Dino ID + Treatment

[martin.a]

lol

I sympathize. My tank looks the same right now. Minus the tang.
I am too dealing with Amphidinium outbreak. I am trying basically the same things as you do with basically the same results. I am starting to consider blackout. Fingers crossed for us to win, and best wishes!

 

[martin.a]

Yes, agree (at least partial...), if the "disease" has gone that far so the corals are really suffering, maybe a black out is bad. But only maybe, because its more stressfull for a sick coral to get too much light than opposite, and its more stressful for a coral to prolonge the dino outbreak. Its like a patient, as long as the treatment is doing before "no point of return", the action improves the outcome.

So We maybe have a little different experience of this. I have struggled with dino for 26 years, and tried everything , and must say that all these ideas with dosing this and that has low working potential AME (dino may dissappear by itself when small outbreaks). One of the worst cure was the "Algenex" or similar. Its an algicide. It works 2 weeks, then it comes back, and THAT really hurt your corals, as you do not want to kill the zooxanthelle (which is a dinoflagelate).
I have been afraid of dino due to these all bad cures, and also quitted a few tanks back in the days. Finally when I tested UVC I thought the non chemical solution was there. yes and no, only for dinos that leave the sand we said. And then suddenly I got that dino that do NOT leave the sand. UVC only didnt help at all. (I checked that dino in microscope). So I added black out, and 3 days later 100% white sand and no recurrense. After 6 months it came back, same dino, did not leave the sand (brown sand also in the morning). I combined again black out and UV and dino disappeared. At this time I posted my study where I calculated how much P and N really contains, and found it was a lot. And from there I really doubt that low P and N is the cause, as I know that Dino can consume N and P in hours. Many reefers test N and P when dino is a fact, and do not know if it was consumed or low before it started. I have also seen a lot of dino cases where both N and P are high in the beginning. And I have also seen , logic according to my findings above, that dosing P is just fueling the dino.
A friend of mine had dino last year, he was told to add PO4, dino just increased. I told him to stop, and dino dissapperad. Just a sitation from real life. Maybe a coincidence but at least PO4 addition didnt help. (he had zero in po4 as long as he had dino as dino consumed it)



For me I am happy that I finally arent afraid of maybe the worst thing that may happen, a Dino bloom, thanks to this. And especially as its harmless as its no additives or chemicals at all. I think many have not correct flow/watt ratio in the UV and also too low flow compared to the tank size.

Jonas

May I ask, when you say 'blackout' do you mean near-total darkness, or just lights off allowing for ambient daylight in the room?

Thanks a lot for sharing your hands-on experience. I am dealing with Amphidinium 'hugging' the sand right now. My assumption was/is that during blackout Amphidinium doesn't leave to water column but rather 'crawls' deeper into the sand. But it may do exactly that, but as it needs to eat at least once every second day, it gets waterborn when overly starved. And this when UV gets it.

 

[Mas0n]

lol

I sympathize. My tank looks the same right now. Minus the tang.
I am too dealing with Amphidinium outbreak. I am trying basically the same things as you do with basically the same results. I am starting to consider blackout. Fingers crossed for us to win, and best wishes!

Thank you! Best of luck to you as well.

Do you know what caused yours?

 

[JonasRoman]

May I ask, when you say 'blackout' do you mean near-total darkness, or just lights off allowing for ambient daylight in the room?

Thanks a lot for sharing your hands-on experience. I am dealing with Amphidinium 'hugging' the sand right now. My assumption was/is that during blackout Amphidinium doesn't leave to water column but rather 'crawls' deeper into the sand. But it may do exactly that, but as it needs to eat at least once every second day, it gets waterborn when overly starved. And this when UV gets it.

Yes, not only light off but some sheets or similar around the tank and something above so its as dark as possible. Together with uv. And no dose of p, it just fuel the dino.

 

[martin.a]

Yes, not only light off but some sheets or similar around the tank and something above so its as dark as possible. Together with uv. And no dose of p, it just fuel the dino.

Thanks. No dose of phosphates, even when they are at 0 ppm? Wow! Man, you are swimming against the current! This is not a critique!

I am sorry, if I am repeating something discussed before, but blackout will affect diatoms which are beneficial here. So, your blackout approach is a kind-of 'kill them all' approach, and so you must introduce the 'good guys' as soon as the light is back on. Diatoms are autotrophic, those dinoflagellates likely mixotropic... conceptually this makes the blackout tricky. But, observation is observation.

 

[martin.a]

Thank you! Best of luck to you as well.

Do you know what caused yours?

Who knows... My hypothesis is that this was bottoming out the macronutrients. But, of course it is plausible that rather the exploding dino population is responsible for the nutrients deficit.

One week my tank looked like a poster-child of perfection, the next it was hell. If I had the expirience, I would noticed the first signs of trouble. Maybe an early intervantion would save the day. Well... at least I learnt something.

BTW, to my understanding @JonasRoman suggests starving dinos with blackout and allowing them to exhaust the nutrients. A more canonical approach is to feed and provide energy (light) so diatom population can explode and push out the dinos (given enough silica). In theory both approaches can work. Both approaches are used in human therapies.
Here, the problem may lie in specificity of the species, mainly the dinos. Dinoflagellates are an insanely diverse group. We know very little about them and their ecology.

 

[JonasRoman]

Thanks. No dose of phosphates, even when they are at 0 ppm? Wow! Man, you are swimming against the current! This is not a critique!

I am sorry, if I am repeating something discussed before, but blackout will affect diatoms which are beneficial here. So, your blackout approach is a kind-of 'kill them all' approach, and so you must introduce the 'good guys' as soon as the light is back on. Diatoms are autotrophic, those dinoflagellates likely mixotropic... conceptually this makes the blackout tricky. But, observation is observation.

Yes, I know my method opposite to many in USA, R2R. So, I do not say anyone must mimic or believe me, I just say, for me it has always been working, and other methods almost never working for me. So, yes no dose of P. When dino dies in the UV they will release a lof of PO4, so after tha dark out and UV session of 3 days I guess you will have maybe 0.1 in PO4 or so.
I am not worried for the "good guys", they will come back quickly. I ususally after the UV is removed ( so totally 6 days( dose beneficial bacteria, and maybe some live copepods or similar. But to be honest I do not think thats so important.

 

[JonasRoman]

BTW, to my understanding @JonasRoman suggests starving dinos with blackout

yes but note that I combine with UV, thats important. The black out to force them into water column. At least in my cases also those stubborn ones that not leave sand bed so easy, will do sooner or later if you black out. Thats was my idea when I combined. Black out only or UV only was not that successfull, it was the combo.

Also, importsnt to do it right when coming to UV. First calculate the flow, it shall be tank volume four times in an hour. And for approx 2000l/h you need at least 55 W UV. So my tank for instance is 500 l. So pump 2000l/h, and UV 55W.

Jonas

 

[JonasRoman]

As many says here, and ask, why do we get DIno. Its maybe easy to just say, but I think its an unbalance in the microbiome. I mean, dino exists in a healthy system, just not visible as its not dominant. But very fast and sudden it can take over a tank, and maybe that organisms that growth fastest of them all? I personally do not think its because of low PO4, but as dino eats P very fast we often notice low PO4 at same time. Its hard to say what coming first, but yes some say dino favours when PO4 is zero. Maybe, as that may cause a competitor to die. But even if that is the truth, that is not same as the cure is to dose Po4, because now its too late, dino is already there and PO4 now is food for the dino. This is my own theories, so its ok to not agree:-)

Jonas

 

[JWsticks]

As many says here, and ask, why do we get DIno. Its maybe easy to just say, but I think its an unbalance in the microbiome. I mean, dino exists in a healthy system, just not visible as its not dominant. But very fast and sudden it can take over a tank, and maybe that organisms that growth fastest of them all? I personally do not think its because of low PO4, but as dino eats P very fast we often notice low PO4 at same time. Its hard to say what coming first, but yes some say dino favours when PO4 is zero. Maybe, as that may cause a competitor to die. But even if that is the truth, that is not same as the cure is to dose Po4, because now its too late, dino is already there and PO4 now is food for the dino. This is my own theories, so its ok to not agree:-)

Jonas

OPs tank looks very new and it is a proven fact aragonite sand or anything calcium carbonate based will soak up PO4 when brand new and will continue to do so until an equilibrium is reached. If that is the case, why arent we addressing the underlying issue instead? For new tanks, UV will only reduce outbreak but the underlying issue will only be resolved once an equilibrium is reached where PO4 or NO3 is not hard 0. I'm going through a minor outbreak myself due to a restart and documenting in another thread. FWIW, I've triggered dinos both ways where either NO3 or PO4 were hard 0 and both ways I've resolved dinos by dosing nutrients to non 0. IMO other solutions can work to reduce or resolve dinos in established tanks where rocks / sand are not soaking up PO4.

 

[martin.a]

OPs tank looks very new and it is a proven fact aragonite sand or anything calcium carbonate based will soak up PO4 when brand new and will continue to do so until an equilibrium is reached. If that is the case, why arent we addressing the underlying issue instead? For new tanks, UV will only reduce outbreak but the underlying issue will only be resolved once an equilibrium is reached where PO4 or NO3 is not hard 0. I'm going through a minor outbreak myself due to a restart and documenting in another thread. FWIW, I've triggered dinos both ways where either NO3 or PO4 were hard 0 and both ways I've resolved dinos by dosing nutrients to non 0. IMO other solutions can work to reduce or resolve dinos in established tanks where rocks / sand are not soaking up PO4.

Well, proven or not, I don't know. I have seen many 'facts' proven in Nature and Science (the journals) which were then retracted or 'unproven'. But I am not a geologist nor a geochemist.

I set up 2 tanks starting from exactly the same Marco rocks, and the same CaribSea reef sand. In the first I was dealing with very high phosphates and cyanobacteria. In the second, I am dealing with bottomed phosphates and dinoflagellates.

 

[JWsticks]

Well, proven or not, I don't know. I have seen many 'facts' proven in Nature and Science (the journals) which were then retracted or 'unproven'. But I am not a geologist nor a geochemist.

I set up 2 tanks starting from exactly the same Marco rocks, and the same CaribSea reef sand. In the first I was dealing with very high phosphates and cyanobacteria. In the second, I am dealing with bottomed phosphates and dinoflagellates.

Was the nutrient export and bioload the same for both tanks? I had a big issue with Marco Rocks initially and was also surprised by the fact new calcium carbonate rocks / sand suck up phosphate. Previously, I was using live rock and was always exporting PO4 instead of importing it. Always learning something new with reefing!

 

[martin.a]

As many says here, and ask, why do we get DIno. Its maybe easy to just say, but I think its an unbalance in the microbiome. I mean, dino exists in a healthy system, just not visible as its not dominant. But very fast and sudden it can take over a tank, and maybe that organisms that growth fastest of them all? I personally do not think its because of low PO4, but as dino eats P very fast we often notice low PO4 at same time. Its hard to say what coming first, but yes some say dino favours when PO4 is zero. Maybe, as that may cause a competitor to die. But even if that is the truth, that is not same as the cure is to dose Po4, because now its too late, dino is already there and PO4 now is food for the dino. This is my own theories, so its ok to not agree:-)

Jonas

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
Your observations are very valuable. It is a possibility that geographical location is of significance here. There are over 50, maybe 60 species of Amphidinium itself. Each may respond differently. Add variability of microbial population, ecological factors...

A lot of us often try a dozen of treatments and conclude that the last one was the working one, the post hoc attribution issue, to throw yet another hoc in here.

I assume it's very much possible that different treatments (or no treatments) work in different cases.

 

[martin.a]

Was the nutrient export and bioload the same for both tanks? I had a big issue with Marco Rocks initially and was also surprised by the fact new calcium carbonate rocks / sand suck up phosphate. Previously, I was using live rock and was always exporting PO4 instead of importing it. Always learning something new with reefing!

The second system, the one where phosphates bottomed is 640L vs the first one 150L. The first one has a pair of clowns, the second has a decora. So, yes. Although both tanks had very low load, there is a difference. There were other differences too, of course. Although the second tank was started using media from the first, it was supplemented with Fritz Zyme 9, which was never used in the first. The clowns used to be fed mostly with pellets, Decora eats only mysis. The second has been heavily dosed with phyto and had pods from day 1, the first got pods much later and was dosed with phyto. There have been differences in pH, alkalinity and temperature between those 2 tanks. There are heaps of variables.

OK, to sum it up: IMHO it's important to be open-minded. Even if something works for you and for your mate next door (or next state/country), it doesn't mean that this is how it is.

 

[JWsticks]

Was the nutrient export and bioload the same for both tanks? I had a big issue with Marco Rocks initially and was also surprised by the fact new calcium carbonate rocks / sand suck up phosphate. Previously, I was using live rock and was always exporting PO4 instead of importing it. Always learning something new with reefing!

The second system, the one where phosphates bottomed is 640L vs the first one 150L. The first one has a pair of clowns, the second has a decora. So, yes. Although both tanks had very low load, there is a difference. There were other differences too, of course. Although the second tank was started using media from the first, it was supplemented with Fritz Zyme 9, which was never used in the first. The clowns used to be fed mostly with pellets, Decora eats only mysis. The second has been heavily dosed with phyto and had pods from day 1, the first got pods much later and was dosed with phyto. There have been differences in pH, alkalinity and temperature between those 2 tanks. There are heaps of variables.

OK, to sum it up: IMHO it's important to be open-minded. Even if something works for you and for your mate next door (or next state/country), it doesn't mean that this is how it is.

My comments are to the point and might sound harsh if you're looking at other solutions or conflict with your views . If you search on R2R regarding dinos, I'm not saying anything new and I'm only sharing my perspective and comments.

Apologies if I come off offensive or confrontational. Just offering a solution to resolve your issues ASAP given I've experienced it many times and resolved it the same way.

 

[JonasRoman]

OPs tank looks very new and it is a proven fact aragonite sand or anything calcium carbonate based will soak up PO4 when brand new and will continue to do so until an equilibrium is reached. If that is the case, why arent we addressing the underlying issue instead? For new tanks, UV will only reduce outbreak but the underlying issue will only be resolved once an equilibrium is reached where PO4 or NO3 is not hard 0. I'm going through a minor outbreak myself due to a restart and documenting in another thread. FWIW, I've triggered dinos both ways where either NO3 or PO4 were hard 0 and both ways I've resolved dinos by dosing nutrients to non 0. IMO other solutions can work to reduce or resolve dinos in established tanks where rocks / sand are not soaking up PO4.

I do not believe the po4 absorbed in sand causes dino. That is fixed in some part, insolubable. One part is in equilibrium but always go back and forth and is not exclusively addressed to dino.
The reason I believe is not N and P itself but just that we of some reason have an unbalance of competition.
Dino is extremely effective in thriving as they can move to light due to its flagellles. Also eat organics besides photosynthesis. Thats why dino always win in competition over normal algue and bacteria. Uvc and black out kills so many dino so other population in sand bed get a chance to come back and balance is restored.

 

[JWsticks]

OPs tank looks very new and it is a proven fact aragonite sand or anything calcium carbonate based will soak up PO4 when brand new and will continue to do so until an equilibrium is reached. If that is the case, why arent we addressing the underlying issue instead? For new tanks, UV will only reduce outbreak but the underlying issue will only be resolved once an equilibrium is reached where PO4 or NO3 is not hard 0. I'm going through a minor outbreak myself due to a restart and documenting in another thread. FWIW, I've triggered dinos both ways where either NO3 or PO4 were hard 0 and both ways I've resolved dinos by dosing nutrients to non 0. IMO other solutions can work to reduce or resolve dinos in established tanks where rocks / sand are not soaking up PO4.

I do not believe the po4 absorbed in sand causes dino. That is fixed in some part, insolubable. One part is in equilibrium but always go back and forth and is not exclusively addressed to dino.
The reason I believe is not N and P itself but just that we of some reason have an unbalance of competition.
Dino is extremely effective in thriving as they can move to light due to its flagellles. Also eat organics besides photosynthesis. Thats why dino always win in competition over normal algue and bacteria. Uvc and black out kills so many dino so other population in sand bed get a chance to come back and balance is restored.

PO4 absorbed by the sand will cause a PO4 deficiency in the water column causing dinos to appear.

Agree photosynthesis in dinos will take up organics too. In previous experiences, I've dosed 0.20 ppm per day to see most of it reduced the following day. However, the dino mass did not change by much indicated something else was soaking it up or in my case calcium carbonate in the Marco rocks.

I probably dosed 5 ppm of PO4 into the system until the system stabilized with consistent readings of PO4. When dinos subsided, I did not see a spike in PO4. Where did all the PO4 go? I only had skimmer running during this time.