Ammonium Chloride and oxidizer (KMnO4), to grow corals, less water changes, and very low organo-phosphates

Len Randal

New Member
View Badges
Joined
May 25, 2019
Messages
22
Reaction score
5
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
The following was only slightly discussed back in I think 2015, while what was then discussed mostly was to help grow corals. However, now after years of not being able to keep organo- phosphate down and not being able to keep it down consistently without starving fish, smothering green micro-algae, expensive "so-called" phosphate chemical removers and special equipment, we have some Great news to share!!!PHOSPHATES??? Grow it out with Ammonium chloride!!! This is the same ammonium chloride (NH4Cl) used to start cycling fresh and/or marine aquariums ., but at a different concentration , added daily!!! Now the story: Up until six (6) months ago all of our four (4) main reef aquariums (+/-)110 gallons, where we had half dead corals (Acroporas , Montiporas, other sps and some soft ), were covered with THICK green algae and cyanobacteria, etc. And , we could not in 53 plus years ever seem to grow pink coralline algae. The only very short time that we could ever even start to grow coralline was when the aquarium was relatively new (1st 6 months or less), starved the fish, many dollars worth of phosphate re-moving pads, granules, etc. ,and unending work with constant water changes (Sound familiar??). Then, 6 months ago, after thinking about a sentence that Julian Sprung had written in " The Reef aquarium ".. "The concentration of ammonium (nitrogen) out over a Real live coral reef is very low " !!!!And phosphates are low enough to allow corals and coralline algae to prosper! The nitrogen in ammonium along with phosphates (Phosphorus) and potassium (K)form the three (3) main plant nutrients (N_P_K) for all plants be it cotton, soy beans, amazon swords, zooxanthellate (coral micro-algae), chaetomorpha (a macro-algae), etc. Now, however, we add ammonium chloride daily and all un-wanted hairy algae, etc. have nearly totally disappeared and the pink coralline grows abundantly , as do the acroporas , clams, and all other corals. The corals can make their own amino acids now that they have the raw materials to do so ! We grow macro-algaes (Chaetomorpha, Rhodophyta dragons tongue ) at a very fast rate ( with fairly bright light ) , out competing the green micro-algaes for phosphate, and all reef tanks look like real coralline encrusted reef rock! And, now we can really feed our fish, etc, plenty of food without resulting in slow death to especially sps corals. All of our customers are reporting the same results!... If you would like more information you can Google the phone number of Marine World Tropical Fish in Hot Springs, AR ..... So PHOSPHATES,??? Just "grow "them out of the way with ammonium chloride!!..... Addendum #1 to the above: The "phosphate" that gives the most trouble (Organo-phosphate), of course, comes from feeding animals (fish, etc.) in a closed system (aquarium), , however, most " "phosphate test kits) only test for " Inorganic-phosphates"!!! Inorganic-phosphates can "test" nearly zero (0), and yet the micro-algae and dead acroporas (etc.) still persist!!! Now, we use ammonium chloride to "UP" the Nitrogen ( corals, clams, etc. would rather use ammonium , than nitrate if they could have their choice).Now the macro-algaes (Chaetomorpha, etc.) can grow rapidly "without " cycle dying" ", and undoubtly bring the "Organo-phosphates) way, way down to the point where the pink and purple coralline algaes grow constantly. That's why I like to say that the best "test kit" for low phosphates is whether or not the coralline is growing!!!!...Addendum #2 : Something else that might help most of us who do NOT like changing large volumes of water and it really enhances the amount of skim mate in the cup of our "Protein Skimmers"; is to use a little daily of an oxidizer known as KMnO4 (Potassium permanganate) !!.A person could also use Ozone, but the ozone generator and regulating equipment might hit the wallet kind of hard. We use a small amount daily of KMnO4 , it helps greatly to oxidize and lower the overall amount of organic compounds that come from feeding animals (fish, etc.); then the oxidized organics can "attach" themselves to the tiny air bubbles in a protein skimmer , resulting in much more dark skim mate ; there by really cleaning the water (some people (including us) employ an ORP meter to keep a check on the water " oxidation-reduction -potential" conditions , with +- 400 being excellent , indicating very low organics. In addition to the relatively unseen organic compounds are the Results of high organics (Cyanobacteria, i.e. that ARE seen),to which KmnO4 oxidizes the "Feed" (organics) that feeds the Cyanobacteria, there by "starving" it of nutrients and then it gradually fades away! . !!! KENT Marine Co. use to bottle a product called Polyox, (KMnO4), but it seems to be out of production now. We make our own solution of KMnO4 , that we use and sell. .... Addendum #3::: Ammonium vs. AMMONIA??? Several people have inquired , if it is Ammonia that I'm writing about to use in a reef tank.... Answer: NO!!!. It is AMMONIUM that is relatively non-Toxic especially in the relatively small ppm. dose that we use at a common Reef aquarium pH of 8.3. Ammonia can occur (+- 10 % ) but the pH would have to be increased to a much higher pH than 8.3 . Relatively Non-toxic Ammonium and very toxic Ammonia are pH dependent, so just keep the pH at 8.3 and all should be well. Call me at Marine World, Hot Springs ,AR if I can be of any further help...... Addendum #4: Someone just ask a question about their corals closing up after dosing, and then reopening later? I too , have also had corals to close , especially after adding too much KMno4, so I then take the hint and start using half doses or less from that time forward . Also, I try to squirt the very dose KMnO4
into the polyester detritus socks or in front of the polyester filter (HOB) cartridges, or even into the throat of the protein skimmer , so that the KMno4 has plenty of time to dissipate , before it can get to the corals.
 

Dan_P

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Messages
6,436
Reaction score
6,890
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
The following was only slightly discussed back in I think 2015, while what was then discussed mostly was to help grow corals. However, now after years of not being able to keep organo- phosphate down and not being able to keep it down consistently without starving fish, smothering green micro-algae, expensive "so-called" phosphate chemical removers and special equipment, we have some Great news to share!!!PHOSPHATES??? Grow it out with Ammonium chloride!!! This is the same ammonium chloride (NH4Cl) used to start cycling fresh and/or marine aquariums ., but at a different concentration , added daily!!! Now the story: Up until six (6) months ago all of our four (4) main reef aquariums (+/-)110 gallons, where we had half dead corals (Acroporas , Montiporas, other sps and some soft ), were covered with THICK green algae and cyanobacteria, etc. And , we could not in 53 plus years ever seem to grow pink coralline algae. The only very short time that we could ever even start to grow coralline was when the aquarium was relatively new (1st 6 months or less), starved the fish, many dollars worth of phosphate re-moving pads, granules, etc. ,and unending work with constant water changes (Sound familiar??). Then, 6 months ago, after thinking about a sentence that Julian Sprung had written in " The Reef aquarium ".. "The concentration of ammonium (nitrogen) out over a Real live coral reef is very low " !!!!And phosphates are low enough to allow corals and coralline algae to prosper! The nitrogen in ammonium along with phosphates (Phosphorus) and potassium (K)form the three (3) main plant nutrients (N_P_K) for all plants be it cotton, soy beans, amazon swords, zooxanthellate (coral micro-algae), chaetomorpha (a macro-algae), etc. Now, however, we add ammonium chloride daily and all un-wanted hairy algae, etc. have nearly totally disappeared and the pink coralline grows abundantly , as do the acroporas , clams, and all other corals. The corals can make their own amino acids now that they have the raw materials to do so ! We grow macro-algaes (Chaetomorpha, Rhodophyta dragons tongue ) at a very fast rate ( with fairly bright light ) , out competing the green micro-algaes for phosphate, and all reef tanks look like real coralline encrusted reef rock! And, now we can really feed our fish, etc, plenty of food without resulting in slow death to especially sps corals. All of our customers are reporting the same results!... If you would like more information you can Google the phone number of Marine World Tropical Fish in Hot Springs, AR ..... So PHOSPHATES,??? Just "grow "them out of the way with ammonium chloride!!..... Addendum #1 to the above: The "phosphate" that gives the most trouble (Organo-phosphate), of course, comes from feeding animals (fish, etc.) in a closed system (aquarium), , however, most " "phosphate test kits) only test for " Inorganic-phosphates"!!! Inorganic-phosphates can "test" nearly zero (0), and yet the micro-algae and dead acroporas (etc.) still persist!!! Now, we use ammonium chloride to "UP" the Nitrogen ( corals, clams, etc. would rather use ammonium , than nitrate if they could have their choice).Now the macro-algaes (Chaetomorpha, etc.) can grow rapidly "without " cycle dying" ", and undoubtly bring the "Organo-phosphates) way, way down to the point where the pink and purple coralline algaes grow constantly. That's why I like to say that the best "test kit" for low phosphates is whether or not the coralline is growing!!!!...Addendum #2 : Something else that might help most of us who do NOT like changing large volumes of water and it really enhances the amount of skim mate in the cup of our "Protein Skimmers"; is to use a little daily of an oxidizer known as KMnO4 (Potassium permanganate) !!.A person could also use Ozone, but the ozone generator and regulating equipment might hit the wallet kind of hard. We use a small amount daily of KMnO4 , it helps greatly to oxidize and lower the overall amount of organic compounds that come from feeding animals (fish, etc.); then the oxidized organics can "attach" themselves to the tiny air bubbles in a protein skimmer , resulting in much more dark skim mate ; there by really cleaning the water (some people (including us) employ an ORP meter to keep a check on the water " oxidation-reduction -potential" conditions , with +- 400 being excellent , indicating very low organics. In addition to the relatively unseen organic compounds are the Results of high organics (Cyanobacteria, i.e. that ARE seen),to which KmnO4 oxidizes the "Feed" (organics) that feeds the Cyanobacteria, there by "starving" it of nutrients and then it gradually fades away! . !!! KENT Marine Co. use to bottle a product called Polyox, (KMnO4), but it seems to be out of production now. We make our own solution of KMnO4 , that we use and sell. .... Addendum #3::: Ammonium vs. AMMONIA??? Several people have inquired , if it is Ammonia that I'm writing about to use in a reef tank.... Answer: NO!!!. It is AMMONIUM that is relatively non-Toxic especially in the relatively small ppm. dose that we use at a common Reef aquarium pH of 8.3. Ammonia can occur (+- 10 % ) but the pH would have to be increased to a much higher pH than 8.3 . Relatively Non-toxic Ammonium and very toxic Ammonia are pH dependent, so just keep the pH at 8.3 and all should be well. Call me at Marine World, Hot Springs ,AR if I can be of any further help...... Addendum #4: Someone just ask a question about their corals closing up after dosing, and then reopening later? I too , have also had corals to close , especially after adding too much KMno4, so I then take the hint and start using half doses or less from that time forward . Also, I try to squirt the very dose KMnO4
into the polyester detritus socks or in front of the polyester filter (HOB) cartridges, or even into the throat of the protein skimmer , so that the KMno4 has plenty of time to dissipate , before it can get to the corals.
How did you measure the amount of organo-phosphates?
 
OP
OP
L

Len Randal

New Member
View Badges
Joined
May 25, 2019
Messages
22
Reaction score
5
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
How did you measure the amount of organo-phosphates?
Just like I said in the article: Most phosphate test kits only test INORGANIC phosphates, which could test near zero , but still have huge "Phosphate associated problems" : (way too much micro-algae, dying sps, and very little coralline algae growing. That's why I wrote in the article , that CONSTANT coralline algae growth (And not just growing for a short time after large water changes); was in my opinion the best "TEST" for low to no organo-phosphates! Maybe there is an organo-phosphate test kit as such, it's just that I've never heard of one??? Maybe Randy knows of one???
 

Dan_P

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Messages
6,436
Reaction score
6,890
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Just like I said in the article: Most phosphate test kits only test INORGANIC phosphates, which could test near zero , but still have huge "Phosphate associated problems" : (way too much micro-algae, dying sps, and very little coralline algae growing. That's why I wrote in the article , that CONSTANT coralline algae growth (And not just growing for a short time after large water changes); was in my opinion the best "TEST" for low to no organo-phosphates! Maybe there is an organo-phosphate test kit as such, it's just that I've never heard of one??? Maybe Randy knows of one???
OK.

Have you tried dosing manganese instead of using MnO4-?
 

Doctorgori

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 18, 2019
Messages
4,125
Reaction score
5,362
Location
Myrtle Beach
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
potassium permanganate? the purple granules? my concern is even a very small amount will dye the water. Hmmm
Following with interest….

Added, come to think of it there was another “repackaged” permanganate solution for aquarium use…can’t recall the name tho…
can I ask the dilution/dosage rate ?
 
Last edited:

Dan_P

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 21, 2018
Messages
6,436
Reaction score
6,890
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
The following was only slightly discussed back in I think 2015, while what was then discussed mostly was to help grow corals. However, now after years of not being able to keep organo- phosphate down and not being able to keep it down consistently without starving fish, smothering green micro-algae, expensive "so-called" phosphate chemical removers and special equipment, we have some Great news to share!!!PHOSPHATES??? Grow it out with Ammonium chloride!!! This is the same ammonium chloride (NH4Cl) used to start cycling fresh and/or marine aquariums ., but at a different concentration , added daily!!! Now the story: Up until six (6) months ago all of our four (4) main reef aquariums (+/-)110 gallons, where we had half dead corals (Acroporas , Montiporas, other sps and some soft ), were covered with THICK green algae and cyanobacteria, etc. And , we could not in 53 plus years ever seem to grow pink coralline algae. The only very short time that we could ever even start to grow coralline was when the aquarium was relatively new (1st 6 months or less), starved the fish, many dollars worth of phosphate re-moving pads, granules, etc. ,and unending work with constant water changes (Sound familiar??). Then, 6 months ago, after thinking about a sentence that Julian Sprung had written in " The Reef aquarium ".. "The concentration of ammonium (nitrogen) out over a Real live coral reef is very low " !!!!And phosphates are low enough to allow corals and coralline algae to prosper! The nitrogen in ammonium along with phosphates (Phosphorus) and potassium (K)form the three (3) main plant nutrients (N_P_K) for all plants be it cotton, soy beans, amazon swords, zooxanthellate (coral micro-algae), chaetomorpha (a macro-algae), etc. Now, however, we add ammonium chloride daily and all un-wanted hairy algae, etc. have nearly totally disappeared and the pink coralline grows abundantly , as do the acroporas , clams, and all other corals. The corals can make their own amino acids now that they have the raw materials to do so ! We grow macro-algaes (Chaetomorpha, Rhodophyta dragons tongue ) at a very fast rate ( with fairly bright light ) , out competing the green micro-algaes for phosphate, and all reef tanks look like real coralline encrusted reef rock! And, now we can really feed our fish, etc, plenty of food without resulting in slow death to especially sps corals. All of our customers are reporting the same results!... If you would like more information you can Google the phone number of Marine World Tropical Fish in Hot Springs, AR ..... So PHOSPHATES,??? Just "grow "them out of the way with ammonium chloride!!..... Addendum #1 to the above: The "phosphate" that gives the most trouble (Organo-phosphate), of course, comes from feeding animals (fish, etc.) in a closed system (aquarium), , however, most " "phosphate test kits) only test for " Inorganic-phosphates"!!! Inorganic-phosphates can "test" nearly zero (0), and yet the micro-algae and dead acroporas (etc.) still persist!!! Now, we use ammonium chloride to "UP" the Nitrogen ( corals, clams, etc. would rather use ammonium , than nitrate if they could have their choice).Now the macro-algaes (Chaetomorpha, etc.) can grow rapidly "without " cycle dying" ", and undoubtly bring the "Organo-phosphates) way, way down to the point where the pink and purple coralline algaes grow constantly. That's why I like to say that the best "test kit" for low phosphates is whether or not the coralline is growing!!!!...Addendum #2 : Something else that might help most of us who do NOT like changing large volumes of water and it really enhances the amount of skim mate in the cup of our "Protein Skimmers"; is to use a little daily of an oxidizer known as KMnO4 (Potassium permanganate) !!.A person could also use Ozone, but the ozone generator and regulating equipment might hit the wallet kind of hard. We use a small amount daily of KMnO4 , it helps greatly to oxidize and lower the overall amount of organic compounds that come from feeding animals (fish, etc.); then the oxidized organics can "attach" themselves to the tiny air bubbles in a protein skimmer , resulting in much more dark skim mate ; there by really cleaning the water (some people (including us) employ an ORP meter to keep a check on the water " oxidation-reduction -potential" conditions , with +- 400 being excellent , indicating very low organics. In addition to the relatively unseen organic compounds are the Results of high organics (Cyanobacteria, i.e. that ARE seen),to which KmnO4 oxidizes the "Feed" (organics) that feeds the Cyanobacteria, there by "starving" it of nutrients and then it gradually fades away! . !!! KENT Marine Co. use to bottle a product called Polyox, (KMnO4), but it seems to be out of production now. We make our own solution of KMnO4 , that we use and sell. .... Addendum #3::: Ammonium vs. AMMONIA??? Several people have inquired , if it is Ammonia that I'm writing about to use in a reef tank.... Answer: NO!!!. It is AMMONIUM that is relatively non-Toxic especially in the relatively small ppm. dose that we use at a common Reef aquarium pH of 8.3. Ammonia can occur (+- 10 % ) but the pH would have to be increased to a much higher pH than 8.3 . Relatively Non-toxic Ammonium and very toxic Ammonia are pH dependent, so just keep the pH at 8.3 and all should be well. Call me at Marine World, Hot Springs ,AR if I can be of any further help...... Addendum #4: Someone just ask a question about their corals closing up after dosing, and then reopening later? I too , have also had corals to close , especially after adding too much KMno4, so I then take the hint and start using half doses or less from that time forward . Also, I try to squirt the very dose KMnO4
into the polyester detritus socks or in front of the polyester filter (HOB) cartridges, or even into the throat of the protein skimmer , so that the KMno4 has plenty of time to dissipate , before it can get to the corals.
How much KMnO4 is being added per day? How many mg per gallon or liter?
 
OP
OP
L

Len Randal

New Member
View Badges
Joined
May 25, 2019
Messages
22
Reaction score
5
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
potassium permanganate? the purple granules? my concern is even a very small amount will dye the water. Hmmm
Following with interest….

Added, come to think of it there was another “repackaged” permanganate solution for aquarium use…can’t recall the name tho…
can I ask the dilution/dosage rate ?
Yes, 1 drop per 10 gallons from a 22mg per liter solution: of course , the dosage can be increased with caution, a higher dosage will definitely work to let the protein skimmer remove much more oxidized organics and absolutely starve and stop the growth of cyanobacteria! The name that you might be trying to recall for the producers of aquarium use KMnO4, was probably Kent Marine???
 
OP
OP
L

Len Randal

New Member
View Badges
Joined
May 25, 2019
Messages
22
Reaction score
5
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
How much KMnO4 is being added per day? How many mg per gallon or liter?
If you would Sir; please see the reply to Dr. Gorey: = 1 drop per 10 gallons per day of a 22mg per liter H2O solution.
potassium permanganate? the purple granules? my concern is even a very small amount will dye the water. Hmmm
Following with interest….

Added, come to think of it there was another “repackaged” permanganate solution for aquarium use…can’t recall the name tho…
can I ask the dilution/dosage rate ?
Sorry Sir; I'm not much of a computer person; the dosage of the solution is 1 drop per 10 gallons of a 22 mg of KMnO4 per liter H2O solution. The repackaged product was more than likely Polyox by Kent Marine.
 
OP
OP
L

Len Randal

New Member
View Badges
Joined
May 25, 2019
Messages
22
Reaction score
5
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Yes, 1 drop per 10 gallons from a 22mg per liter solution: of course , the dosage can be increased with caution, a higher dosage will definitely work to let the protein skimmer remove much more oxidized organics and absolutely starve and stop the growth of cyanobacteria! The name that you might be trying to recall for the producers of aquarium use KMnO4, was probably Kent Marine???
If you would Sir; please see the reply to Dr. Gorey: = 1 drop per 10 gallons per day of a 22mg per liter H2O solution.

Sorry Sir; I'm not much of a computer person; the dosage of the solution is 1 drop per 10 gallons of a 22 mg of KMnO4 per liter H2O solution. The repackaged product was more than likely Polyox by Kent Marine.
Sorry again: it 22 GRAMS per liter, not 22 milligrams.
 
OP
OP
L

Len Randal

New Member
View Badges
Joined
May 25, 2019
Messages
22
Reaction score
5
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
If you would Sir; please see the reply to Dr. Gorey: = 1 drop per 10 gallons per day of a 22mg per liter H2O solution.

Sorry Sir; I'm not much of a computer person; the dosage of the solution is 1 drop per 10 gallons of a 22 mg of KMnO4 per liter H2O solution. The repackaged product was more than likely Polyox by Kent Marine.
Sorry again : it is 22GRAMS per liter and NOT 22 milligrams.
 
OP
OP
L

Len Randal

New Member
View Badges
Joined
May 25, 2019
Messages
22
Reaction score
5
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
If you would Sir; please see the reply to Dr. Gorey: = 1 drop per 10 gallons per day of a 22mg per liter H2O solution.

Sorry Sir; I'm not much of a computer person; the dosage of the solution is 1 drop per 10 gallons of a 22 mg of KMnO4 per liter H2O solution. The repackaged product was more than likely Polyox by Kent Marine.
Sorry again: it is 22 GRAMS per liter and not just 22 milligrams.
 
OP
OP
L

Len Randal

New Member
View Badges
Joined
May 25, 2019
Messages
22
Reaction score
5
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Yes, 1 drop per 10 gallons from a 22mg per liter solution: of course , the dosage can be increased with caution, a higher dosage will definitely work to let the protein skimmer remove much more oxidized organics and absolutely starve and stop the growth of cyanobacteria! The name that you might be trying to recall for the producers of aquarium use KMnO4, was probably Kent Marine???
Yes again: Sorry, The message should have read 22 GRAMS per liter...etc.
 
OP
OP
L

Len Randal

New Member
View Badges
Joined
May 25, 2019
Messages
22
Reaction score
5
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Yes, 1 drop per 10 gallons from a 22mg per liter solution: of course , the dosage can be increased with caution, a higher dosage will definitely work to let the protein skimmer remove much more oxidized organics and absolutely starve and stop the growth of cyanobacteria! The name that you might be trying to recall for the producers of aquarium use KMnO4, was probably Kent Marine???
Yes SIR: Sorry, for the mis typing: It should have read 22 GRAMS per liter and not just mg.
 
OP
OP
L

Len Randal

New Member
View Badges
Joined
May 25, 2019
Messages
22
Reaction score
5
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
FWIW, I’m not a fan of permanganate as it will react with and damage tissues it encounters.
Yes!!! To ALL concerned: This does work great and can be easier and far less expensive than Ozone; but when dosing : Always dose as far UP-Stream from invertebrates (i.e. Corals) as possible; so the reaction to living tissues is at a minimum !!!!
 
OP
OP
L

Len Randal

New Member
View Badges
Joined
May 25, 2019
Messages
22
Reaction score
5
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Yes!!! To ALL concerned: This does work great and can be easier and far less expensive than Ozone; but when dosing : Always dose as far UP-Stream from invertebrates (i.e. Corals) as possible; so the reaction to living tissues is at a minimum !!!!
 

gwainrig

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Apr 12, 2016
Messages
85
Reaction score
25
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
what is the dilution rate for the ammonium chloride..amount diluted per liter..thanks
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

Reef Chemist
View Badges
Joined
Sep 5, 2014
Messages
65,544
Reaction score
61,827
Location
Arlington, Massachusetts, United States
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
what is the dilution rate for the ammonium chloride..amount diluted per liter..thanks

I give two different ammonia dosing recipes here:
 

Resetting your reef: Have you ever had to unstack and restack the aquascape?

  • I have re-aquascaped the entire tank.

    Votes: 64 55.7%
  • I have re-aquascaped part of the tank.

    Votes: 34 29.6%
  • I have not ever re-aquascaped the tank.

    Votes: 24 20.9%
  • Other.

    Votes: 2 1.7%
Back
Top