Copper Power Disastrous Behavior

[bms270]

Hi @Randy Holmes-Farley and other folks,

Here's my disaster story.. After a lot of research on the benefits and drawbacks of dosing my FOWLR display tank with copper power, I ended up dosing the entire tank according to the label.

Tank size: 230G
Dosing amount 11 Ounce (325ml)

I added the above amount in two doses (A few hours apart) and checked with Hanna Checker about one hour after dosing each time and the final reading came to 2.49ppm which is exactly the suggested concentration. Within a couple hours, I noticed signs of stress on the fish and cloudy eyes on angels. The next morning every single fish was dead. Lost 13 fish including my beloved and pretty chubby Harlequin Tusk. Unbelievable scene to wake up to..

I tested everything including Ammonia and other Nutrients but everything seemed to be pretty normal. After clearing the tank of all the lost lives, I decided to test the copper again and to my surprise, it read flashing 5ppm (Maxed out) on the Hanna (The sample turned dark purple - almost black). I am really baffled as how could the copper raise on its own after being stable at 2.5ppm according to the dosing instructions.

I am not a chemist so really don't know how this is possible. Only thing came to my mind is that I had dosed Prime right before adding the CP. The question is would it be possible for the reducer agent in Prime to break down the chelated copper causing the concentration to go double/triple in its toxic form?

I have read many places suggesting the Prime and CP are safe to use together so not sure if the theory above make any sense.

The only other thing on this tank that might be the cause is using Sulfur Denitrator but that I doubt would be the culprit.

Any thoughts?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This post on a different site has a reasonable discussion and experiment that bears on this issue:

PSA: PRIME safe to use with COPPER POWER

First, a few disclaimers: This only applies to using Seachem Prime with Copper Power. I have not tested any other ammonia reducers with any other forms of copper. Seachem, for example, states right on their website that it is dangerous to mix any ammonia reducer with their Cupramine copper...

humble.fish

While some of the discussion about what a chelating agent is and does is not correct, the concern about Cu+1 forming and the results of testing are seemingly valid.

 

[bms270]

Thanks @Randy Holmes-Farley. That discussion is what I read before adding copper but it ended up with a different result. I suppose I can try this again in a separate bucket to see if I can repeat the same. If I understand your post correctly, you believe chemically the formation of Cu+1 from the Chelated Copper is possible as a result of a reducer agent in Prime. Correct?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks @Randy Holmes-Farley. That discussion is what I read before adding copper but it ended up with a different result. I suppose I can try this again in a separate bucket to see if I can repeat the same. If I understand your post correctly, you believe chemically the formation of Cu+1 from the Chelated Copper is possible as a result of a reducer agent in Prime. Correct?

Yes. What effect that may have on toxicity, I am uncertain.

 

[bms270]

I just remeasured by diluting 1:9 (one part tank water, 9 part new saltwater) and I got 3.7ppm. That means I have a concentration of 37ppm copper in the tank water now. That is a huge spike from 2.5ppm Chelated Copper in CP and explains it well on how it was able to pull the life out of 13 fish in 24 hours..

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I just remeasured by diluting 1:9 (one part tank water, 9 part new saltwater) and I got 3.7ppm. That means I have a concentration of 37ppm copper in the tank water now. That is a huge spike from 2.5ppm Chelated Copper in CP and explains it well on how it was able to pull the life out of 13 fish in 24 hours..

How did it get that high?

 

[bms270]

How did it get that high?

That is what I am wondering. I am thinking the reaction between Prime and CP causes some sort of break down of chelated copper causing the high concentration. I cannot think of anything else. I only bought one 12 Ounce bottle of CP and I still have 1 Ounce left in it. My tank is 230G.

 

[JayM]

That is what I am wondering. I am thinking the reaction between Prime and CP causes some sort of break down of chelated copper causing the high concentration. I cannot think of anything else. I only bought one 12 Ounce bottle of CP and I still have 1 Ounce left in it. My tank is 230G.

Your tank may be 230 gallons, but how much of that is displaced by hardscape and substrate?

I know it wouldn’t be enough to make it skyrocket, but it may factor in.

 

[JayM]

Maybe mix some copper in a gallon of fresh saltwater, test, then dose prime and check again? I’d try it myself but I’m running low on copper reagent and currently have fish in QT.

 

[Spare time]

Your tank may be 230 gallons, but how much of that is displaced by hardscape and substrate?

I know it wouldn’t be enough to make it skyrocket, but it may factor in.

That is what I was wondering. Maybe a miscalculation?

 

[bms270]

Maybe mix some copper in a gallon of fresh saltwater, test, then dose prime and check again? I’d try it myself but I’m running low on copper reagent and currently have fish in QT.

That is my plan but waiting to get new copper reagents. I ran out of them trying to dilute enough to read with Hanna. It gets max reading of 5ppm.

 

[bms270]

That is what I was wondering. Maybe a miscalculation?

My tank is RedSea S1000 G2. It has total volume of 265G. The 230G is after subtracting the substrate and Live rocks. There's no way this was miscalculated. I also verified the dosing one hour after dosing and I got a perfect 2.49ppm reading. Something must have happened during the 24 hour period for the copper to spike. Only thing I know I added was Prime. Nothing else.. I know it is strange..

 

[Spare time]

My tank is RedSea S1000 G2. It has total volume of 265G. The 230G is after subtracting the substrate and Live rocks. There's no way this was miscalculated. I also verified the dosing one hour after dosing and I got a perfect 2.49ppm reading. Something must have happened during the 24 hour period for the copper to spike. Only thing I know I added was Prime. Nothing else.. I know it is strange..

Maybe the test was errored? Or maybe it wasn't the copper at all. Sometimes its just correlation. It could have been an oxygen issue since it happened at night when they died.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That is what I am wondering. I am thinking the reaction between Prime and CP causes some sort of break down of chelated copper causing the high concentration. I cannot think of anything else. I only bought one 12 Ounce bottle of CP and I still have 1 Ounce left in it. My tank is 230G.

Prime may possibly change the form of individual copper ions, but it cannot increase the number of copper ions present.

 

[bms270]

Prime may possibly change the form of individual copper ions, but it cannot increase the number of copper ions present.

I wonder if the reaction causes the Hanna reagent to have a false reading? Would sending the sample to ICP a good option?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I wonder if the reaction causes the Hanna reagent to have a false reading? Would sending the sample to ICP a good option?

I don’t know about whether Prime and copper power might mess with the Hanna copper. You could test that in a bucket.