Dealing with the uglies

[Neuratox]

Hey all. I'm not particularly new to the hobby (2 years experience), but I've only set up two tanks before and wanted to look for insight on how to best establish the current tank. I'm working on a red sea reefer xl300 using marco's dry rock. The tank was stared on 9/26/2020. It was cycled using microbacter xlm, dr tims one and only, and microbacter 7 with ammonia from Dr. Tim's. Multiple bacterial cultures listed above were used to increase microbial diversity and provide a larger initial population. Cycling was complete (0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 5ppm nitrate) by 10/19/2020 when 3 ignitus anthias were added. Turned on the skimmer at this point (runs wet, emptied and cleaned weekly) and added filter and mesh socks (changed weekly). Still performing 10% weekly water changes. Two weeks later I transferred two clowns from my old tank to this one. Lights were turned on about 10/26/2020 and are two AI 32s run using David Saxby's settings. Tank reads 0, 0, 0 for the last 2 weeks. This is likely due to the appearance of algae, diatoms, and cyano. Once these showed up (two weeks ago) I added in quarantined chaetomorpha and switched on a tunze fuge light on a oppositing night cycle. I also added the cleanup crew at this point - about 15 nerite snails of various sizes, 30 small cereith snails, 10 small nassarius snails, 10 baby trochus (useless but cute), 3 astrea, and 2 hermit crabs (I hate these *#$&!). I would have more but shipment from reef cleaners was delayed by a day in cold weather by fedex, half the order was dead and was not pleased with customer service on shippers end though I've used him exclusively. Currently looking for new supplier.

I am using sand (not live), but seeded with sand from my established tank (2 years old). Unsurprisingly, this is where the algae, diatoms, and cyano started and radiated outward from. Sand is 2 inches deep in most areas with a 3-4 inch deep section in a corner that is intended for a yellow coris wrasse in the future. Water turnover rate is 15x via return and two reefwave 25s create turbulant flow throughout the tank with a focal point that changes throughout the day.

With all of that said... I've not dealt with the uglies successfully in a long time. What I'm looking for are tips on how to successfully manage the algae, diatoms, and cyano with my current setup. I'd like to try to avoid any extra equipment at this time, but would like input on livestock to add, techniques to try, or if I should just let it do its thing. Its probably worth mentioning that I'm opposed to getting temporary inhabitants. These creatures have enough to go through when ordered and put in my tank, the stress of doing that again and again isn't a life that I want to subject them to personally. Additionally this is going to be a tank stocked with entirely peaceful fish (my clowns are incredibly well behaved) and while a mixed reef is going to be acro dominant.

I look forward to any insights or suggestions on how to proceed.

Cheers and thanks!

 

[Spare time]

With cyano, try to keep phosphates on the lower end and nitrates above 0. You can always do chemiclean. Diatoms will go away on there own so long as you don't use tap water frequently. For the ugly phase, you can always try something like dr tims waste away gel (or liquid) to steadily combat algae by providing competition. You can also run the tank without lights if there is ambient light for the fish.


PS cool rock scaping

 

[Neuratox]

With cyano, try to keep phosphates on the lower end and nitrates above 0. You can always do chemiclean. Diatoms will go away on there own so long as you don't use tap water frequently. For the ugly phase, you can always try something like dr tims waste away gel (or liquid) to steadily combat algae by providing competition. You can also run the tank without lights if there is ambient light for the fish.


PS cool rock scaping

I'll definitely look into Dr Tim's waste away. To my understanding this is bacterial. And much more keen on the idea of using that rather than chemicals. I'll certainly be trying to stay on top of the phosphates. I'm hoping the refugium helps to take care of a large part of that. I can't remember why I want to keep the nitrates above zero though. Does this have something to do with bacterial populations out competing the cyano?

I definitely should have added earlier that I use a three-stage RODI.

Thanks! It took me well over 24 hours of solid work spread out over the period of two weeks to construct this reefscape.

 

[shred5]

It is just normal with with a new tank and dead rock. I went through this with my reefer 250 and it took months and it got bad. Now there is not a spot. I am going through this right now with two other tanks.

Here is the thing turning out light or using chemi clean does not take care of the problem.

If the problem is not taken care of it will come back or another algae will take it place eventually. Cyno is common and in pretty much in everyone's tank.

A little cyano is natural and part of the bio diversity, it can help combat dinos in my opinion. The problem is when it takes over and their is to much.

Tuning the lights out and Chemi clean or any other erythromycin just kills it temporarily and once reintroduced it will just thrive again or the problem will build and you could get something worse if not taken care of.

Erythromycin also does not just kill cyano it can kill other bacteria that also could combat cyano and other algae..

You have to find the problem. Usually it is built up organics, phosphate or bound phosphates.

I find persistent cyano could be phosphates that bound to sand or live rock. Calcium carbonate can bind phosphates when they are high. Sometime this can register as low phosphate because it being bound when in actuality they can be high.


New Tanks:

Bound phosphates need to be released and this can take time and is the most common in new tanks. With new tanks just blow it off and catch as much as possible. Siphoned it out from time to time and eventually it will go away. Running phosphate remover can help speed it up.

With dead rock there really is nothing on it and every inch can be colonized by something and usually it is something bad first. Bacteria additives can help too. When setting up a new tank the lights are out for a while and I add bacteria and let that settle and then add light.

 

[Neuratox]

It is just normal with with a new tank and dead rock. I went through this with my reefer 250 and it took months and it got bad. Now there is not a spot. I am going through this right now with two other tanks.

Here is the thing turning out light or using chemi clean does not take care of the problem.

If the problem is not taken care of it will come back or another algae will take it place eventually. Cyno is common and in pretty much in everyone's tank.

A little cyano is natural and part of the bio diversity, it can help combat dinos in my opinion. The problem is when it takes over and their is to much.

Tuning the lights out and Chemi clean or any other erythromycin just kills it temporarily and once reintroduced it will just thrive again or the problem will build and you could get something worse if not taken care of.

Erythromycin also does not just kill cyano it can kill other bacteria that also could combat cyano and other algae..

You have to find the problem. Usually it is built up organics, phosphate or bound phosphates.

I find persistent cyano could be phosphates that bound to sand or live rock. Calcium carbonate can bind phosphates when they are high. Sometime this can register as low phosphate because it being bound when in actuality they can be high.

Bound phosphates need to be released and this can take time and is the most common in new tanks. with new tanks just blow it off and catch as much as possible. Siphoned it out from time to time and eventually it will go away. Running phosphate remover can help speed it up.

This is incredibly helpful. Currently I'm running carbon in a mini reactor. Would it be better to replace this with something that removes phosphate?

 

[burningmime]

(following)

 

[shred5]

This is incredibly helpful. Currently I'm running carbon in a mini reactor. Would it be better to replace this with something that removes phosphate?

By the way I added some more info. I was still editing the post after you quoted me.

Yea I like to run a little GFO. It just takes patients..

This is my Reefer 250 after the uglies. Everything was covered even the back glass and the bottom.
It started with brown diatoms than green cyano and finally red.

Oh snails helped too..

th br

 

[Neuratox]

By the way I added some more info. I was still editing the post after you quoted me.

Yea I like to run a little GFO. It just takes patients..

This is my Reefer 250 after the uglies. Everything was covered even the back glass and the bottom.
It started with brown diatoms than green cyano and finally red.

Oh snails helped too..

th br

Yeah, that's very nice and very clean. I sometimes wonder if the presence of coralline algae also helps to negate/reduce problems. I don't know if I personally ever seen hair algae growing on rock that's covered in coralline.

 

[shred5]

Yeah, that's very nice and very clean. I sometimes wonder if the presence of coralline algae also helps to negate/reduce problems. I don't know if I personally ever seen hair algae growing on rock that's covered in coralline.

Most type of biodiversity can help, coralline certainly can. They all compete for space and nutrients. Bacteria can be very important to help beat it. They will consume phosphate and nitrate.

 

[HuduVudu]

I use live rock and don't particularly worry about this phase. Just added live rock today to my new build. After as many builds as I have had I will always use live rock it is just so much easier. More pics on my build thread if you are interested. Plus you can see my small reef that I used African rock on.

 

[Neuratox]

I use live rock and don't particularly worry about this phase. Just added live rock today to my new build. After as many builds as I have had I will always use live rock it is just so much easier. More pics on my build thread if you are interested. Plus you can see my small reef that I used African rock on.

I know there are still a lot of people that swear by live rock. I think the shapes are really cool especially the ones in your tank over to the far right. You simply can't get that kind of thing as dry rock, at least not to my knowledge. However, my fear is always the hitchhikers. My previous tank was started the same way as this one with everything being dry. simply adding in coral early on in the process before I knew what to properly inspect for resulted in the early introduction of aptasia and vermitid snails. By the time I recognized what things were it was far too late. Given that those things came on simply on a frag or perhaps the shell of a snail is what has stopped me from using live rock in the current build. Is there a particular way that you have found to mitigate these risks?

 

[KrisReef]

Lights out on the DT.
Let the chaeto work on the nutrients. Turn the fuge light on 18 hours /day and measure No3 /P as you go. Chart your numbers over the coming weeks and then you will have a reason to add GFO? Or maybe NO3? The numbers will tell you where this problem is coming from.

GFO may be the answer, NO3 additions (more feeding) to get what you have now working properly.
side note: do you have pods in this system?

observe, measure, respond. Adjust and repeat.

 

[wenliu51]

I second using Dr. Tim's Waste Away. I use the stick on gel (half the size recommended for the tank) and also use Dr. Tim's Eco-Balance (half dose after water changes). I had some major algae blooms after dosing copepods and phytoplankton and finally got mine under control

 

[Jeffcb]

This is my Reefer 250. Its been up for 2 months since setup. As soon as I started seeing the brown uglies I added a 18 watt UV filter and filled the Refugium. I have not had but a little patch or 2 since , knock on wood. Clean up crew has kept it in check. I think the UV has really helped.

 

[Neuratox]

Lights out on the DT.
Let the chaeto work on the nutrients. Turn the fuge light on 18 hours /day and measure No3 /P as you go. Chart your numbers over the coming weeks and then you will have a reason to add GFO? Or maybe NO3? The numbers will tell you where this problem is coming from.

GFO may be the answer, NO3 additions (more feeding) to get what you have now working properly.
side note: do you have pods in this system?

observe, measure, respond. Adjust and repeat.

Unfortunately I don't have any pods yet. I was hoping to order them from algae barn along with cheato but after weeks of waiting to get some I finally had to settle with another supplier. While the cheato was crawling with pods I did a fresh water and Bayer dip followed by a quarantine to make sure that I wasn't adding in any undesired hitchhikers. Thus in the process I lost all the pods. I do need to add some, do they make enough of an impact that I need to make this a priority?

 

[HuduVudu]

I know there are still a lot of people that swear by live rock. I think the shapes are really cool especially the ones in your tank over to the far right. You simply can't get that kind of thing as dry rock, at least not to my knowledge. However, my fear is always the hitchhikers. My previous tank was started the same way as this one with everything being dry. simply adding in coral early on in the process before I knew what to properly inspect for resulted in the early introduction of aptasia and vermitid snails. By the time I recognized what things were it was far too late. Given that those things came on simply on a frag or perhaps the shell of a snail is what has stopped me from using live rock in the current build. Is there a particular way that you have found to mitigate these risks?

Been dealing with live rock for years, so I have a pretty good catalog of which hitch hikers are no good.

For the rock I just put in, I am pulling all of the calerpa taxinoma out ... definitely a pest. Also saw a majano. Will aptasiaX him. I will be watching because he will for sure have friends. Will be listening for the clicks of mantis shrimp. There are possibly mantis eggs so this is a longer term process. Tonight after the lights go out I will be looking for crabs.

I think that the most important part of dealing with hitch hikers in live rock is to be proactive and know what to look for. The small amount of time that I deal with the bad guys is dwarfed by the absolute awesome biodiversity.

Some really awesome things that came in with this live rock ... Halemeda ... this has to be far and away my favorite algae. Slow growing and calcerous very very kewl. Brown macro algae. These are really nice macros they grow slow and very large. Bivalves ... great for filtering water. There are sponges and I hope they live but most likely they won't.

I will be putting up pics of the good and bad stuff on my build thread so people can see what really happens with live rock.

 

[Neuratox]

This is my Reefer 250. Its been up for 2 months since setup. As soon as I started seeing the brown uglies I added a 18 watt UV filter and filled the Refugium. I have not had but a little patch or 2 since , knock on wood. Clean up crew has kept it in check. I think the UV has really helped.

Great looking tank! From the photo it looks like everything is covered in coralline. Did you start with live rock?

That's a nice compact little UV light. Where did you pick it up from? Does it have an adjustable flow rate? I've certainly considered adding one of these especially since it will serve the purpose of aiding in the event of some outbreaks.

 

[Neuratox]

Been dealing with live rock for years, so I have a pretty good catalog of which hitch hikers are no good.

For the rock I just put in, I am pulling all of the calerpa taxinoma out ... definitely a pest. Also saw a majano. Will aptasiaX him. I will be watching because he will for sure have friends. Will be listening for the clicks of mantis shrimp. There are possibly mantis eggs so this is a longer term process. Tonight after the lights go out I will be looking for crabs.

I think that the most important part of dealing with hitch hikers in live rock is to be proactive and know what to look for. The small amount of time that I deal with the bad guys is dwarfed by the absolute awesome biodiversity.

Some really awesome things that came in with this live rock ... Halemeda ... this has to be far and away my favorite algae. Slow growing and calcerous very very kewl. Brown macro algae. These are really nice macros they grow slow and very large. Bivalves ... great for filtering water. There are sponges and I hope they live but most likely they won't.

I will be putting up pics of the good and bad stuff on my build thread so people can see what really happens with live rock.

This is neat to know. I guess I always assumed that when people buy and use live rock that they just throw it in. Its cool that it adds another dimension to the care and understanding along with interesting life. I'll be checking out the build thread. Thanks for the knowledge bomb!

 

[KrisReef]

From a biodiversity point of view, yes. Adding them is going in the right direction towards establishing a well balanced system. I don’t know how much they will help speed up the coming end of the ugly stage to say if they should be a right now priority, or wait a bit?

 

[Jeffcb]

Great looking tank! From the photo it looks like everything is covered in coralline. Did you start with live rock?

That's a nice compact little UV light. Where did you pick it up from? Does it have an adjustable flow rate? I've certainly considered adding one of these especially since it will serve the purpose of aiding in the event of some outbreaks.

Thanks. The rock is already Purple. Carib Sea Life Rock. I do have a couple little coralline encrusted live rocks but small. I did try Pink and Purple Fusion from Algae Barn and am seeing some specs on the back glass. As you said I think coralline is the key. Just takes a long time. UV is Coralife 18w. No adjustment on flow. Sicce 1.5 pump . Good luck, just takes time.