Cheap vs name brand vs homemade dosing solutuons

[Tankkeepers]

So I was wanting to get everyone's thoughts on the difrent types of products we use to dose our reef tank

I'm trying to see if there is a major difrence between cheap products like backing soda to control alk vs red sea alk vs a no name alk

The reason I want to know this is alot of people dose sodium bicarbonate to control alk

But the alk of a reef tank is more then just sodium bicarbonate

Alkalinity is not a chemical in water, but, rather, it is a property of water that is dependent on the presence of certain chemicals in the water, such as bicarbonates, carbonates, and hydroxides

Other common natural components that can contribute to alkalinity include borate, hydroxide, phosphate, silicate, dissolved ammonia, the conjugate bases of some organic acids (e.g., acetate), and sulfate.

So has anyone noticed a dfrence between just backing soda

And the ones that contain everything need for alk

Vs no names that we really don't know for sure every bottle has the same consintratiin

I would think borate is just as important as sodium bicarbonate and carbonate

This lack of effective buffering at a normal tank pH is one of the reasons that some salt manufacturers (Seachem, as told to me by the late Leo Morin, and possibly to a lesser extent, Coralife) boost the borate concentrations in their salt mixes. Since the pKa of borate in seawater is about 8.6, its maximal b (pH 8.6) is not far from the range experienced by reef tanks. In normal seawater at pH 8, borate provides about half of the buffering against a small downward pH change, despite the fact that it provides less than 3% of the total alkalinity. In Seachem salt, where borate is about 10x natural levels, borate totally dominates the buffering in the pH range experienced by reef tanks.

See

Chemistry And The Aquarium: The Relationship Between Alkalinity And pH

Randy answers many questions in this complex relationship.

reefs.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I would think borate is just as important as sodium bicarbonate and carbonate

Well, borate is much less important for certain things (pH stability or coral calcification, for example), but the more important point is not what constitutes alkalinity in seawater, but what is actually being consumed that must be replaced.

That is essentially just bicarbonate/carbonate in terms of alk components. There's no big sink for borate. I did not add any for 20 years, except via regular water changes, and it was not depleted in my tank at all.

 

[Tankkeepers]

Well, borate is much less important for certain things (pH stability or coral calcification, for example), but the more important point is not what constitutes alkalinity in seawater, but what is actually being consumed that must be replaced.

That is essentially just bicarbonate/carbonate in terms of alk components. There's no big sink for borate. I did not add any for 20 years, except via regular water changes, and it was not depleted in my tank at all.

This is good info

And what I was wondering if waterchanges alone was enoff

but you must not of read Everything a borate is extremely important for ph stability

Borate makes up about 3 percent of total alk buffer but is responsible for almost 50 percent of the water buffering capacity for ph swings you are correct about coral calcification that needs bicarbonate and calcium mainly

So saying borate is not as important is just plain wrong

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

IMO, the primary concern with using just baking soda/washing soda/sodium hydroxide and calcium chloride is slow accumulation of sodium and chloride, and the depression of everything else if you maintain salinity. Things like sulfate, potassium, bromide, etc.

That is where a good two part comes in, or using Balling Part C along with the DIY ingredients.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is good info

And what I was wondering if waterchanges alone was enoff

but you must not of read Everything a borate is extremely important for ph stability

Borate makes up about 3 percent of total alk buffer but is responsible for almost 50 percent of the water buffering capacity for ph swings

So saying borate is not as important is just plain wrong

Borate is not "extremely important to pH stability", but it does contribute.

Chemistry And The Aquarium: Boron In A Reef Tank

This article also discusses the sources and sinks for boron in reef tanks, and shows that while typical tanks may be slightly depleted in boron with respect to natural levels, most are not so significantly depleted that any correction is required. Nevertheless, how to test for and supplement...

reefs.com

Buffering capacity can be quantified using the buffer intensity, b, defined mathematically in a way that is easy to calculate, but that isn’t worth detailing here.2 The units of the buffering intensity can be expressed as meq/L or meq/L/pH unit (these are equivalent since pH is really a dimensionless parameter). Thinking about it as meq/L/pH unit makes it easier to understand that it is a measure of the amount of alkalinity (or acidity; either one measured as meq/L) that needs to be added to impact the pH up or down by one unit (though that is a substantial simplification).

In the case of normal seawater at pH 8.2, b = 0.19 meq/L/pH unit for the boric acid/borate system, and 0.63 meq/L/pH unit for the bicarbonate/carbonate system. These values are additive, and result in a total buffering of b = 0.82 meq/L/pH unit. Under these conditions, the boric acid/borate system provides about 23% of the total buffering, while the bicarbonate/carbonate system provides about 77%.

If the pH of normal seawater is raised to 8.5, the total buffering is b = 1.2 meq/L/pH unit, or about 40% greater than at pH 8.2 (because both systems are closer to the pKa). At this pH, the relative contribution of the two systems to the total capacity is only slightly different than at pH 8.2, with 20% from borate and 80% from carbonate.

If the pH of normal seawater is lowered to 7.8, the total buffering is b = 0.42 meq/L/pH unit, or about half that at pH 8.2 (because both systems are farther from the pKa). At this pH, the relative contribution of the two systems to the total capacity is also only slightly different than at pH 8.2, with 29% from borate and 71% from carbonate.

 

[Tankkeepers]

IMO, the primary concern with using just baking soda/washing soda/sodium hydroxide and calcium chloride is slow accumulation of sodium and chloride, and the depression of everything else if you maintain salinity. Things like sulfate, potassium, bromide, etc.

That is where a good two part comes in, or using Balling Part C along with the DIY ingredients.

What good 2 parts would you recommend or use yourself

 

[Tankkeepers]

Borate is not "extremely important to pH stability", but it does contribute.

Chemistry And The Aquarium: Boron In A Reef Tank

This article also discusses the sources and sinks for boron in reef tanks, and shows that while typical tanks may be slightly depleted in boron with respect to natural levels, most are not so significantly depleted that any correction is required. Nevertheless, how to test for and supplement...

reefs.com

Buffering capacity can be quantified using the buffer intensity, b, defined mathematically in a way that is easy to calculate, but that isn’t worth detailing here.2 The units of the buffering intensity can be expressed as meq/L or meq/L/pH unit (these are equivalent since pH is really a dimensionless parameter). Thinking about it as meq/L/pH unit makes it easier to understand that it is a measure of the amount of alkalinity (or acidity; either one measured as meq/L) that needs to be added to impact the pH up or down by one unit (though that is a substantial simplification).

In the case of normal seawater at pH 8.2, b = 0.19 meq/L/pH unit for the boric acid/borate system, and 0.63 meq/L/pH unit for the bicarbonate/carbonate system. These values are additive, and result in a total buffering of b = 0.82 meq/L/pH unit. Under these conditions, the boric acid/borate system provides about 23% of the total buffering, while the bicarbonate/carbonate system provides about 77%.

If the pH of normal seawater is raised to 8.5, the total buffering is b = 1.2 meq/L/pH unit, or about 40% greater than at pH 8.2 (because both systems are closer to the pKa). At this pH, the relative contribution of the two systems to the total capacity is only slightly different than at pH 8.2, with 20% from borate and 80% from carbonate.

If the pH of normal seawater is lowered to 7.8, the total buffering is b = 0.42 meq/L/pH unit, or about half that at pH 8.2 (because both systems are farther from the pKa). At this pH, the relative contribution of the two systems to the total capacity is also only slightly different than at pH 8.2, with 29% from borate and 71% from carbonate.

That's boron not borate

They are not the same

As nouns the difference between borate and boron is that borate is a salt formed by the combination of boric acid with a base or positive radical while boron is the chemical element (symbol b) with an atomic number of 5; a metalloid.

But even the 23 percent is a pretty big number

 

[Tankkeepers]

This lack of effective buffering at a normal tank pH is one of the reasons that some salt manufacturers (Seachem, as told to me by the late Leo Morin, and possibly to a lesser extent, Coralife) boost the borate concentrations in their salt mixes. Since the pKa of borate in seawater is about 8.6, its maximal b (pH 8.6) is not far from the range experienced by reef tanks. In normal seawater at pH 8, borate provides about half of the buffering against a small downward pH change, despite the fact that it provides less than 3% of the total alkalinity. In Seachem salt, where borate is about 10x natural levels, borate totally dominates the buffering in the pH range experienced by reef tanks

 

[Tankkeepers]

Borate is not "extremely important to pH stability", but it does contribute.

Chemistry And The Aquarium: Boron In A Reef Tank

This article also discusses the sources and sinks for boron in reef tanks, and shows that while typical tanks may be slightly depleted in boron with respect to natural levels, most are not so significantly depleted that any correction is required. Nevertheless, how to test for and supplement...

reefs.com

Buffering capacity can be quantified using the buffer intensity, b, defined mathematically in a way that is easy to calculate, but that isn’t worth detailing here.2 The units of the buffering intensity can be expressed as meq/L or meq/L/pH unit (these are equivalent since pH is really a dimensionless parameter). Thinking about it as meq/L/pH unit makes it easier to understand that it is a measure of the amount of alkalinity (or acidity; either one measured as meq/L) that needs to be added to impact the pH up or down by one unit (though that is a substantial simplification).

In the case of normal seawater at pH 8.2, b = 0.19 meq/L/pH unit for the boric acid/borate system, and 0.63 meq/L/pH unit for the bicarbonate/carbonate system. These values are additive, and result in a total buffering of b = 0.82 meq/L/pH unit. Under these conditions, the boric acid/borate system provides about 23% of the total buffering, while the bicarbonate/carbonate system provides about 77%.

If the pH of normal seawater is raised to 8.5, the total buffering is b = 1.2 meq/L/pH unit, or about 40% greater than at pH 8.2 (because both systems are closer to the pKa). At this pH, the relative contribution of the two systems to the total capacity is only slightly different than at pH 8.2, with 20% from borate and 80% from carbonate.

If the pH of normal seawater is lowered to 7.8, the total buffering is b = 0.42 meq/L/pH unit, or about half that at pH 8.2 (because both systems are farther from the pKa). At this pH, the relative contribution of the two systems to the total capacity is also only slightly different than at pH 8.2, with 29% from borate and 71% from carbonate.

I just wanted to say thank you very much as I really don't know about this I'm trying to learn

And from what iv gathers boron or borate does not need to be added by anything other then water changes

Very good info you have provided and extremely helpful

And from what I'm gathering boron turns to borate in the system then is used up

Is this correct?

I really don't know

I'm getting ready to start dosing my 32 biocube for alk and I'm trying to learn all I can about what alk actually is

 

[Tankkeepers]

Frogfishes have a stocky appearance, atypical of fish. Ranging from 2.5–38 cm (0.98–14.96 in) long, their plump, high-backed, unstreamlined body is scaleless and bare, often covered with bumpy, bifurcated spinules.

If you mean this that gets 14 inches a 40 breeder is not big enoff

I would stop thinking about getting this if this is what your talking about

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That's boron not borate

They are not the same

You know I wrote the articles that you and I have posted to this thread, right?

You keep quoting my articles as evidence that what I said isn't true. lol

All boron is seawater is present as borate or boric acid.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I just wanted to say thank you very much as I really don't know about this I'm trying to learn

And from what iv gathers boron or borate does not need to be added by anything other then water changes

Very good info you have provided and extremely helpful

And from what I'm gathering boron turns to borate in the system then is used up

Is this correct?

ICP measures boron only, but in reality it is all borate and boric acid.

I've never seen any evidence that boron in any form is significantly depleted in a tank doing water changes. If an ICP test suggests it is low, it is certainly appropriate to dose it.

But I do not think that alkalinity supplements should generally contain it as part of the alkalinity replacement that is needed to offset a variety of processes, most notably calcification (biological and abiotic on heaters and such)and in some cases, the nitrogen cycle.

That said, a high quality two or three part alk and calcium system (including Balling) will contain borate for the same reason it must contain sulfate, potassium and all other ions because those will get depressed when Na and Cl are allowed to accumulate from the alk and calcium portions, and when salinity is maintained, all those other things drop down if they are not added.

 

[Tankkeepers]

ICP measures boron only, but in reality it is all borate and boric acid.

I've never seen any evidence that boron in any form is significantly depleted in a tank doing water changes. If an ICP test suggests it is low, it is certainly appropriate to dose it.

But I do not think that alkalinity supplements should generally contain it as part of the alkalinity replacement that is needed to offset a variety of processes, most notably calcification (biological and abiotic on heaters and such)and in some cases, the nitrogen cycle.

That said, a high quality two or three part alk and calcium system (including Balling) will contain borate for the same reason it must contain sulfate, potassium and all other ions because those will get depressed when Na and Cl are allowed to accumulate from the alk and calcium portions, and when salinity is maintained, all those other things drop down if they are not added.

This was my suspension but I did not know for sure

Thank you so very much for this extremely helpful for choosing an appropriate dosing solution

I plan to use red sea foundation honestly

Enless I find somthing better

I figure the stuff in the foundation kit is more then likely the same as what's in the red sea salt coral pro I already use and everything's good so why change

That's my thinking might not be correct

 

[Tankkeepers]

You know I wrote the articles that you and I have posted to this thread, right?

You keep quoting my articles as evidence that what I said isn't true. lol

All boron is seawater is present as borate or boric acid.

Ahhh lol no I did not

and was never trying to prove you wrong at all

I'm trying to grasp all the knowledge I can

And in that is asking alot of questions when I don't completely understand what's going on

Which is why I brought up both that they were difrent and how I expected they related to one another

Then asked if that was correct

Again thank you for your time very helpful info

I learn new things every day even after 12 years

And I need the best for my mini slice of heaven

 

[Tankkeepers]

Balling

I'm looking into this now ty

I plan to use an apex to monitor and I'll set dosing maually until I trust the unit (might be never might always be just an alert system)