Dinoflagellates caused by an abundance of untestable organic nutrients in our tanks.

[Chris Villalobos]

Dinos are like any other life form in that they need Nitrogen to multiply. Just because we haven’t had the technology to see organic forms of Nitrogen doesn't mean our water isn’t polluted with it.

I understand there are many reasons that we can get to the point of these bad outbreaks. I’m trying to point out that low NO3 and PO4 doesn’t mean low Total Nitrogen Bound (TNb). We can have exceptionally high nitrogen in our tank but not be able to test for it. That’s a recipe for disaster.

 

[brandon429]

this is an easily tested idea, I agree with it although Im not sure organics are causative vs very strongly linked with support. I think the causative is unlucky import of the cells depending on where we source inputs. My own tank hasn't been stocked from a LFS with a dinos invasion, and it hasn't been added to in years (its full) so my system is dino free even when I let organics compile, which would normally cause dinos if the theory here is accurate.

I think they play a major, major role in support however, such that robbing them from a system can reverse the dinos...in the sand rinse thread, we take apart full running reefs of any size, tap rinse out the sand 100% cloudless/bye organics/ and we also want them to jet-evacuate the live rock pores of its waste detritus (more organics) or perhaps they swish the live rock in a bucket of clean salt water, so its casts out any built up waste vs holding it

when we re assemble tanks that have literally been stripped of organics and the sludge that accompanies them, the after pics show if it works or not statistically plus we're getting long term updates as well, although agreed its usually suspected cyano strains more than verified dinos

send us some infested dinos nanos to work with, they're easily accessible for rip cleaning without hesitation, a true test of the link to organics is can we make ten invaded nanos stay clean solely by rip cleaning and doing nothing else to impact nutrients or organic reserves.

 

[Paullawr]

this is an easily tested idea, I agree with it although Im not sure organics are causative vs very strongly linked with support. I think the causative is unlucky import of the cells depending on where we source inputs. My own tank hasn't been stocked from a LFS with a dinos invasion, and it hasn't been added to in years (its full) so my system is dino free even when I let organics compile, which would normally cause dinos if the theory here is accurate.

I think they play a major, major role in support however, such that robbing them from a system can reverse the dinos...in the sand rinse thread, we take apart full running reefs of any size, tap rinse out the sand 100% cloudless/bye organics/ and we also want them to jet-evacuate the live rock pores of its waste detritus (more organics) or perhaps they swish the live rock in a bucket of clean water, so its casts out any built up waste vs holding it

when we re assemble tanks that have literally been stripped of organics and the sludge that accompanies them, the after pics show if it works or not statistically plus we're getting long term updates as well, although agreed its usually suspected cyano strains way more than verified dinos

send us some infested dinos nanos to work with, they're easily accessible for rip cleaning without hesitation, a true test of the link to organics is can we make ten invaded nanos stay clean solely by rip cleaning and doing nothing else to impact nutrients or organic reserves.

Great post.

 

[Chris Villalobos]

my system is dino free even when I let organics compile

I would love to see the history your organic tests and which company does those tests for you. What is your TNb and what is the percent of that is NO3? I wasn't aware of these type of tests being offered to the reefing community until recently.

Like with green hair algae and inorganic N and P, just because we may have high NO3 and PO4 doesn't mean we will automatically have that algae in our tanks. But there is a potential for those types of pest algae to get out of control when we do have high NO3 and PO4 vs. when we have low NO3 and PO4. I think the same mechanics are happening with organic nitrogen and these pest bacterial blooms

The easiest way to test my theory is when more people start testing for organics themselves. I expect correlation of high organic N with both Dinos and Cyano.

 

[Chris Villalobos]

send us some infested dinos nanos to work with, they're easily accessible for rip cleaning without hesitation, a true test of the link to organics is can we make ten invaded nanos stay clean solely by rip cleaning and doing nothing else to impact nutrients or organic reserves.

So you plan to remove all the beneficial organisms from the tank, totally disrupting the nitrogen cycle, and then somehow prove this has any determination on how organics contributed to the dino problem?

 

[MnFish1]

Dinoflagellates can use multiple nitrogen substances to grow. Ammonium, Nitrite, Nitrate .etc. The thing is that they will not grow without a nitrogen source and the more nitrogen there is the faster they will grow except for Ammonium that tends to poison them. Of course more light makes them grow faster. More Phosphate didn't have an affect on growth.

Some dinos don't like to be shook. Interesting.

With due respect your original post still does not make sense to me. N and p from food amino acids etc will all be turned into smaller and smaller chemicals as they are used. Skimmers can be more than. 30% efficient depending on the size of the tank and the size of the skimmer. There is also no evidence that corals eat mostly small organics unless I missed it. So your hypothesis seems to be based on a string of sentences that may not be true?

 

[MnFish1]

I would love to see the history your organic tests and which company does those tests for you. What is your TNb and what is the percent of that is NO3? I wasn't aware of these type of tests being offered to the reefing community until recently.

Like with green hair algae and inorganic N and P, just because we may have high NO3 and PO4 doesn't mean we will automatically have that algae in our tanks. But there is a potential for those types of pest algae to get out of control when we do have high NO3 and PO4 vs. when we have low NO3 and PO4. I think the same mechanics are happening with organic nitrogen and these pest bacterial blooms

The easiest way to test my theory is when more people start testing for organics themselves. I expect correlation of high organic N with both Dinos and Cyano.

The main thing that keeps Dino’s etc in check are predation and competition from other organisms. In my experience. My guess is I could set up a tank with bare rock turn lights on and have Dino’s or other bad things no matter what the n p organic or inorganic are. If I took a tank and filled it with large acoropora with no dead spots I do not think I would have that problem

 

[brandon429]

how else is there better to test it, organics are stated as the cause. remove organics that accompany someones invasion, test the sustain

Its not like its ripping the heart out of a reef tank at all, people who move tanks or upgrade are simply taking advantage of a cleaning interval, to be low organics, to be invader free in the new setup. We're out to twenty pages of no dinos, across any tank you want to enter into it/send us challenges...link a better test its a good theory I like it.

 

[Chris Villalobos]

With due respect your original post still does not make sense to me. N and p from food amino acids etc will all be turned into smaller and smaller chemicals as they are used. Skimmers can be more than. 30% efficient depending on the size of the tank and the size of the skimmer. There is also no evidence that corals eat mostly small organics unless I missed it. So your hypothesis seems to be based on a string of sentences that may not be true?

On weather corals utilize Dissolved Organic Nitrogen I think I'm going to side with Julian Sprung. They utilize them directly or they eat the bacteria that eat those aminos.

Also Simmers by their nature cannot eliminate all organics and the studies I've seen and also personal N-DOC tests I have done have shown they are not great at removing a majority of organics.

 

[MnFish1]

On weather corals utilize Dissolved Organic Nitrogen I think I'm going to side with Julian Sprung. They utilize them directly or they eat the bacteria that eat those aminos.

Also Simmers by their nature cannot eliminate all organics and the studies I've seen and also personal N-DOC tests I have done have shown they are not great at removing a majority of organics.

There is a great difference between dissolved organics and eating bacteria. Coral take up organics i organics etc. I still don’t understand the link between dinoflagellates and organics per se

 

[Chris Villalobos]

how else is there better to test it, organics are stated as the cause. remove organics that accompany someones invasion, test the sustain

Its not like its ripping the heart out of a reef tank at all, people who move tanks or upgrade are simply taking advantage of a cleaning interval, to be low organics, to be invader free in the new setup. We're out to twenty pages of no dinos, across any tank you want to enter into it/send us challengs...link a better test its a good theory I like it.

Give it a try, I just see major issues with it. It's like removing all the bacteria from our digestive system then feeding us chili.

 

[Paullawr]

On weather corals utilize Dissolved Organic Nitrogen I think I'm going to side with Julian Sprung. They utilize them directly or they eat the bacteria that eat those aminos.

Also Simmers by their nature cannot eliminate all organics and the studies I've seen and also personal N-DOC tests I have done have shown they are not great at removing a majority of organics.

Unfortunatly julian sprung also suggested running two little fishes reactors with phosphate remover to completly resolve a bloom.

Aint happened yet. Well unless i need to dig out the tlf reactor. Clearly thats the winner here.

 

[MnFish1]

On weather corals utilize Dissolved Organic Nitrogen I think I'm going to side with Julian Sprung. They utilize them directly or they eat the bacteria that eat those aminos.

Also Simmers by their nature cannot eliminate all organics and the studies I've seen and also personal N-DOC tests I have done have shown they are not great at removing a majority of organics.

There is a great difference between dissolved organics and eating bacteria. I was going by your op which stated we can all agree that coral Coral take up organics and fish waste etc. I still don’t understand the link between dinoflagellates and organics per se. this is different than your original post suggesting they take up fish waste and dissolved organics. Is t most of a corals energy supply driven by light and zooxanthellae?

 

[Paullawr]

Seriously though if i cannot get to a low doc state with what i do we may as well all pack this in.

 

[Chris Villalobos]

There is a great difference between dissolved organics and eating bacteria. I was going by your op which stated we can all agree that coral Coral take up organics and fish waste etc. I still don’t understand the link between dinoflagellates and organics per se. this is different than your original post suggesting they take up fish waste and dissolved organics. Is t most of a corals energy supply driven by light and zooxanthellae?

I believe fish waste is partially live bacteria. Most people believe Amino Acids (DON) are utilized directly by corals, just like most in the community currently believe that corals utilize NO3 directly. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Mortie31]

I believe fish waste is partially live bacteria. Most people believe Amino Acids (DON) are utilized directly by corals, just like most in the community currently believe that corals utilize NO3 directly. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Believing something to be true is completely different to it being true...

 

[Paullawr]

Believing something to be true is completely different to it being true...

I'm so stealing that quote.

 

[MnFish1]

I believe fish waste is partially live bacteria. Most people believe Amino Acids (DON) are utilized directly by corals, just like most in the community currently believe that corals utilize NO3 directly. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Lol sorry I have no clue what you mean. With regards to the question I asked or the comment I made about your theory in the op. Specifically how any of it relates to dinoflagellatrs

 

[Chris Villalobos]

Lol sorry I have no clue what you mean. With regards to the question I asked or the comment I made about your theory in the op. Specifically how any of it relates to dinoflagellatrs

What don't you have a clue about?

Dinos can utilize forms of Nitrogen other than NO3. These "coral foods" we use to directly (or indirectly) feed the corals Zooxanthellae are also easily available to dinos. Fish poop, amino acids, small particulate foods, rotting foods, and live bacteria are all on a Dino's menu. They will even use Ammonia and Nitrite.

The simple measurement of NO3 doesn't tell us of potential danger we are in for a Dino outbreak. A better measurement is TNb (Total Nitrogen Bound).

Now if we have high organic Nitrogen how to we reduce it is the question.

 

[brandon429]

how does cleaning out the sandbed and jetting out the rocks not reduce it? the feed and bioloading (feed input, waste from fish and respiring animals) is the only other source that stands out to me

additional creativity: clean the tank then restock beneficial microbes, wo the associated scum film and mud that are organic stores...its easy to clean without reducing biodiversity, in fact that way increases it. we found all kinds of change ups along the way in the application threads. algen sells neat bed recharging kits