3/4” Return Lines causing changes in return pump flow?

[mfinn]

So based on this diagram I don’t put the U bend on the full siphon drain just the second non emergency drain? This is the first tank I’ve had that has 3 drains so I thought I had it figured out.

My 3 drain system is setup exactly like the diagram and it is silent.

 

[Freenow54]

I think there’s some misinformation and misunderstanding in this thread, and hopefully this input will help everyone involved.

Yup that is an old diagram. Probably before DC pumps I would Guess . No valves on mine , and flow is perfect

 

[Jamie814]

Yup that is an old diagram. Probably before DC pumps I would Guess . No valves on mine , and flow is perfect

What does an AC or controlable DC pump have to do with the bean overflow design?

We're not talking about throttling the return line with a valve.

 

[Freenow54]

What does an AC or controlable DC pump have to do with the bean overflow design?

We're not talking about throttling the return line with a valve.

I will try to explain to You . Water flow going in should equal water flow going out if set properly. No valve needed on return line talked about

 

[Jamie814]

Yup that is an old diagram.

That diagram remains the standard for the safest, quietest, most adaptable, and most efficient overflow setup.

Show me what your modern overflow design looks like that’s supposed to be better.

 

[Jamie814]

No valve needed on return line talked about

Please stop, that is a drain line not a return line. Your adding confusion to this thread that is not needed.

The type of return pump used has nothing to do with the overflow design.

Maybe @BeanAnimal can explain it better to you than I can.

 

[mfinn]

I will try to explain to You . Water flow going in should equal water flow going out if set properly. No valve needed on return line talked about

I looked back and a valve on the return line isn't the issue here. I'm not even sure where it fits.

I will say that is the past before dc pumps came out, a valve on the return line was sometimes needed.
Many buy pumps that are bigger than really needed. It happens.
Some start out thinking they need X amount of flow, and then realize that a slower flow helps with noise issues.
A valve helps.
Not everybody picks the absolute perfect pump the first time.

 

[Freenow54]

Please stop, that is a drain line not a return line. Your adding confusion to this thread that is not needed.

The type of return pump used has nothing to do with the overflow design.

Maybe @BeanAnimal can explain it better to you than I can.

Last try but will bow out . I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT A VALVE ON THE RETURN LINE> My only reason to reply was because to me a valve on the drain encourages blockage . A DC pump with the flow set correctly solves flow issues without the need for a valve on the drain. Just 2 other drains for the Bean style drain

 

[BeanAnimal]

So based on this diagram I don’t put the U bend on the full siphon drain just the second non emergency drain? This is the first tank I’ve had that has 3 drains so I thought I had it figured out.

It depends on the water level above the full siphon and the flow rate. If it creates a vortex and sucks air, then it will flow less water. This will allow the water level to rise and more will flow down the open channel. but the vortex may eventually break. All of this causes instability. The system oscillates between states.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Last try but will bow out . I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT A VALVE ON THE RETURN LINE> My only reason to reply was because to me a valve on the drain encourages blockage . A DC pump with the flow set correctly solves flow issues without the need for a valve on the drain. Just 2 other drains for the Bean style drain

Let's clear this up:

There is no "bean style" drain, there is a BeanAnimal overflow or there isn't. My design has several very specific elements that interact to create stability, safety and silence.

In short and among other things:
1 - a controlled siphon (valved for adjustability)
2 - an open channel drain that allows air in, but becomes a siphon in an emergency. This drain takes the balance of the flow when the valve on the siphon is set properly. This allows the system to be self adjusting over a reasonable bandwidth of flow changes.
3 - an emergency dry standpipe that becomes a final stand emergency siphon if the other two fully fail.

 

[Freenow54]

Let's clear this up:

There is no "bean style" drain, there is a BeanAnimal overflow or there isn't. My design has several very specific elements that interact to create stability, safety and silence.

In short and among other things:
1 - a controlled siphon (valved for adjustability)
2 - an open channel drain that allows air in, but becomes a siphon in an emergency. This drain takes the balance of the flow when the valve on the siphon is set properly. This allows the system to be self adjusting over a reasonable bandwidth of flow changes.
3 - an emergency dry standpipe that becomes a final stand emergency siphon if the other two fully fail.

So my argument was that a properly adjusted DC pump would eliminate the need for a valve, and supply constant flow volume . Not correct Thinking ?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Yup that is an old diagram. Probably before DC pumps I would Guess . No valves on mine , and flow is perfect

Old is not relevant.

Any centrifugal pump's output can be controlled by valving it back. You don't need a DC pump to adjust overall pump output. A variable speed pump (a "DC pump") makes the output easily controllable vs a manual valve. None of that has nothing to do with my overflow design.

While you may be able to adjust system flow to achieve balance and silence for a given drain setup, that is not the same thing as what my overflow does. The overflow provides the balance, safety (and silence) for a large range of outputs. You don't need to adjust pump flow to make it work. You can adjust pump flow if you want.


Let's make an analogy:
You are basically saying "Slow the train down so it doesn't make noise or jump the tracks."

I took the approach "Let's make the track better so that you can safely and quietly run at any speed you want."

 

[BeanAnimal]

So my argument was that a properly adjusted DC pump would eliminate the need for a valve, and supply constant flow volume . Not correct Thinking ?

Not correct in context. Yes, broadly throttling a pump may achieve balance in a given system, but at the cost of flow. It also does not add any self adjustability.

Also as noted, this can be done with a valve in front of an AC pump. Throttling is not unique to DC pump, it is just easier to adjust.

See the train analogy above.

 

[Freenow54]

Old is not relevant.

Any centrifugal pump's output can be controlled by valving it back. You don't need a DC pump to adjust overall pump output. A variable speed pump (a "DC pump") makes the output easily controllable vs a manual valve. None of that has nothing to do with my overflow design.

While you may be able to adjust system flow to achieve balance and silence for a given drain setup, that is not the same thing as what my overflow does. The overflow provides the balance, safety (and silence) for a large range of outputs. You don't need to adjust pump flow to make it work. You can adjust pump flow if you want.


Let's make an analogy:
You are basically saying "Slow the train down so it doesn't make noise or jump the tracks."

I took the approach "Let's make the track better so that you can safely and quietly run at any speed you want."

Not correct in context. Yes, broadly throttling a pump may achieve balance in a given system, but at the cost of flow. It also does not add any self adjustability.

Also as noted, this can be done with a valve in front of an AC pump. Throttling is not unique to DC pump, it is just easier to adjust.

See the train analogy above.

Please stop, that is a drain line not a return line. Your adding confusion to this thread that is not needed.

The type of return pump used has nothing to do with the overflow design.

Maybe @BeanAnimal can explain it better to you than I can.

Although I was not talking about a valve on the return line . I don't know where the confusion was surrounding that. I was wrong about the need for a valve on the main drain. I have a Herbie style set up on my Aqueon . I bought it before I knew of different types of drains . It as you know is 2 pipe . one return . One Drain. I have a valve on it that I never used. It is there for isolation. I can control my flow rate with my pump alone , which is what I went on . Bean Animal set me straight about his drain design. I know his experience . Unfortunately I don't know yours . Something that is lacking on this site. Anything I said was from experience of my own. I did not mean to cause issues. The reason for this site is to give the person different ways of looking at an issue . Not for one person to expect that they should accept their viewpoint as the absolute truth. You learned from others as we all did. So no disrespect its my opinion that I am stating . I did not ever insult you or mean the issue to get muddied . I can except that I was wrong by Bean Animal . If you notice I wanted him to join in early on

 

[BeanAnimal]

One Drain. I have a valve on it that I never used. It is there for isolation. I can control my flow rate with my pump alone , which is what I went on

You have inadvertently hit on one reason that I actually designed my overflow. Durso's, open standpipes, straight strainers in bulkheads, Stockman's and other methods worked sometimes. Their success depends on many variables falling into place, and when they don't you get noise, oscillation, maintenance issues, or even floods.

Your setup happens to be one where your flow rate, pipe sizing and plumbing happens to be matched well enough to be quiet and trouble free without using a valve on either end (flow or return) to keep things balanced