Am I falling for the hype? Are the commercial carbon products actually different/better?

[BigTimeIssues]

I've been reading about the Tropic Marin carbon dosing products. And listening to him has made me want to try it. However before I do I want to make sure I give Aqua Forest and the others equal thought.

It seems Tropic Marin is the easiest system to find info on. Anyone have experience with any of the large brands?(or sources to how to use them?)

I bet lots have used vodka or vinegar, is it the same? Is one way more safe?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I can't give any specific advice, but am curious how old your tank is and why you're considering carbon dosing?

 

[bushdoc]

I've been reading about the Tropic Marin carbon dosing products. And listening to him has made me want to try it. However before I do I want to make sure I give Aqua Forest and the others equal thought.

It seems Tropic Marin is the easiest system to find info on. Anyone have experience with any of the large brands?(or sources to how to use them?)

I bet lots have used vodka or vinegar, is it the same? Is one way more safe?

I only have limited, but positive experience with vinegar dosing in one of my smaller 30 G tanks, where it definitely had positive effects on lowering Nitrates.In larger tank I would use vodka. I am firm believer of controlled studies and evidence based approach to reefing. There must be differences between brands or different mixtures. Below is a citation from article by Beuchat (Angel Cegarra):

"Two brands of organic carbon additives were used in the study Xepta NP out and Red Sea NO3 : PO4-X. After some weeks we got to the conclusion of Xepta being faster in producing the dinoflagellates regression. Xepta NP out is composed of methanol, toluene, glucose, and acetic acid, while Red Sea NO3 : PO4-X contains methanol, ethanol and acetic acid. In the 11 aquaria where this treatment has been applied, the dinoflagellates have receded significantly with either Xepta or Red Sea."

 

[Sean Clark]

You already know what it is. Why not make your own solution?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I've been reading about the Tropic Marin carbon dosing products. And listening to him has made me want to try it. However before I do I want to make sure I give Aqua Forest and the others equal thought.

It seems Tropic Marin is the easiest system to find info on. Anyone have experience with any of the large brands?(or sources to how to use them?)

I bet lots have used vodka or vinegar, is it the same? Is one way more safe?

Type "NoPox diy" in the search box... Lots of threads already discuss this and you'll probably find some good info there.

 

[BigTimeIssues]

I can't give any specific advice, but am curious how old your tank is and why you're considering carbon dosing?

Tank is 3 months old. I have some experience in reefing so not a complete beginner. But have no experience with carbon dosing.

My particular system had a huge spike of phosphates. I've since reduced it with gfo. Its still a little elevated but now I'm getting to a place to manage the nutrients, rather than eliminate. (Phosphurus is 50ppb, down from 200 2 weeks ago. Gfo worked better than I intended)

From what I read, the corals benefit from the carbon dosing thru an increase of specific bacteria that consume phosphate and Nitrate. The carbon source facilitates the growth.

Goals would be maintaining nutrient control while providing a source of food for the corals. I'm also wanting to learn more about it.

 

[BigTimeIssues]

You already know what it is. Why not make your own solution?

That may be where I end up. Wanted to gather more info.

 

[TheyGaveItToMe]

I only have limited, but positive experience with vinegar dosing in one of my smaller 30 G tanks, where it definitely had positive effects on lowering Nitrates.In larger tank I would use vodka. I am firm believer of controlled studies and evidence based approach to reefing. There must be differences between brands or different mixtures. Below is a citation from article by Beuchat (Angel Cegarra):

"Two brands of organic carbon additives were used in the study Xepta NP out and Red Sea NO3 : PO4-X. After some weeks we got to the conclusion of Xepta being faster in producing the dinoflagellates regression. Xepta NP out is composed of methanol, toluene, glucose, and acetic acid, while Red Sea NO3 : PO4-X contains methanol, ethanol and acetic acid. In the 11 aquaria where this treatment has been applied, the dinoflagellates have receded significantly with either Xepta or Red Sea."

No way would I advocate adding anything with toluene to a reef tank. Toluene is highly toxic, and banned in many countries. I'm quite shocked it is an ingredient in Xepta NP.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Tank is 3 months old. I have some experience in reefing so not a complete beginner. But have no experience with carbon dosing.

My particular system had a huge spike of phosphates. I've since reduced it with gfo. Its still a little elevated but now I'm getting to a place to manage the nutrients, rather than eliminate. (Phosphurus is 50ppb, down from 200 2 weeks ago. Gfo worked better than I intended)

From what I read, the corals benefit from the carbon dosing thru an increase of specific bacteria that consume phosphate and Nitrate. The carbon source facilitates the growth.

Goals would be maintaining nutrient control while providing a source of food for the corals. I'm also wanting to learn more about it.

Please take a breath… your tank is still maturing. Carbon dosing is not the first step for nutrient control and stability. Patience…

 

[HomebroodExotics]

Please take a breath… your tank is still maturing. Carbon dosing is not the first step for nutrient control and stability. Patience…

I disagree. I think carbon dosing is the first step towards stability.

 

[TheyGaveItToMe]

I disagree. I think carbon dosing is the first step towards stability.

Care to elaborate? In a 3 month old tank with next to no bio-load, what is there to stabilize? The first step to stability is letting the biome mature.

It for sure isn't jumping the gun, over testing, and constantly trying to tweak chemistry to maintain "perfect" parameters. Most new tanks the only thing required to maintain stability is a refractometer and a bucket.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

To use gfo and carbon on a tank this young is asking for issues later on.

There's nothing wrong with educating yourself on these processes but also understand what you're doing.

There's no stability in a 3 month old tank, and disrupting the balancing process especially N and P, will only make things harder down the road.

 

[Dan_P]

I've been reading about the Tropic Marin carbon dosing products. And listening to him has made me want to try it. However before I do I want to make sure I give Aqua Forest and the others equal thought.

It seems Tropic Marin is the easiest system to find info on. Anyone have experience with any of the large brands?(or sources to how to use them?)

I bet lots have used vodka or vinegar, is it the same? Is one way more safe?

The big companies like to make seemingly miraculous claims about their products. I would love to see what they would say about tap water.

Two things should make you hesitate when buying something to put into your aquarium: (1) lack of an ingredient list and (2) data on the effectiveness of the product. Number 2 stops you from buying anything in this hobby, so, you will have to rely on your skill to spot “snake oil” and here say on the internet. Good luck Number 1 should be followed a bit more rigorously. Use vinegar or vodka if the company does not specifically what is in their carbon dosing product.

 

[HomebroodExotics]

Care to elaborate? In a 3 month old tank with next to no bio-load, what is there to stabilize? The first step to stability is letting the biome mature.

If for sure isn't jumping the gun, over testing, and constantly trying to tweak chemistry to maintain "perfect" parameters. Most new tanks the only thing required to maintain stability is a refractometer and a bucket.

Sure carbon dosing provides a steady and consistent food for your bacteria and corals. This leads to stability.

 

[BigTimeIssues]

To use gfo and carbon on a tank this young is asking for issues later on.

There's nothing wrong with educating yourself on these processes but also understand what you're doing.

There's no stability in a 3 month old tank, and disrupting the balancing process especially N and P, will only make things harder down the road.

Would it be better to leave the phosphate and nitrates high? The gfo isn't staying, if I can help it. My thoughts was to get the levels down to a lower level to prevent issues in the future like having my substrate and rocks absorb all this phosphate. Now that its close to being in range, I can slack off the gfo and see how it reacts. The gfo in the reactor is very likely spent. Considering in my testing it came down pretty much every time I tested until the last few days where it has plateaued at around 50ppb.

The carbon dosing, from what I gathered, takes months to start properly. Starting at 1/4 dose and working up to full dose over a few months.

I do appreciate the responces!

 

[blaxsun]

As has been mentioned, 3 months is still relatively new for a tank. Regular water changes and filter cleaning/changes will provide most of your nutrient export, along with maintaining a balanced bio load and cleanup crew.

Most of us who have larger, established and mature reefs use these products sparingly, ie: when needed and not as a regular regiment. Just my $0.02.

 

[BigTimeIssues]

Care to elaborate? In a 3 month old tank with next to no bio-load, what is there to stabilize? The first step to stability is letting the biome mature.

If for sure isn't jumping the gun, over testing, and constantly trying to tweak chemistry to maintain "perfect" parameters. Most new tanks the only thing required to maintain stability is a refractometer and a bucket.

I'm curious, not argumentative, so please don't think I'm wanting to debate. I want to learn.. I want to ask what you consider over testing? Once a week is my goal, and once every 2 weeks seem to have been reality. The phos shot up at the 1.5 month mark. I tested it and since have tested it more frequently but only in an effort to get it down, not necessarily eliminate it. Also alkalinity recently started going down, as well as Calcium. This is with water changes too. I'm just curious if correcting those values, or at least nudging them back in line is not a good practice. I didn't even consider getting the 2 part chemicals out of my storage container until the alk was at 6.8. Last week it was 7.6. Calcium last week was 418 and this week is 404.

 

[TheyGaveItToMe]

I'm curious, not argumentative, so please don't think I'm wanting to debate. I want to learn.. I want to ask what you consider over testing? Once a week is my goal, and once every 2 weeks seem to have been reality. The phos shot up at the 1.5 month mark. I tested it and since have tested it more frequently but only in an effort to get it down, not necessarily eliminate it. Also alkalinity recently started going down, as well as Calcium. This is with water changes too. I'm just curious if correcting those values, or at least nudging them back in line is not a good practice. I didn't even consider getting the 2 part chemicals out of my storage container until the alk was at 6.8. Last week it was 7.6. Calcium last week was 418 and this week is 404.

If I did a water change, tested after the water change and got 418 Calcium. Then tested a week later and had 404 Calcium before weekly water change, I wouldn't even consider dosing. We are talking a consumption of 2 parts per million a day.
I personally test 2 weeks in a row, once every month, just to verify my dosing doesn't need to be changed. Your weekly consumption of Calcium and Alkalinity isn't going to change drastically over the course of a month, unless you add a ton of frags(and I mean a ton, not 3-4), a large clam, or whole colony.

7.6 is low Alkalinity for me, I would test my new saltwater just to make sure the problem isn't my RODI water or salt mix.

But, the real question you should ask yourself before you start adjusting or "nudging" your parameters is, how do your corals look? Do they have good extension? Do you see fresh growth? And, if the answer is yes; then don't chase a problem you don't have trying to hit a number.

 

[TheyGaveItToMe]

Sure carbon dosing provides a steady and consistent food for your bacteria and corals. This leads to stability.

Fish poop provides consistent food for your bacteria and corals. The purpose of carbon dosing is to increase heterotrophic bacteria, that will absorb Nitrates and Phosphates and then be removed by your skimmer. Not running a skimmer? Not going to help. Growing cheato? Carbon dosing is redundant.

A new tank isn't even close to a balanced stage.

And, plenty of amazing established tanks use absolutely no carbon dosing.

And, this is why I think your statement is wrong.

 

[HomebroodExotics]

Fish poop provides consistent food for your bacteria and corals. The purpose of carbon dosing is to increase heterotrophic bacteria, that will absorb Nitrates and Phosphates and then be removed by your skimmer. Not running a skimmer? Not going to help. Growing cheato? Carbon dosing is redundant.

A new tank isn't even close to a balanced stage.

And, plenty of amazing established tanks use absolutely no carbon dosing.

And, this is why I think your statement is wrong.

You don’t need a skimmer to use carbon dosing and fish poop does not have the same effects as carbon dosing. Or else we would never have nutrient problems.