Dinoflagellates caused by an abundance of untestable organic nutrients in our tanks.

[MnFish1]

I’d ask Triton how to go about this, as it’s them who started this idea about a year ago, but so far have failed to offer much in the way of explanation, either in here or on their fb page. Post #71 above from there fb page directly suggest increasing nitrate to improve the “metabolism” of your system, which according to their theory will reduce your TNb... This does support the theory that too low nitrates and phosphate can drive Cyano and Dino breakouts as well as not being good for corals... Its all about the “triton ratios” apparently... and not so much about the actual levels unless your nitrate is to low and they will sell you a potion to raise that...

I will say this upfront. If its coming down to testing x, y , z - I would rather do water changes and not worry about it. There is nothing sacred about not doing them (is there)? is there going to be a new test developed every 6 months that the people not doing water changes need to do? I have no clue - but I will not be in that club. Thats no offense to those that want to go that route - but based on the false positives (or high results where there are no 'symptoms' of problems) etc - I just dont see it (no offense to those that do it) - but its similar to people who have color coded PVC - it looks nice - very nice - but necissary - IMO no.

 

[Mortie31]

I will say this upfront. If its coming down to testing x, y , z - I would rather do water changes and not worry about it. There is nothing sacred about not doing them (is there)? is there going to be a new test developed every 6 months that the people not doing water changes need to do? I have no clue - but I will not be in that club. Thats no offense to those that want to go that route - but based on the false positives (or high results where there are no 'symptoms' of problems) etc - I just dont see it (no offense to those that do it) - but its similar to people who have color coded PVC - it looks nice - very nice - but necissary - IMO no.

I’m not against testing per se, but one thing that really annoys me are companies who suggest things to worry/ confuse reefers to sell products, and at the moment unless triton fully explain and support there findings and rational, this falls into the annoying category... as more time passes I grow ever more suspicious as why they have not give us answers, maybe they don’t have them and are trying to make a theory/ story fit there marketing aims

 

[Jberge]

How often did you dose? I’ve been using it but trying to not overdose

 

[Jberge]

Seriously consider it. It won't hurt and may give you type of bacteria you need to out compete the dinos. I did most of what the BRS directions said to do except I didn't use "Refresh" and I didn't do the blackout period, I also doubled the dose. My dinos went away in two weeks.

^

 

[Chris Villalobos]

So if your theory of lowering TNb is correct what is the best way to go about lowering it? My tank is battling a medium to moderate cyano/hair algae outbreak. For the last 2-3 weeks No3 has been between 2-4 and Po4 0.02-0.03.

My last tank was a triton setup and I ran into dinos. I was able to beat it a few times but the last time it came on hard and whiped my tank. I ended up tearing it down and restarting. I am super nervous to let my nutrients get to low but after reading this thread I am thinning my TNb is sky high.

I sent in a ICP test last week and will be sending in a NDOC Monday.

Any advice on lowering the TNb? I can also start a new thread if you want so I don’t intrude on this one if you want.

Since the beginning of this thread I have proposed we can be overfeeding and not know it. If you look at my post #70 I'm trying to reduce organic N by reducing feedings and increase inorganic N by lowering my NO3 exports (reducing my chaeto mass and light intensity) and dosing NO3. Triton's guidance is 1 part organic to 2 parts inorganic as proportion of TNb. Triton also suggests TNb should be 0.4PPM, translated to potential Nitrate that's 1.772PPM (0.4 x 4.43 = 1.772). So Triton obviously wants its users keeping Nitrogen super low. I don't think we can keep these numbers perfectly as home aquarists, but we should strive for low TNb with most of it being NO3.

Phosphate also plays a vital role in the nitrogen cycle so don't let it drop to zero. Right now I'm having to dose 0.02PPM PO4 per day to keep it testing at 0.03PPM.

I'm seeing good results. Dinos are gone. Cyano is receding. Corals are looking great and growing.

 

[Chris Villalobos]

How often did you dose? I’ve been using it but trying to not overdose

If you are talking about bacteria dosing I have been following Dr. Tim's guidance of 10ml Waste Away per 10 gallon aquarium water per week. Once I get organics where I want them I'll probably reduce dosing. I've also double dosed Waste Away in the past without seeing side effects in my tank. Dr. Tim does warn against adding too much Waste Away in the beginning of treating a "dirty tank" because it may cause a bacteria bloom. He recommends a half dose.

 

[Jberge]

If you are talking about bacteria dosing I have been following Dr. Tim's guidance of 10ml Waste Away per 10 gallon aquarium water per week. Once I get organics where I want them I'll probably reduce dosing. I've also double dosed Waste Away in the past without seeing side effects in my tank. Dr. Tim does warn against adding too much Waste Away in the beginning of treating a "dirty tank" because it may cause a bacteria bloom. He recommends a half dose.

Oh ok. I thought maybe you were dosing differently than the instructions. I haven’t seen any difference in my tank using it

 

[Chris Villalobos]

Oh ok. I thought maybe you were dosing differently than the instructions. I haven’t seen any difference in my tank using it

When I was battling Dinos I was double dosing.

Yeah It's one of those things. If Dinos break out there are many links in the chain of events that could have brought them on. Are we over feeding (specifically "coral foods")? Did we accidentally kill off our good bacteria? Are NO3 and PO4 too low? Is there some strange detritus build up in our sand beds? Is the tank just immature to begin with?

I don't see Triton offering bacteria supplements. That says something.

 

[Jberge]

When I was battling Dinos I was double dosing.

Yeah It's one of those things. If Dinos break out there are many links in the chain of events that could have brought them on. Are we over feeding (specifically "coral foods")? Did we accidentally kill off our good bacteria? Are NO3 and PO4 too low? Is there some strange detritus build up in our sand beds? Is the tank just immature to begin with?

I don't see Triton offering bacteria supplements. That says something.

I wasn’t feeding or adding supplements for the coral. Good bacteria dead, idk? NO3 and PO4 have been zero since I started testing after the dinos. The tank is a little over 2yrs old. I had a cyano problem, used chemiclean which killed it but there was hair algae under it. Not long after, the dinos showed up and they are growing on top of the HA

 

[Chris Villalobos]

NO3 and PO4 have been zero since I started testing after the dinos.

I think that is your major problem. NO3 and PO4 feed good bacteria. Google "Phosphate Block"

"All species of nitrifying bacteria require a number of micronutrients. Most important among these is the need for phosphorus for ATP (Adenosine Tri-Phosphate) production. The conversion of ATP provides energy for cellular functions. Phosphorus is normally available to cells in the form of phosphates (PO4). Nitrobacter, especially, is unable to oxidize nitrite to nitrate in the absence of phosphates." http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html

 

[DesertReefBoy]

I wasn’t feeding or adding supplements for the coral. Good bacteria dead, idk? NO3 and PO4 have been zero since I started testing after the dinos. The tank is a little over 2yrs old. I had a cyano problem, used chemiclean which killed it but there was hair algae under it. Not long after, the dinos showed up and they are growing on top of the HA

This is exactly what I am afraid of doing. My LFS told me to use chemiclean. I’ve read a few stories where dinos have showed up after chemiclean was used. I do weekly water changes and last week was the first week I sucked as much cyano out as I could. This is when I noticed hair alage under the cyano. I have also noticed over the past week the hair alage seems to be spreading more. I have three tangs in the tank with a decent clean up crew. I’m going to try to add a few more hermits this next week to see if they put a dent in the HA. I also feed Larry’s and have a large bio load. I wonder if I started feeding every other day for a few weeks if this could possibly lower my TNb?

 

[DesertReefBoy]

Since the beginning of this thread I have proposed we can be overfeeding and not know it. If you look at my post #70 I'm trying to reduce organic N by reducing feedings and increase inorganic N by lowering my NO3 exports (reducing my chaeto mass and light intensity) and dosing NO3. Triton's guidance is 1 part organic to 2 parts inorganic as proportion of TNb. Triton also suggests TNb should be 0.4PPM, translated to potential Nitrate that's 1.772PPM (0.4 x 4.43 = 1.772). So Triton obviously wants its users keeping Nitrogen super low. I don't think we can keep these numbers perfectly as home aquarists, but we should strive for low TNb with most of it being NO3.

Phosphate also plays a vital role in the nitrogen cycle so don't let it drop to zero. Right now I'm having to dose 0.02PPM PO4 per day to keep it testing at 0.03PPM.

I'm seeing good results. Dinos are gone. Cyano is receding. Corals are looking great and growing.

I won’t know what my TNb is until I send in my NDOC Monday but I am thinking it is high due to a large bio load and only 14 SPS frags along with some zoas. I tested No3 this morning w/Red Sea pro it came back at 2 ppm. Po4 was 0.03 which is a small increase from 0.02. I do weekly 10% water changes and have good flow in my bare bottom tank. Flow is right around 50x turn over and I want to increase it to closer to 75x-100x turnover. I don’t feed any coral food. I would say I feed moderate to heavy with Larry’s and will put some seaweed in twice a week for the tangs.

I have a large refugium powered by a kessil h380. It only runs 6 hrs a night and I have been seeing good growth. The pod population in my sump and tank is amazing and I also keep adding Tisbe pods since I culture them myself. Do you think if I cut feedings back to every other day that would decrease my TNb?

 

[Jberge]

I think that is your major problem. NO3 and PO4 feed good bacteria. Google "Phosphate Block"

"All species of nitrifying bacteria require a number of micronutrients. Most important among these is the need for phosphorus for ATP (Adenosine Tri-Phosphate) production. The conversion of ATP provides energy for cellular functions. Phosphorus is normally available to cells in the form of phosphates (PO4). Nitrobacter, especially, is unable to oxidize nitrite to nitrate in the absence of phosphates." http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html

Phosphate block, like for cattle? How do you suggest I use it? Should I dose NO3 also? I’ve been feeding heavy trying to get something to register on a test with no luck

This is exactly what I am afraid of doing. My LFS told me to use chemiclean. I’ve read a few stories where dinos have showed up after chemiclean was used. I do weekly water changes and last week was the first week I sucked as much cyano out as I could. This is when I noticed hair alage under the cyano. I have also noticed over the past week the hair alage seems to be spreading more. I have three tangs in the tank with a decent clean up crew. I’m going to try to add a few more hermits this next week to see if they put a dent in the HA. I also feed Larry’s and have a large bio load. I wonder if I started feeding every other day for a few weeks if this could possibly lower my TNb?

I read the same stories except it was after using the chemiclean and the dinos showing up. I don’t think it’s a coincidence

 

[DesertReefBoy]

I read the same stories except it was after using the chemiclean and the dinos showing up. I don’t think it’s a coincidence[/QUOTE]
I choose cyano over dinos any day. I wouldn’t be surprised if the cyano was keeping the dinos as bay. As of now the cyano isn’t killing anything just a big eye sore. I’m really curious what my NDOC says.

 

[Chris Villalobos]

Phosphate block, like for cattle? How do you suggest I use it? Should I dose NO3 also? I’ve been feeding heavy trying to get something to register on a test with no luck

Don't try to increase your NO3 by feeding more when you have Dinos.

Phosphate Block - The lack of phosphate causing the nitrogen cycle to stop. (Nothing to do with cattle feed.)

 

[MnFish1]

Don't try to increase your NO3 by feeding more when you have Dinos.

Phosphate Block - The lack of phosphate causing the nitrogen cycle to stop. (Nothing to do with cattle feed.)

Specifically - why? I might have missed something - but besides what you said in your OP - there is no reason to do what you're saying. What is the theory behind why feeding more (or less) affects dinoflagellates one way or the other? What physiology of dinoflagellates leads you to suggest this?

 

[Chris Villalobos]

Specifically - why? I might have missed something - but besides what you said in your OP - there is no reason to do what you're saying. What is the theory behind why feeding more (or less) affects dinoflagellates one way or the other? What physiology of dinoflagellates leads you to suggest this?

Tell me what you believe happens to fish food from when we add it to the tank to when it eventually turns into inorganic nutrients NO3 and PO4. Maybe then we will be on the same page.

 

[Mortie31]

Tell me what you believe happens to fish food from when we add it to the tank to when it eventually turns into inorganic nutrients NO3 and PO4. Maybe then we will be on the same page.

I’m sorry but your making claims here that may impact in the way people manage there tanks, and may cause issues for them if your “theories and beliefs” are incorrect, therefore it is up to you to prove what you are saying, not ask others to disprove you..

 

[MnFish1]

Tell me what you believe happens to fish food from when we add it to the tank to when it eventually turns into inorganic nutrients NO3 and PO4. Maybe then we will be on the same page.

The point is where is the data or information that any of it matters to the growth or inhibition of dinoflagellates. What I believe happens to fish food doesn’t seem to make a difference?

 

[Chris Villalobos]

The point is where is the data or information that any of it matters to the growth or inhibition of dinoflagellates. What I believe happens to fish food doesn’t seem to make a difference?

I you can't easily tell me about the nitrogen cycle I guess we have nothing left to talk about.