Correlation of 2-Part, Salinity and Trace elements?

[jlts21]

So I was recently at a swap were Lou Ekus (CEO of Tropic Marin) was a guest speaker talking about reef chemistry. My question could not be answered because I was not going to stand around and wait for him to get to me. He talked about using a 2-part and it raising salinity. To combat that, you add RODI. But doing so decreases the amount of trace elements over time while keeping alk/cal and salinity stable. My question is this (I may be over thinking this, but I can't find the answer anywhere): if you were to add 2 part (ie; BRS) to raise alk/cal in a fresh batch of saltwater and then do a water change that would have the same effect right?(corals uptaking the calcium carbonate while leaving behind the sodium chloride). The solution is to run a calcium reactor (which I hope to implement soon)

 

[Larry L]

He explains it pretty well in his presentation at MACNA 2019, maybe that will have the extra info you are looking for:

 

[jlts21]

He explains it pretty well in his presentation at MACNA 2019, maybe that will have the extra info you are looking for:

that is the exact presentation I saw. At the 15:57 mark is when he starts talking about dosing a 2-part. My question pertains more to dosing a new batch of saltwater mix to match your tank levels (ie 9dkh and 450ppm) and its effects. I may be overthinking it, but if you add 2 part solution (calcium chloride and sodium carbonate) to a batch of saltwater for a water change, those ions are still in the water column and once corals start to uptake the calcium carbonate the sodium chloride would still be left behind, thus raising the salinity while also increasing the ratio of cal/alk to trace elements

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So I was recently at a swap were Lou Ekus (CEO of Tropic Marin) was a guest speaker talking about reef chemistry. My question could not be answered because I was not going to stand around and wait for him to get to me. He talked about using a 2-part and it raising salinity. To combat that, you add RODI. But doing so decreases the amount of trace elements over time while keeping alk/cal and salinity stable. My question is this (I may be over thinking this, but I can't find the answer anywhere): if you were to add 2 part (ie; BRS) to raise alk/cal in a fresh batch of saltwater and then do a water change that would have the same effect right?(corals uptaking the calcium carbonate while leaving behind the sodium chloride). The solution is to run a calcium reactor (which I hope to implement soon)

A perfectly designed two part has exactly the right elements (major, minor and trace) to exactly offset the salinity rise and necessary dilution. It is what ESV b-ionic claims, for example.

in actuality, the effect is much more important for Major and minor elements such as potassium or sulfate where this might be a major sink, compared to trace elements where this effect is likely much smaller than actual consumption.

 

[jlts21]

Right. But with my original question. If for example someone is running elevated params (alk, cal, mg) and need to dose a 2 part regardless of what 2 part they choose. If they dose into the mixed saltwater to match the tank before doing a water change will the same effect happen just like dosing directly into the tank?

 

[W1ngz]

Youre asking if you can just dose your weekly additives into a water change in advance rather than into the tank during the week over time?

A dose is a dose as long as it ends up in the tank, but the point of dosing is to maintain levels over time instead of having to do weekly corrections and letting the parameters rollercoaster constantly.

 

[jlts21]

Youre asking if you can just dose your weekly additives into a water change in advance rather than into the tank during the week over time?

A dose is a dose as long as it ends up in the tank, but the point of dosing is to maintain levels over time instead of having to do weekly corrections and letting the parameters rollercoaster constantly.

Never mind, I’m clearly not getting my point across with what I’m trying to ask...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Right. But with my original question. If for example someone is running elevated params (alk, cal, mg) and need to dose a 2 part regardless of what 2 part they choose. If they dose into the mixed saltwater to match the tank before doing a water change will the same effect happen just like dosing directly into the tank?

yes, assuming you do that same water change.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Right. But with my original question. If for example someone is running elevated params (alk, cal, mg) and need to dose a 2 part regardless of what 2 part they choose. If they dose into the mixed saltwater to match the tank before doing a water change will the same effect happen just like dosing directly into the tank?

I would add, though, that doing water changes with a mix that exactly matches the tank cannot, by itself, maintain those parameters unless you change 100% daily. Otherwise there must be a slow steady decline.

 

[jlts21]

I would add, though, that doing water changes with a mix that exactly matches the tank cannot, by itself, maintain those parameters unless you change 100% daily. Otherwise there must be a slow steady decline.

I'm currently dosing, but am going to switch over to a calc reactor. So I need to either 1.) quit dosing altogether and let the tank run at Tropic Marin pro reef parameters (which I don't really want to do. I'd like to stay a 9dkh, 450ppm and 1440mg) or 2.) dose the water change water to match the higher levels. I'm already looking into switching to something else to dose so that I do not have the "diluted trace elements" issue

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm currently dosing, but am going to switch over to a calc reactor. So I need to either 1.) quit dosing altogether and let the tank run at Tropic Marin pro reef parameters (which I don't really want to do. I'd like to stay a 9dkh, 450ppm and 1440mg) or 2.) dose the water change water to match the higher levels. I'm already looking into switching to something else to dose so that I do not have the "diluted trace elements" issue

I don’t understand the problem, but there is nothing wrong with dosing up a salt mix to match those parameters.

 

[jlts21]

If I dose calcium chloride and sodium carbonate to a new batch of saltwater then when I do a water change the sodium chloride will still be left over and increase the salinity after its in the tank

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If I dose calcium chloride and sodium carbonate to a new batch of saltwater then when I do a water change the sodium chloride will still be left over and increase the salinity after its in the tank

If you use a two part like B-ionic, there is not depression effect on the other ions because it adds them exactly to balance that effect.

if you use just sodium carbonate and calcium chloride, it will depress them no matter how you add them. If you do regular water changes the effect is not so concerning. If you do not, then it is more likely an issue, especially for major ions like potassium.

 

[W1ngz]

If I dose calcium chloride and sodium carbonate to a new batch of saltwater then when I do a water change the sodium chloride will still be left over and increase the salinity after its in the tank

It's not the simple presence of those two things in the water that has an effect on the salinity. It's all about the calcification within the corals. If you choose to bump up any specific parameters of the mix before adding it to the tank, then it won't have any effect on the overall content of NaCl in the water. That happens as the corals build skeleton, where the NaCl (plain old salt) is simply the combination of elements unused by the corals.

If you don't like the parameters of that salt mix, then perhaps the better option would be to choose one that more closely matches your targets. Any dosing or calc reactor would be doing no more or no less than replacing what the corals are removing from the water.

 

[jlts21]

I use TM pro reef and I’d like to stick with it because of the quality of it. I think I’m either going to just go to the parameters that it is at and let the cal reactor maintain those levels or dose the new saltwater with something that will not raise the salinity once the corals start to use the elements to build their skeleton. Or is the whole “salinity rises, add RODI to bring it down which then dilutes the trace elements” blown out of proportion by Lou Ekus?

 

[W1ngz]

I don't think it's blown out of proportion at all. What he shares is presented factually and thoroughly. I learned a lot on the lower level chemistry happening in my tank when I saw it the first time. You'd have to let things go for a long time with nothing other than basic 2-part dosing and top off water to actually have a measurable difference in NaCl.

 

[W1ngz]

Keep in mind also the relative ratios of salt (NaCl) to the other elements you're familiar with.

NaCl is something on the order of 30,000 ppm, compared to Calcium at ~420ppm and magnesium at ~1300. The small amounts of NaCl produced in calcification is going to be very minor in relation to the rest. Since the salinity of seawater is the measure of dissolved solids (not just the NaCl), your refractometer isn't going to know the difference anyway.

 

[jlts21]

well I’m more concerned with the trace elements depleting not the salinity rising, but think I’m just overthinking the whole process. At 17:45 in the video that Larry posted he talks about what my concern is

 

[W1ngz]

He says it's an inherent problem with the 2-part method, and that's true if your 2-part is only 2 parts. I get the sense that his percentages are somewhat exaggerated to make it more digestible for the audience with nice big round numbers. You won't jump from a 70-30 ratio to 80-20 in a week, and no one is pouring gallons of RODI into their tank to reset their salinity because of their 2-part dosing.

If you're that concerned about it, then use a more complete solution than just the BRS 2-part with only 2 components. B-ionic, aquaforest and others all have their take on the Balling method which keeps everything balanced.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

well I’m more concerned with the trace elements depleting not the salinity rising, but think I’m just overthinking the whole process. At 17:45 in the video that Larry posted he talks about what my concern is

if trace elements suppression is a big concern, use a two part like ESV B-ionic which won’t do that because it adds them.