(if only you knew how hypocritical that is coming from me) but give your dosing actions plenty of time to take effect and re-stabilise. I worry a little about Mg as I never need to add it as I am supposed to with Randy Recipe 1...I figure my 10% weekly water changes (NSW) cover it but my readings are usually 1350-1400 approx so I never actually supplement it. Remember the only reason to do Randy DIY is cost....and I am DIY person so I quite enjoy doing it. You seem unhappy about Seachem but to be honest they are my general GoTo moderately priced source when I need to buy something.

 

[tutmatt3]

Be patient..(if only you knew how hypocritical that is coming from me) but give your dosing actions plenty of time to take effect and re-stabilise. I worry a little about Mg as I never need to add it as I am supposed to with Randy Recipe 1...I figure my 10% weekly water changes (NSW) cover it but my readings are usually 1350-1400 approx so I never actually supplement it. Remember the only reason to do Randy DIY is cost....and I am DIY person so I quite enjoy doing it. You seem unhappy about Seachem but to be honest they are my general GoTo moderately priced source when I need to buy something.

I hear ya, & I'm a DIY person myself. I went with B-Ionic first because I'd rather switch my previous supplements sooner rather than wait to DIY & get material

That's why I also came to ask about the MG prior to rushing into it. I know that 1260 is a bit on the low-end, but wanted advice on best to leave it as is & see how things result in a few weeks of dosing b-ionic, or replenish it & get it to levels I want it @, then continue dosing normal

Seachem wise - I actually enjoyed the Alk. It was fun to calculate & create my own mix of it + RODI to dose. I have yet to use the MG, but given I had issues on THE 2x occasions when using the calcium one, I fear the unknown.
Coincidence, bad batch, improper usage (don't think it this one), or maybe conflict item w/ my tank - who knows, but I won't be returning to the calcium supplement anytime soon.

I know MG act's as the REF between ALK/CA - which is why I inquired on how I should handle it @ the moment.
Thanks!