Alk and Cal consumption

[homer1475]

Your just not understanding the process. He has explained it many times over.

Thus, if nitrate is steady at any level, the biological processes related to it are neither adding nor consuming alkalinity.

What part of this don't you understand?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No, you haven't answered it.

Please tell me how a tank with organisms producing ammonia aren't producing nitrate.

Maybe that nitrate is going to another dimension?

I don't understand.

A tank can produce ammonia and then other organisms use it all (some folks even dose ammonia), but I never claimed any specific tank is not producing nitrate.

What I am saying is that if nitrate is steady at ANY level, there is no ongoing alk consumption or production that is caused by the nitrogen cycle.

 

[arking_mark]

I don't understand.

A tank can produce ammonia and then other organisms use it all (some folks even dose ammonia), but I never claimed any specific tank is not producing nitrate.

What I am saying is that if nitrate is steady at ANY level, there is no ongoing alk consumption or production that is caused by the nitrogen cycle.

Ammonia to nitrate --> consumes Alk

Further along the nitrogen cycle

Consuming nitrate --> releases Alk

Net change in Alk = 0

 

[arking_mark]

Ammonia to nitrate --> consumes Alk

Further along the nitrogen cycle

Consuming nitrate --> releases Alk

Net change in Alk = 0

To be clear, if your tank has rising nitrates then you will see Alk consumption without the corresponding Ca consumption.

If your tank has dropping nitrates the you will see Alk rising without corresponding Ca rising.

If your nitrates are steady, no net changes.

 

[blasterman]

I don't understand.

A tank can produce ammonia and then other organisms use it all (some folks even dose ammonia), but I never claimed any specific tank is not producing nitrate.

What I am saying is that if nitrate is steady at ANY level, there is no ongoing alk consumption or production that is caused by the nitrogen cycle.

You just did....many times. And you are contradicting yourself.

You keep claiming if nitrate is "steady" nothing is producing it....and I'm claiming that's not possible. What I'm claiming is nitrate is always being produced because it's biologically impossible to fixate ammonia and not produce nitrate.

Comprehend?

The reason you claim and other reefers claim it's not rising is because it's being consumed as fast as it's being produced. Biologic equilibrium at play when nitrate levels get high enough.

Are we square on that?

 

[arking_mark]

You just did....many times. And you are contradicting yourself.

You keep claiming if nitrate is "steady" nothing is producing it....and I'm claiming that's not possible. What I'm claiming is nitrate is always being produced because it's biologically impossible to fixate ammonia and not produce nitrate.

Comprehend?

The reason you claim and other reefers claim it's not rising is because it's being consumed as fast as it's being produced. Biologic equilibrium at play when nitrate levels get high enough.

Are we square on that?

Are you saying that consuming the nitrates doesn't release Alk back to the aquarium?

 

[blasterman]

To be clear, if your tank has rising nitrates then you will see Alk consumption without the corresponding Ca consumption.

If your tank has dropping nitrates the you will see Alk rising without corresponding Ca rising.

If your nitrates are steady, no net changes.

Are you being remedial to be a jerk, or drinking too much AFR with vodka?

If bacteria are consuming ammonia and hence producing nitrite which gets converted to nitrate then there's alk consumption.

What you are claiming is because your nitrate level in your tank reads *X* and doesn't seem to move, well then nitrate must longer be being produced....and weight holds us down and not gravity.

Are you saying that consuming the nitrates doesn't release Alk back to the aquarium?

Christ...learn to read.

What you are claiming is because you see nitrate at a level of *X* on your tank according to your test kit you think it's because nitrate is no longer is being produced. Are you people that dense? Yet you claim are calcium kits aren't accurate.

What I'm trying to say is nitrate is always ****** being produced.....your test kit can't see it. You and Randy keep implying nitrate production stops...and that's not biological possible. Nitrate is always being produced if ammonia is being produced at the front end. Got it? Ask a dang biologist.

If nitrate is being produced alk is being consumed, got it? The reason nitrate doesn't climb to infinity is because biological processes in the tank can keep up with the nitrate fixation as fast as it's being produced. The levels of nitrate simply have to get high enough to hit this equilibrium.

Nitrate is always being produced - get over it. If nitrate is always being produced alk is always being consumed. This is how alk levels can plummit in tanks while calcium levels when dosed go through the roof.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You just did....many times. And you are contradicting yourself.

You keep claiming if nitrate is "steady" nothing is producing it....and I'm claiming that's not possible. What I'm claiming is nitrate is always being produced because it's biologically impossible to fixate ammonia and not produce nitrate.

Comprehend?

The reason you claim and other reefers claim it's not rising is because it's being consumed as fast as it's being produced. Biologic equilibrium at play when nitrate levels get high enough.

Are we square on that?

When nitrate is steady, it is being produced and consumed at the same rate.

Since those two processes exactly offset each other in alkalinity effects, and are happen at the same rate, there cannot be an effect on alkalinity from that set of processes.

 

[arking_mark]

Maybe a concrete example will help here.

My tank is steady at 3-5ppm NO3.

Let's assume that my feeding, fish, and other biological processes produce ammonia that get converted to 50ppm of NO3 per day. So the tank would see a consumption of 2.3 dKH.

At the same time, other biological processes are consuming 50ppm of NO3. So the tank would see an addion of 2.3 dKH.

Net impact to Alk = 0 (2.3dKH - 2.3dKH)

 

[homer1475]

And what about when the biological process turns nitrate into nitrogen gas? When this happens the ALK is being released back into the water.

Hence if your nitrate is steady, ALK consumption from biological process is moot.

 

[blasterman]

Your just not understanding the process. He has explained it many times over.



What part of this don't you understand?

Maybe a concrete example will help here.

My tank is steady at 3-5ppm NO3.

Let's assume that my feeding, fish, and other biological processes produce ammonia that get converted to 50ppm of NO3 per day. So the tank would see a consumption of 2.3 dKH.

At the same time, other biological processes are consuming 50ppm of NO3. So the tank would see an addion of 2.3 dKH.

Net impact to Alk = 0 (2.3dKH - 2.3dKH)

Those mythical other biological processes aren't releasing 2.3 dKH. They have already fixed out the carbonate and it's not available. Want to set to set up a bunch of tanks, add ammonia, and see where alk ultimately ends up? Put money on it?

Also, NO3 doesn't directly convert to nitrogen gas. This requires anoxic layers which cannot under any realistic scenario fixate nitrate to an equilibrum in a closed loop reef tank.

Also, side question here, but when we get the zillion or so "my calcium is through the roof and my alk is low" threads where are you to tell them they are just testing wrong?

 

[homer1475]

Randy just told you that it is released back. How is that so hard to understand?

For someone who's only been reefing a couple years, you sure do know it all.

 

[homer1475]

I've answered this many times.

Ammonia released by metabolism (fish, bacteria, whatever) and then converted to nitrate consumes 2.3 dKH per 50 ppm of nitrate produced

Nitrate consumed and used to produce tissue or ammonia or N2 gas releases 2.3 dKH of alkalinity for each 50 ppm of nitrate consumed.

Thus, if nitrate is steady at any level, the biological processes related to it are neither adding nor consuming alkalinity.

Here is your answer, how is this so hard to understand? Notice the bold?

 

[homer1475]

Not even sure why were arguing over known science?

 

[arking_mark]

Those mythical other biological processes aren't releasing 2.3 dKH. They have already fixed out the carbonate and it's not available. Want to set to set up a bunch of tanks, add ammonia, and see where alk ultimately ends up? Put money on it?

Also, NO3 doesn't directly convert to nitrogen gas. This requires anoxic layers which cannot under any realistic scenario fixate nitrate to an equilibrum in a closed loop reef tank.

Also, side question here, but when we get the zillion or so "my calcium is through the roof and my alk is low" threads where are you to tell them they are just testing wrong?

I'll defer to the reefing scientists on whether or not the NO3 is consumed in a reef aquarium.

As to anecdotal stories of high Ca and low Alk, I can provide several answers that has nothing to do with unbalanced consumption.

Using high high-parameter salt and dosing beyond your tanks consumption. In this case Ca or Alk goes beyond the super saturation level that can be sustained causing a precipitation event which will drop both Alk/Ca. This type of drop crushes you Alk while your Ca will still be high.

As already mentioned, rising Nitrates and continued dosing can also lead to Cal/Alk imbalance.

Inaccurate Alk/Ca measurements and dosing.

Etc...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Nitrification
NH3 + 2O2 --> NO3- + H+ + H2O
(the H+ on the right shows alk being depleted, 1 per nitrate)

Denitrification to N2
4NO3- + 5/6 C6H12O6 (glucose) + 4H2O --> 2 N2 + 7H2O + 4HCO3- + CO2
(the HCO3-on the right shows alk being added, 1 per nitrate)

Consumption to make tissue
122 CO2 + 122 H2O + 16 NO3- --> C106H260O106N16 + 138 O2 + 16 HCO3-
(the HCO3-on the right shows alk being added, 1 per nitrate)

If you want, you can add them together:

16 NH3 + 32 O2 + 122 CO2 --> 16H+ + 16 H2O + C106H260O106N16 + 138 O2 + 16 HCO3-

combining the H+ and the HCO3- we get:

16 NH3 + 32 O2 + 122 CO2 --> 16 H2O + C106H260O106N16 + 138 O2 + 16CO2
showing no impact on alkalinity from NH3 to tissue

 

[Dkeller_nc]

Those mythical other biological processes aren't releasing 2.3 dKH. They have already fixed out the carbonate and it's not available. Want to set to set up a bunch of tanks, add ammonia, and see where alk ultimately ends up? Put money on it?

Also, NO3 doesn't directly convert to nitrogen gas. This requires anoxic layers which cannot under any realistic scenario fixate nitrate to an equilibrum in a closed loop reef tank.

There are a couple of incorrect statements here. It is very true that if you set up a new tank, with new (dry) rock, new (dry) sand, and other equipment that has been out of the water for a long time, there's no significant nitrifying bacteria present. If you then add ammonia, the nitrosomonas (and others) that are always present in the environment will innoculate the tank, and start growing and consuming the ammonia that you've added. That absolutely will consume alkalinity, though whether you can measure the effect or not will depend on the amount of ammonia you've added and the precision of your alkalinity assay.

Later on, and presuming that you have significant porous rock and/or sand in the tank, nitrobacter bacteria will start to populate the anoxic zones in those substrates (there are always anoxic zones in any porous substance in an aqueous environment, presuming those substrates have individual units that are big enough to see). Those nitrobacter populations will definitely start consuming nitrate and yielding alkalinity back to the water, and nitrogen gas that escapes to the atmosphere.

The net behavior of these two bacterial populations is that at some point (and it may take many weeks of "maturing") is that the nitrate concentration will reach a steady state in the water, presuming that nitrogen is being added in the form of biological substances containing it (i.e., food). The aquarist will observe a net increase in nitrate concentration and a net decrease in alkalinity at first, and eventually, a net decrease in nitrate and a net increase in alkalinity.

Denitrification happens in every reef tank, again presuming that it has porous rock and sand. Whether or not it happens to a significant extent to stabilize nitrate concentrations at relatively low levels depends on many factors, including the availability of a carbon source. That, by the way, is one of the reasons that carbon dosing is effective at controlling nitrate in a reef tank.

 

[paintman]

"I'm smarter than you"
"No, I'm smarter than you"
"No no, no. I'm even much more smarter than you"
"O' yea, well no, no, no, no, no. I'm even much much more smarter than you because I say so"
"No, I'm even much more smarter than you because I tell myself soand so does everyone else"

Me...."Anybody know how to get my lawnmower started"?
Smart guys...."Whats a lawnmower"?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

"I'm smarter than you"
"No, I'm smarter than you"
"No no, no. I'm even much more smarter than you"
"O' yea, well no, no, no, no, no. I'm even much much more smarter than you because I say so"
"No, I'm even much more smarter than you because I tell myself soand so does everyone else"

Me...."Anybody know how to get my lawnmower started"?
Smart guys...."Whats a lawnmower"?

This is a forum for scientific discussion and debate.

Please do not mock those who are participating.

 

[rusgum]

"I'm smarter than you"
"No, I'm smarter than you"
"No no, no. I'm even much more smarter than you"
"O' yea, well no, no, no, no, no. I'm even much much more smarter than you because I say so"
"No, I'm even much more smarter than you because I tell myself soand so does everyone else"

Me...."Anybody know how to get my lawnmower started"?
Smart guys...."Whats a lawnmower"?

You had to put a smiley in your message to translate it into a joke . In another case, it is a challenge to all participants in the discussion, because everyone defends their point of view and experience, confirming their reefs.