Could my pistol shrimp have given its goby brain damage??

[liddojunior]

I don’t think he would get that malnourished in a few days.

Im betting by the other goby boisterous attitude he wasn’t letting that goby feed.

I don’t think it’s pistol shrimp fault. They are used to going into hiding in the burrow. In the wild them hiding out inside the burrow for a while would be common.

im thinking this is much more just malnutrition. Unless the pistol shrimps actually inflicted dmg to its head but you’d see a wound.

As long as he doesn’t get sick of anything else you can nurture it back to health with little meals throughout the day. I’m thinking atleast 3 times a day if not more. Remember small meals. Use garlicguard to make the food more enticing. And buy some live pods too

I would put a tube in the hospital box to make sure it isn’t stressed and can hide away. Right now it’s not going to eat because it’s no longer feels safe and now feels exposed.

 

[jabberwock]

Give the fish a chance. If it is safe in the hospital box it is not being tortured. I don't see any point in euthanasia at this point. Keep pampering it. It may turn for the better, it may not make it. The lesson here ( I believe, with respect) is that housing multiples of similar fish types leads to competition and likely unobserved aggression.

I think I would hang tight and see what happens.

 

[jabberwock]

I don’t think he would get that malnourished in a few days.

Im betting by the other goby boisterous attitude he wasn’t letting that goby feed.

I don’t think it’s pistol shrimp fault. They are used to going into hiding in the burrow. In the wild them hiding out inside the burrow for a while would be common.

im thinking this is much more just malnutrition. Unless the pistol shrimps actually inflicted dmg to its head but you’d see a wound.

As long as he doesn’t get sick of anything else you can nurture it back to health with little meals throughout the day. I’m thinking atleast 3 times a day if not more. Remember small meals. Use garlicguard to make the food more enticing. And buy some live pods too

I would put a tube in the hospital box to make sure it isn’t stressed and can hide away. Right now it’s not going to eat because it’s no longer feels safe and now feels exposed.

Agree, small piece of clean PVC pipe for cover.

 

[C4ctus99]

Give the fish a chance. If it is safe in the hospital box it is not being tortured. I don't see any point in euthanasia at this point. Keep pampering it. It may turn for the better, it may not make it. The lesson here ( I believe, with respect) is that housing multiples of similar fish types leads to competition and likely unobserved aggression.

I think I would hang tight and see what happens.

Second this, fish can be resilient

 

[vetteguy53081]

I guess nobody's interested in this topic. Well, just in case someone at some point has this issue id like to add an update.
It has been several more days and my goby is still alive in the tiny hospital box . I have been puffing food in its face several times a day hoping a little gets in its mouth. And i do think a little has gotten in there. And I really do think it has a concussion or brain damage. Either from lack of oxygen when it was buried or the snap from the shrimp. It just seems to not be able to control its ability to eat or swim correctly. And just kind of floats on its side until i put the baster tip in there. My big issue now is.. do i continue to feed him and let him live this way? Or do i just pull him out and let him die quickly. I let him out for a few hours to see if he could live semi normally, but he just gets moved around by the current and randomly swims to move itself every so often. Does not try to eat on its own. Im afraid my emerald crab will get him because hes pretty much like a dead fish floating around the tank., so hes back in the hospital box now.

Utilize acclimation box, try feeding it within the box, but this fish was capable of breaking down these sand entrapments and appears too weak to accomplish this. Based on loss of weight, fish may have internal issues starting to feed off it’s liver or even a neurological issue
Video May be of more help with assessing any noticeable issues
Could pistol inflict a substantial injury- yes

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Get ready for a long story. Ive got alot to say.
So, I have a pair of two teeny candycane pistol shrimps( only like an inch long) that lived together with my small dracula goby( only like 2 inches long). They made a great team and my dracula goby was very healthy and fiesty. The problem happened when my pinkbar goby (extremely friendly, but 3 times the dracula gobies size), she decided she wanted those shrimp buddies for her tank mates. She was extremely friendly, each day getting closer, just hanging out by their entrance like she was begging to be a part of it. No aggression, no fighting. But the shrimp would just snap at her and it did not seem to phase her in the least. The shrimp started building sand to cover the entrance from all sides. And the pinkbar just laid there pressed up against the entrance. I did not see the shrimps or my dracula goby for 2 and a half days. Not even for feeding time. But i would hear several snaps each night after lights out. At the 2 1/2 day mark, i was surprised to see the shrimps uncovering the opening and before the day was out the pinkbar backed into it and was excepted. Now the pinkbar goby was in the hole right along with the shrimps ! I was so excited, i hoped theyd all be in their, but i searched all day for the dracula goby. Well,...Later that evening, i saw the shrimps digging out more sand and my dracula goby wobbled out looking daised and confused and belly sunkin!! My poor little guy! It had apparently been buried all this time waiting and relying on the shrimps to uncover it! He did not want anything to do with that hole and moved away from it right away. Even thought the pinkbar and the shrimps were all chill and fine having him there. He did not move much all day and would not eat. I even used a baster and puffed food right on his face. It has been two more days and he just seems to drift around the aquarium clearly alive but seems to be brain damaged or something. He doesnt take in any food . In my concerns that he will die i put him in my tiny nem box so i can repeatedly try to feed him but still no eating. . So, what i cant figure out, is if all that snapping toward the pinkbar affected him or could it just be that he was buried? He really seems to have brain damage and cant stay upright too easily. Im so heartbroken. He was my favorite. And all i can do is watch him slowly starve to death. Because he doesnt seem to know how to eat. Its like he trys to lunge at the baster almost like he wants it, but doesnt know how to eat it. has this happened to anyone else?

Sorry to hear about the goby. Although possible I suppose, the sunken belly more likely indicates that the goby's behavior is linked to malnutrition, not an acute injury from a snapping shrimp.

If you do decide to euthanize it, here is some text that I wrote on that topic:

Euthanasia

Euthanasia is a word derived from two Greek words that roughly translates to “good death”. In other words, euthanasia is the painless killing of an organism. In general usage, there is also the underlying understanding that euthanasia is performed on terminal patients only. This however, is not always the case with aquarium animals. Euthanasia may be performed as a population management tool, or for scientific research. Sometimes the phrase “humane euthanasia” is used, but that is redundant, as the lack of pain means the process is humane.

In this era of quick fixes and immediate gratification, it can be difficult for aquarists to understand that some fish diseases are simply not going to respond to any medication or treatment provided. Some ailing fishes, especially those with chronic diseases, simply cannot be cured and are in fact, slowly dying. Once they reach the point of being “moribund” (not able to feed or swim normally) euthanasia should be considered as a humane alternative to continued unsuccessful treatments.

Do fish feel pain?
Some research has indicated that fish do feel pain, while other studies show that they don’t. The true answer probably lies somewhere in-between; fish do feel an avoidance to adverse stimulus, but it isn’t “conscious pain” as seen in mammals. Termed “Nociception”, this is an animal’s nervous system's response to potentially harmful stimuli. Nociception triggers a variety of physiological and behavioral responses and usually results in a subjective experience of pain in sentient beings. It is less clear how fish and invertebrates receive nociception; is it felt as classical pain, or does it simply create an avoidance response in the animal? Since it is better to err on the side of caution, so euthanasia (painless death) is the most humane option.

Whatever degree of pain or physical discomfort fish experience, it can be argued that allowing chronically ill fish to continue suffering from any major nociception is ethically questionable.

When is euthanasia warranted?

Euthanasia should be considered for a fish if:

1) It has a chronic, untreatable disease (such as tumors, blindness, or starvation)
2) The fish is “moribund” due to severe injury or illness.
3) In some cases, euthanasia is considered necessary for population management reasons. For the sake of argument, let’s say that a population of an endangered species is being managed for conservation purposes, and there is an issue where if the male/female ratio becomes skewed, and increased numbers of one sex (often the males) will disrupt the integrity of the whole population. In that case, it may be best to euthanize the surplus males in order to better preserve the genetic diversity of the entire population.

The American Veterinary Medical Association have their 2020 euthanasia guidelines posted online at https://www.avma.org/KB/Policies/Documents/euthanasia.pdf

Preferred methods for euthanasia

MS-222
Every aquarist should have a plan for specimen euthanasia before they need to employ it. An overdose of buffered Tricaine methane sulfonate (MS-222) is the preferred method for euthanizing fish. Dosing at a rate of greater than 300 mg/l MS-222 along with 300 mg/l sodium bicarbonate is effective for euthanizing fish within 30 minutes. However, MS-222 is expensive, and not readily available in smaller quantities to home aquarists. Removing the fish too soon from the solution may allow it to recover. It is therefore suggested to leave the fish in a small amount of the euthanizing solution, and freeze it for later disposal.

Clove oil (eugenol)
One product that aquarists can buy that is approved by at least some veterinarians and research biologists is clove oil, also called eugenol. A dose of 50 mg/l is usually sufficient in euthanizing fish. This equates to about 0.20 ml of eugenol in one gallon of aquarium water.

Because eugenol does not mix well with water, and because larger volumes are easier for hobbyists to measure out, it can be dosed using the following method:

1) Add 2 ml of eugenol to 100 ml of tank water in a sealed container and shake it vigorously.

2) Add 10 ml of this suspended solution to each gallon of water needed to euthanize the fish.

3) Place the fish in this solution and keep it covered to prevent it from jumping out and to help keep it calm.

4) Wait at least twenty minutes after it stops breathing, and then remove the fish from the solution and freeze it for later disposal.


Other methods
A variety of other methods have been proposed for the euthanasia of fishes, but none are fully accepted by veterinary experts. Still, home aquarists need more common tools to use, so those methods are listed here in roughly descending order of suitability:

Ethanol
Regular alcohol at a dose of 25 ml per liter will cause respiratory collapse and death in fishes within 30 minutes. The trouble is that alcohol is not available in pure form unless it has been “denatured” by the addition of distasteful chemicals such as turpentine. Vodka is about 40% alcohol by volume, so using it 62 ml per liter will give an effective dose.

Decapitation/pithing
Cutting a fish’s spinal cord, right behind the head, is a quick method of euthanasia that is approved for use in food fishes (where the use of chemicals would otherwise make the flesh unfit to eat). The issue is really that the method is distasteful for most people to do, so it is rarely used by aquarists. However, it is quick and effective.

Freezing
Placing the affected fish in a small amount of aquarium water in a sealed container and then placing the container in a freezer is a euthanasia technique used by some people. However, it is slow to work, so it is not considered humane. Its appeal as a method is that the fish is “out of sight” so people feel more detached from the process.


An option of last resort
The animals in your aquariums are completely reliant on you for proper care. It is your responsibility to see to it that their lives in captivity are humane as possible and that all of their needs are met. If you cannot meet their needs, please find someone who is more able. Euthanasia should be considered only for health reasons, not because it is no longer convenient to care for an animal.

Jay

 

[Cell]

I guess next time ill just add more pictures..... For the.. non.. readers.
I happen to enjoy reading other peoples stories. In my defense, the very first line says..... (get ready for a long story). At that point you could decide if you feel like reading it or not. P.S. this is only my second post. Thanks for the warm welcome.

There are lots of helpful people on this forum, but also consider the time spent sorting through a long post for the salient info takes up time that could otherwise be spent continuing to help others and can also make it easy to miss important details.

 

[fodsod]

You might try taking the fish out and giving it a soak in methylene blue. I've had a few fish over the years show unusual behavior or seem "off" and treated them with a 10 minute soak in aquarium water and methylene blue mix once daily for a few days in a row in a small hospital aquarium I set up temporarily. Now that is after I ruled out any obvious injuries or parasites.

It may not help at all but I see all my fish as pets so I'll try anything I can to help them be healthy and get better. Good luck.

 

[62518161]

There are lots of helpful people on this forum, but also consider the time spent sorting through a long post for the salient info takes up time that could otherwise be spent continuing to help others and can also make it easy to miss important details.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I guess next time ill just add more pictures..... For the.. non.. readers.
I happen to enjoy reading other peoples stories…

It was not the length of the posts that they were referring to. The poorly delivered suggestion was to break your long posts up into organized paragraphs. You will likely get more readers and responses that way. People tend to skip huge walls of text that are not broken into paragraphs.

Sorry, I can‘t offer any insight into your fish issue. Hopefully @Jay Hemdal or somebody can at least offer suggestions.

 

[62518161]

It was not the length of the posts that they were referring to. The poorly delivered suggestion was to break your long posts up into organized paragraphs. You will likely get more readers and responses that way. People tend to skip huge walls of text that are not broken into paragraphs.

Sorry, I can‘t offer any insight into your fish issue. Hopefully @Jay Hemdal or somebody can at least offer suggestions.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Nice contributions
Grow up

 

[62518161]

Grow up

I’m 53 years old with a 6th grade education. It’s very hurtful pointing out periods and paragraphs. I put periods where i think I should. Forget about paragraphs. I find it hard to believe people don’t know what op was saying because of periods and paragraphs. Again I’ve got a 6th grade education and I understood everything op posted. If people can’t understand what op typed just move on.

 

[gbroadbridge]

I’m 53 years old with a 6th grade education. It’s very hurtful pointing out periods and paragraphs. I put periods where i think I should. Forget about paragraphs. I find it hard to believe people don’t know what op was saying because of periods and paragraphs. Again I’ve got a 6th grade education and I understood everything op posted. If people can’t understand what op typed just move on.

So instead of just moving on, you go decide to be a big hero.

 

[Ariel'sMom]

Im thinking it was mostly due to lack of oxygen from being buried under there so long. But thanks. Still sad. He was so healthy and a vibrant addition to my tank. Again,Thanks

I also enjoyed the details of your poor fish’s plight. I’m new to this hobby and learn alot through other people. So please keep us informed of how you little guy makes out.

 

[62518161]

So instead of just moving on, you go decide to be a big hero.

Yes.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I’m 53 years old with a 6th grade education. It’s very hurtful pointing out periods and paragraphs. I put periods where i think I should. Forget about paragraphs. I find it hard to believe people don’t know what op was saying because of periods and paragraphs. Again I’ve got a 6th grade education and I understood everything op posted. If people can’t understand what op typed just move on.

The posting advice given to her could have been delivered in a much better way as an aside with advice about her issue. All you did was jump in here to take pot shots at others.

You speak of being kind and ignoring rude people and what is hurtful, yet the bulk of your posts here are snarky gifs or short quips directed toward clowning others. You do exactly what you are complaining about the responder doing. The glass houses thing….

In your haste to explain your maturity and reading skills you missed the whole point. That is that people tend to skip large passages instead of bothering to read them In the first place. It had nothing to do with inability to understand her words.

My advice stands. Grow up.

 

[62518161]

The posting advice given to her could have been delivered in a much better way as an aside with advice about her issue. All you did was jump in here to take pot shots at others.

You speak of being kind and ignoring rude people and what is hurtful, yet the bulk of your posts here are snarky gifs or short quips directed toward clowning others. You do exactly what you are complaining about the responder doing. The glass houses thing….

In your haste to explain your maturity and reading skills you missed the whole point. That is that people tend to skip large passages instead of bothering to read them In the first place. It had nothing to do with inability to understand her words.

My advice stands. Grow up.

I need no advice from you. Thanks anyway.

 

[jabberwock]

There is nothing wrong with your posts juju. Bunch of amateur English teachers on here...

 

[Juju2773]

Sorry to hear about the goby. Although possible I suppose, the sunken belly more likely indicates that the goby's behavior is linked to malnutrition, not an acute injury from a snapping shrimp.

If you do decide to euthanize it, here is some text that I wrote on that topic:

Euthanasia

Euthanasia is a word derived from two Greek words that roughly translates to “good death”. In other words, euthanasia is the painless killing of an organism. In general usage, there is also the underlying understanding that euthanasia is performed on terminal patients only. This however, is not always the case with aquarium animals. Euthanasia may be performed as a population management tool, or for scientific research. Sometimes the phrase “humane euthanasia” is used, but that is redundant, as the lack of pain means the process is humane.

In this era of quick fixes and immediate gratification, it can be difficult for aquarists to understand that some fish diseases are simply not going to respond to any medication or treatment provided. Some ailing fishes, especially those with chronic diseases, simply cannot be cured and are in fact, slowly dying. Once they reach the point of being “moribund” (not able to feed or swim normally) euthanasia should be considered as a humane alternative to continued unsuccessful treatments.

Do fish feel pain?
Some research has indicated that fish do feel pain, while other studies show that they don’t. The true answer probably lies somewhere in-between; fish do feel an avoidance to adverse stimulus, but it isn’t “conscious pain” as seen in mammals. Termed “Nociception”, this is an animal’s nervous system's response to potentially harmful stimuli. Nociception triggers a variety of physiological and behavioral responses and usually results in a subjective experience of pain in sentient beings. It is less clear how fish and invertebrates receive nociception; is it felt as classical pain, or does it simply create an avoidance response in the animal? Since it is better to err on the side of caution, so euthanasia (painless death) is the most humane option.

Whatever degree of pain or physical discomfort fish experience, it can be argued that allowing chronically ill fish to continue suffering from any major nociception is ethically questionable.

When is euthanasia warranted?

Euthanasia should be considered for a fish if:

1) It has a chronic, untreatable disease (such as tumors, blindness, or starvation)
2) The fish is “moribund” due to severe injury or illness.
3) In some cases, euthanasia is considered necessary for population management reasons. For the sake of argument, let’s say that a population of an endangered species is being managed for conservation purposes, and there is an issue where if the male/female ratio becomes skewed, and increased numbers of one sex (often the males) will disrupt the integrity of the whole population. In that case, it may be best to euthanize the surplus males in order to better preserve the genetic diversity of the entire population.

The American Veterinary Medical Association have their 2020 euthanasia guidelines posted online at https://www.avma.org/KB/Policies/Documents/euthanasia.pdf

Preferred methods for euthanasia

MS-222
Every aquarist should have a plan for specimen euthanasia before they need to employ it. An overdose of buffered Tricaine methane sulfonate (MS-222) is the preferred method for euthanizing fish. Dosing at a rate of greater than 300 mg/l MS-222 along with 300 mg/l sodium bicarbonate is effective for euthanizing fish within 30 minutes. However, MS-222 is expensive, and not readily available in smaller quantities to home aquarists. Removing the fish too soon from the solution may allow it to recover. It is therefore suggested to leave the fish in a small amount of the euthanizing solution, and freeze it for later disposal.

Clove oil (eugenol)
One product that aquarists can buy that is approved by at least some veterinarians and research biologists is clove oil, also called eugenol. A dose of 50 mg/l is usually sufficient in euthanizing fish. This equates to about 0.20 ml of eugenol in one gallon of aquarium water.

Because eugenol does not mix well with water, and because larger volumes are easier for hobbyists to measure out, it can be dosed using the following method:

1) Add 2 ml of eugenol to 100 ml of tank water in a sealed container and shake it vigorously.

2) Add 10 ml of this suspended solution to each gallon of water needed to euthanize the fish.

3) Place the fish in this solution and keep it covered to prevent it from jumping out and to help keep it calm.

4) Wait at least twenty minutes after it stops breathing, and then remove the fish from the solution and freeze it for later disposal.


Other methods
A variety of other methods have been proposed for the euthanasia of fishes, but none are fully accepted by veterinary experts. Still, home aquarists need more common tools to use, so those methods are listed here in roughly descending order of suitability:

Ethanol
Regular alcohol at a dose of 25 ml per liter will cause respiratory collapse and death in fishes within 30 minutes. The trouble is that alcohol is not available in pure form unless it has been “denatured” by the addition of distasteful chemicals such as turpentine. Vodka is about 40% alcohol by volume, so using it 62 ml per liter will give an effective dose.

Decapitation/pithing
Cutting a fish’s spinal cord, right behind the head, is a quick method of euthanasia that is approved for use in food fishes (where the use of chemicals would otherwise make the flesh unfit to eat). The issue is really that the method is distasteful for most people to do, so it is rarely used by aquarists. However, it is quick and effective.

Freezing
Placing the affected fish in a small amount of aquarium water in a sealed container and then placing the container in a freezer is a euthanasia technique used by some people. However, it is slow to work, so it is not considered humane. Its appeal as a method is that the fish is “out of sight” so people feel more detached from the process.


An option of last resort
The animals in your aquariums are completely reliant on you for proper care. It is your responsibility to see to it that their lives in captivity are humane as possible and that all of their needs are met. If you cannot meet their needs, please find someone who is more able. Euthanasia should be considered only for health reasons, not because it is no longer convenient to care for an animal.

Jay

Hi Jay,
Thanks for the response. My goby finally passed on his own today. He was very healthy before, eating well and very healthy. I truly believe he got brain damage from the shrimp snaps, combined with being buried 3 days, lack of oxygen and not eating that weakened him.
Either way, Im sad he's gone, but happy i didnt have to bring myself to put him to a final sleep.
Thanks again for the useful info.