Dino ID + Treatment

[Poseidon03]

Good info thanks! I'm not sure this is uglies (see post above). But I will absolutely be dosing Silicates. I have a bottle of "Sponge Excel" on the way. The H2O2 dosing sounds really interesting, I'll look into that.

Not going to dose carbon again... The crazy thing, I was only dosing .4ml vodka for a few days, just to see how it affected the system.

What made you want to carbon dose (where were your nitrates and phosphates at before dosing). I wouldn't complete base it off of carbon dosing. I have been using bactobalance religiously for years and only time I got dinos was from lowering too fast or bottoming out when I was not using it.

 

[Mas0n]

Good info thanks! I'm not sure this is uglies (see post above). But I will absolutely be dosing Silicates. I have a bottle of "Sponge Excel" on the way. The H2O2 dosing sounds really interesting, I'll look into that.

Not going to dose carbon again... The crazy thing, I was only dosing .4ml vodka for a few days, just to see how it affected the system.

What made you want to carbon dose (where were your nitrates and phosphates at before dosing). I wouldn't complete base it off of carbon dosing. I have been using bactobalance religiously for years and only time I got dinos was from lowering too fast or bottoming out when I was not using it.

Right about 36 ppm. Nothing extreme but wanted to manage them before they got crazy.

The carbon dosing brought them down to 28~

 

[mcarroll]

I also got this really cool video of an Amoeba(?) eating a dino!

Solid evidence this is not really a dino bloom in the traditional sense (ie toxic tank wrecker).

Seems to me that your system is integrating them.

 

[ReefRob82]

The test if a dino can be treated by UV is really seeing if they disappear at night.

My quick google of Amphidinium dinos says that they do NOT go in to the water column, therefore would unfortunately be a poor candidate for this treatment.

Keep in mind when completing tactics to rid yourself of LCA, it’s also possible to get ostreopsis. This is my case anyway. A UV should be still a thought in case this happens. I’ve had LCA, then ostreopsis, then a mixture of LCA and SCA, all in the same tank at different stages lol.

 

[JonasRoman]

Hey R2R friends,

Welp… I got caught up chasing numbers and tried to lower my nitrate via vodka dosing and have instead caused a Dino outbreak.

My nutrient levels are currently elevated, and I’m no longer dosing vodka. .05 po4 and 33 ppm no3.

Here is what I found under the scope:

I am having a hard time distinguishing between Amphidinium and Prorocentrum. The little protrusions are not “beak like” as seen on the ID guide for Amphidinium and the body shape isn’t as point as many of the prorocentrum ID pictures I’ve seen.

The behavior matches Amphidinium in that they are only on the sand, not affecting coral/fish health and “retreat at night and slowly increase daily over the photo period.

Thoughts??

I’ve got some silicates and a test kit coming, along with some 1-5 micron socks to aid in manual removal.

Exactly which specimens other can tell better. But actually, it doesn't matter, its same treatment. Yes some of them are more reluctant to leave sandbed at night, and I have had such specimens. But, you can force also those to leave sandbed with blackout, and in that way get all Dinos to be targeted by the UVV independently of its specimen.
I have tested many times with different specimen and its always 100% working with "my" method
1) uvc strong enough. First calculate pump, then uvc wattage. Approx 2000l/h for a 500 litres. Thus turnover 4 times/hour. With 2000l/h you need at least 55w. The pump must be in display.
Install this together with:
2) total blackout 3 day
3) after 3 days remove black out
4) continue another 3 days with UV
5) remove UV and maybe dose beneficial bacteria

Jonas

 

[mcarroll]

2) total blackout 3 day

I consider blackouts to be bunk...but a mind can always be changed by the right evidence.

So just curious, are you able to state this from observation of cells in the water column during blackout that are never there during normal day/night lighting cycles, or is this partly supposition? I'm curious how you are sampling, if that's the case.

 

[JonasRoman]

I consider blackouts to be bunk...but a mind can always be changed by the right evidence.

So just curious, are you able to state this from observation of cells in the water column during blackout that are never there during normal day/night lighting cycles, or is this partly supposition? I'm curious how you are sampling, if that's the case.

Its not nonsense. Practical experience never lies. I have like all others struggled with dino for decades so I know exactly how it looks. But yes, I have a microscope and sometimes verified.
No, I havent collected cells from water column. Have anyone ??..not needed, its observational evidence that sand is getting charcoalwhite. Good enough to know that dino has left the sandbed as its very rich in pigment.
Black out solely doesnt help more than temporary. You must combine with proper UV. My success rate of this method is so far 100%. My success rate of all other methods (and I have tested everything last 20 years) is 0%.

Also,black out is harmless. Some may think its not, but surprisingly this is not a problem. A coral can manage with no light a few days. Again this is practical experience. Also, I have showed in a study I did that nutrients didn't change because of the blackout significantly during these 3 days, but it was due to dino dead.




Jonas

 

[mcarroll]

Its not nonsense. Practical experience never lies. I have like all others struggled with dino for decades so I know exactly how it looks. But yes, I have a microscope and sometimes verified.
No, I havent collected cells from water column. Have anyone ??..not needed, its observational evidence that sand is getting charcoalwhite. Good enough to know that dino has left the sandbed as its very rich in pigment.
Black out solely doesnt help more than temporary. You must combine with proper UV. My success rate of this method is so far 100%. My success rate of all other methods (and I have tested everything last 20 years) is 0%.

Also,black out is harmless. Some may think its not, but surprisingly this is not a problem. A coral can manage with no light a few days. Again this is practical experience. Also, I have showed in a study I did that nutrients didn't change because of the blackout significantly during these 3 days, but it was due to dino dead.




Jonas

Appologies, I should have elaborated. (You already saw my post elsewhere.)

In a typical dino case where the pods are dead, CUC is dead or dying, toxins are in the water and the corals are dead or dying, I do not ever recommend a blackout...mostly because they have never been a part of an observable solution, and the solution we have works very well without them. And due to the stress it might put on anything photosynthetic that might be trying to recover.

In a case like this thread (and the other thread), things are VERY different from a typical dino bloom. There's no apparent trouble in the tank in many or most cases....the "problem" is most aesthetic. In a case like this, there's no reason a blackout should be harmful. It should be fine to try.

 

[Mas0n]

Thanks for the tips!

I ran a few tests yesterday, sitting at .05ppm po4 and 25 no3. Going to feed more and dose some phosphate to bring my phosphate up closer to .1ppm as a buffer.

Still waiting on the silica, but I will dose that when it arrives.

Definitely not against UV, doing some research on what to buy and figuring out the best installation method for my setup. I planned to get one at some point anyway.

 

[EnterName]

Have anyone ?

I have. Plankton sieve 11µm shows Ostreopsis and "Amphidinium" even during the day in reasonable numbers. For Ostreopsis there is even literature on their day/night behavior which shows that it's not as binary as the community likes to claim (Pavaux et al. 2021). That's why I recommend UV regardless of the dinoflagellate ID.

Practical experience never lies.

I disagree with that statement though Anecdotal evidence is probably the culprit of misinformation in this community

 

[JonasRoman]

I have. Plankton sieve 11µm shows Ostreopsis and "Amphidinium" even during the day in reasonable numbers. For Ostreopsis there is even literature on their day/night behavior which shows that it's not as binary as the community likes to claim (Pavaux et al. 2021). That's why I recommend UV regardless of the dinoflagellate ID.


I disagree with that statement though Anecdotal evidence is probably the culprit of misinformation in this community

Nice
Experience never lies I mean, nature is always right. Just hard to get everything in explainabable theories. Like try to fit a square into a round hole.

 

[RobertK]

I havent collected cells from water column. Have anyone?

I have, just did it today in fact. Its easy and fun and I highly recommend it! I use a 25 micron kitchen sieve, pour 10-20 liters of water through it with a pitcher, then use a pipette to transfer a drop of water thats left in the bottom of the sieve on a micro slide with cover glass.

I'm currently dealing with ostreopsis and amphidinium dinoflagellates in my tank, today I used the above technique during lights on and later with lights off and saw roughly the same amount of ostreopsis both times. Can you tell which photo was taken during the day and which at night? (hint: I really didn't see much difference!) I've posted some other critters I've found the same way in the microscopy thread.

 

[JonasRoman]

I have, just did it today in fact. Its easy and fun and I highly recommend it! I use a 25 micron kitchen sieve, pour 10-20 liters of water through it with a pitcher, then use a pipette to transfer a drop of water thats left in the bottom of the sieve on a micro slide with cover glass.

I'm currently dealing with ostreopsis and amphidinium dinoflagellates in my tank, today I used the above technique during lights on and later with lights off and saw roughly the same amount of ostreopsis both times. Can you tell which photo was taken during the day and which at night? (hint: I really didn't see much difference!) I've posted some other critters I've found the same way in the microscopy thread.

Nice. We should remember that in a healthy tank with no signs of macrovisible dino, we always have some as its not a bad thing as long as they do not overtake the system. The zooxanthelle is a dinoflagelate, so I am not surprised you find some in the water column. I would only see this as an issue when we see it macroscopically as brown areas.

 

[JonasRoman]

Appologies, I should have elaborated. (You already saw my post elsewhere.)

In a typical dino case where the pods are dead, CUC is dead or dying, toxins are in the water and the corals are dead or dying, I do not ever recommend a blackout...mostly because they have never been a part of an observable solution, and the solution we have works very well without them. And due to the stress it might put on anything photosynthetic that might be trying to recover.

In a case like this thread (and the other thread), things are VERY different from a typical dino bloom. There's no apparent trouble in the tank in many or most cases....the "problem" is most aesthetic. In a case like this, there's no reason a blackout should be harmful. It should be fine to try.

Yes, agree (at least partial...), if the "disease" has gone that far so the corals are really suffering, maybe a black out is bad. But only maybe, because its more stressfull for a sick coral to get too much light than opposite, and its more stressful for a coral to prolonge the dino outbreak. Its like a patient, as long as the treatment is doing before "no point of return", the action improves the outcome.

So We maybe have a little different experience of this. I have struggled with dino for 26 years, and tried everything , and must say that all these ideas with dosing this and that has low working potential AME (dino may dissappear by itself when small outbreaks). One of the worst cure was the "Algenex" or similar. Its an algicide. It works 2 weeks, then it comes back, and THAT really hurt your corals, as you do not want to kill the zooxanthelle (which is a dinoflagelate).
I have been afraid of dino due to these all bad cures, and also quitted a few tanks back in the days. Finally when I tested UVC I thought the non chemical solution was there. yes and no, only for dinos that leave the sand we said. And then suddenly I got that dino that do NOT leave the sand. UVC only didnt help at all. (I checked that dino in microscope). So I added black out, and 3 days later 100% white sand and no recurrense. After 6 months it came back, same dino, did not leave the sand (brown sand also in the morning). I combined again black out and UV and dino disappeared. At this time I posted my study where I calculated how much P and N really contains, and found it was a lot. And from there I really doubt that low P and N is the cause, as I know that Dino can consume N and P in hours. Many reefers test N and P when dino is a fact, and do not know if it was consumed or low before it started. I have also seen a lot of dino cases where both N and P are high in the beginning. And I have also seen , logic according to my findings above, that dosing P is just fueling the dino.
A friend of mine had dino last year, he was told to add PO4, dino just increased. I told him to stop, and dino dissapperad. Just a sitation from real life. Maybe a coincidence but at least PO4 addition didnt help. (he had zero in po4 as long as he had dino as dino consumed it)



For me I am happy that I finally arent afraid of maybe the worst thing that may happen, a Dino bloom, thanks to this. And especially as its harmless as its no additives or chemicals at all. I think many have not correct flow/watt ratio in the UV and also too low flow compared to the tank size.

Jonas