Dinoflagellates caused by an abundance of untestable organic nutrients in our tanks.

[DesertReefBoy]

I will also post my NDOC results when I get them.

 

[FlyPenFly]

I've had Dinos in a new unfed tank that was left running with lights on while I was away to cycle it.

Once you get out of the Dino stage as your system matures, the only times I"ve seen it return for me, is when I add sand to my system for a deeper sand bed, then it makes a strong return. Is it possible that it's feeding off of silicates or something else in fresh sand?

 

[taricha]

Glad I finally got a chance to read the thread. This discussion needs to happen.
A few thoughts.
I don't believe in single causes or single-effect cures for dinos, I do however agree with the thesis of this thread.
Namely, there are many photosynthetic organisms in our systems and many nutrient forms. They don't all like the same things equally. Dinos are more capable at uptake of larger organic molecule forms than smaller inorganic ones, algae are reversed in preferring small inorganic versions.

(I'll dig up published papers on this, it's kinda key)

So in my thinking about dinos, it's always about shifting influences to favor some things over others. Ratios and amounts of organic nutrients are key and measuring them ought to be helpful.

 

[Mortie31]

Glad I finally got a chance to read the thread. This discussion needs to happen.
A few thoughts.
I don't believe in single causes or single-effect cures for dinos, I do however agree with the thesis of this thread.
Namely, there are many photosynthetic organisms in our systems and many nutrient forms. They don't all like the same things equally. Dinos are more capable at uptake of larger organic molecule forms than smaller inorganic ones, algae are reversed in preferring small inorganic versions.

(I'll dig up published papers on this, it's kinda key)

So in my thinking about dinos, it's always about shifting influences to favor some things over others. Ratios and amounts of organic nutrients are key and measuring them ought to be helpful.

I agree with testing should be useful, however what I don’t understand is triton did thousands of NDOC tests and analysed there database of 30000 users and whilst they have published there theory on ratios, there has been nothing else from them, surely if they had anything conclusive they would be publishing results and telling us as nuisance algae’s/ bacteria’s are so common in the hobby, rather than the very cloak and dagger approach and there 6 potions to “balance” things out. Hopefully one day they will truly try to help... unless as a lot of threads have discussed there data collection was at best sketchy...

 

[taricha]

(I'll dig up published papers on this, it's kinda key)

From an earlier post of mine...

First, on the macroalgaes - yes. NH4, NO3, Aminos is the order of preference, and fast growing algae can really ramp up their NH4 uptake if the opportunity presents itself.
This paper: "Uptake of urea and amino acids by the macroalgae Ulva lactuca (Chlorophyta) and Gracilaria vermiculophylla (Rhodophyta)"
has some really interesting stuff. One takeaway is that Amino acids get uptaken faster (generally) if they have a smaller side-chain. (see fig 3)

The paper talks about the algae having to break down the amino for absorption to get the ammonia part it wants. And that it is too much trouble to bother with if inorganic N is around.
"The mechanism for ALA [alanine] uptake may be different from that for NH4 +, so that there is discrimination between the 2 compounds. This may indicate that ALA uptake is induced only when DIN concentrations are low, and that fertilization with either NO3 – or NH4 + shuts off this potentially energy demanding process."

That makes sense. The dino part is weird though.
From the "putting the N in dinos" paper that's been posted here already

"Another tendency in dinoflagellates is inhibition of NO−3 uptake when in the presence of NH+4... Curiously, different blooming populations of dinoflagellates were found to have high uptake rates for urea and/or amino acids, and these rates were always higher than the rates for NO−3 uptake. In L. polyedrum, the urea uptake rate was also about 2 times more than that of NH+4, even if environmental urea concentrations were less than NH+4. Taken together, these observations suggest that dinoflagellates possess a full suite of transporters for inorganic N and organic N forms...."

Dinos better at taking up big organic N forms than straight ammonia? Super weird.

So Algae preference: Ammonia over Nitrate over Aminos
Dino preference: Aminos over Ammonia (as long as it's a tiny amount) over Nitrate.

 

[FlyPenFly]

Hmmmm then I wonder if dosing the coral aminos are a horrible idea

 

[taricha]

Hmmmm then I wonder if dosing the coral aminos are a horrible idea

Not really. It's all about context.
In a tank that is free of problem dinos and doesn't have a recent Dino outbreak history, aminos are a fantastic Coral food. In fact most of the things that dinos love, corals also love.
But during a dino bloom? Aminos are a terrible idea. In fact, I have used amino acid products in order to push a mixed assembly of dinos and green algae to become Dino dominant, and the algae faded.

 

[taricha]

I agree with testing should be useful, however what I don’t understand is triton did thousands of NDOC tests and analysed there database of 30000 users and whilst they have published there theory on ratios, there has been nothing else from them, surely if they had anything conclusive they would be publishing results and telling us as nuisance algae’s/ bacteria’s are so

They have 30k data points of CORRELATION IS STILL NOT CAUSATION.
They did not take control of their users tanks and do any experiments.
So they are relying on published science.

Besides, hobbyists underestimate how little published science there is about our problems. Dinos specifically - i've never seen even one paper that talks about the large cell amphidinium dinos that are maybe the 2nd most common type of problem dino we see. (Oh, and its nutrient seeking behavior is polar opposite of ostreopsis - our number 1 problem dino.)

 

[Chris Villalobos]

Still waiting on N-DOC results, but I have to report some weird PO4 consumption in my tank that must correspond with new sand additions I've been performing over a month now. Every time I syphon I been replacing and replenishing my sand. I've been getting rid of the old small particle aragonite and adding 'reef flakes'. Over a month I've replaced/added almost 20lbs of new sand. All my parameters had been normal until 4/2/19 when my PO4 started dropping. In the chart below you can see I've been dosing up to 0.2PPM PO4 each day and my tests are showing only 0.03PPM PO4. My tank is consuming 0.2PPM PO4 each day! My NO3 has stayed relatively stable through this event so it must be the aragonite binding PO4. It's just strange that it happened all the sudden. So my N-DOC may be compromised. I did get my ICP back though. I think the NaNO3 I had been dosing was contaminated with Fe and Pb. I recently bought some "Loudwolf" NaNO3 and it mixed up without any precipitate, we will see if that drops the Fe contamination.

ICP test results from 4/3/19 : https://www.triton-lab.de/en/showroom/aquarium/auswertung-b/icp-oes/87983/

 

[amazongb]

The NDoc seems interesting. I've been struggling with a two year old 100 gallon tank started with dry rock.. I've been manually removing dynos and some patches of cyano on the sand bed, tank always test NO3=0 and PO4=0. Corals are doing fine, not super colorful, but growing. I tried dosing nitrates and cyano went nuts, so I stopped. I feed one cube of mysis or a pinch of pellets a day. I skim, filter socks changed every few days, refugium with kessil grow light and algae thriving in the ref. I have a small 20 gallon tank started with live rock that doesn't have any of these problems...

Most will say feed more to raise nitrates.. but it fuels the cyan0 and dynos in my tank.. so I'm left staring like a deer into head lights.. This thread has shed some new light, which is great.

 

[Mortie31]

This thread has shed some new light, which is great.

Could you please explain what light it’s shed as I cannot see anything yet despite reading as much on NDOC as I can find

 

[Chris Villalobos]

Just got my first N-DOC back after reducing my feedings and also reducing my inorganic export and the proportion of TNb that is locked in organic form did drop.

In the previous N-DOC test I had a TNb = 6.81ppm potential NO3 with only 0.25ppm NO3 tested. Ratio of 26:1 organic to inorganic N
The current N-DOC shows TNb = 6.41ppm potential NO3 with 4ppm NO3 tested. Ratio of 1.41:2 organic to inorganic N

I've increased my inorganic Nitrogen but also decreased my Total Nitrogen Bound! This is important if we want to decrease the potential for Dinos and Cyano.

 

[Mortie31]

Just got my first N-DOC back after reducing my feedings and also reducing my inorganic export and the proportion of TNb that is locked in organic form did drop.

In the previous N-DOC test I had a TNb = 6.81ppm potential NO3 with only 0.25ppm NO3 tested. Ratio of 26:1 organic to inorganic N
The current N-DOC shows TNb = 6.41ppm potential NO3 with 4ppm NO3 tested. Ratio of 1.41:2 organic to inorganic N

I've increased my inorganic Nitrogen but also decreased my Total Nitrogen Bound! This is important if we want to decrease the potential for Dinos and Cyano.

I’m glad you have seen your predicted change in the TNb figures you wanted, but what has happened in your tank? Has it made any diference to corals, dinos or bacteria? How does everything look at lower levels? Has the reduced feedings affected anything negatively?

 

[Chris Villalobos]

I’m glad you have seen your predicted change in the TNb figures you wanted, but what has happened in your tank? Has it made any diference to corals, dinos or bacteria? How does everything look at lower levels? Has the reduced feedings affected anything negatively?

Well, 5 months ago my tank was so under fed that I couldn't keep hard corals. Then I overfeed to the point of a Dino outbreak followed by Red Cyano. Now hard corals are growing and colorful but I'm seeing a little bit of hair algae coming back. I'd have to say I've learned a lot though I still have a ways to go. The fact that corals are once again healthy and thriving makes be think by next year I'll have a healthy reef system.

The big takeaway is that we can overfeed and not know it because in this day and age inorganic nutrient export can be too efficient.

 

[Mortie31]

Well, 5 months ago my tank was so under fed that I couldn't keep hard corals. Then I overfeed to the point of a Dino outbreak followed by Red Cyano. Now hard corals are growing and colorful but I'm seeing a little bit of hair algae coming back. I'd have to say I've learned a lot though I still have a ways to go. The fact that corals are once again healthy and thriving makes be think by next year I'll have a healthy reef system.

The big takeaway is that we can overfeed and not know it because in this day and age inorganic nutrient export can be too efficient.

I’m really glad your system is doing well, I’m still not sure that you can attribute it to reducing TNb levels, i do 100% agree that input and output of nutrients needs to be balanced to have a healthy system, but more importantly NO3 and PO4 need to be at healthy levels. it will be interesting to see how NDOC testing goes over the next few years..

 

[m0jjen]

Currently have dinos that dont respond to UVC nor dirty metod.

N-doc https://www.triton-lab.de/en/showroom/aquarium/auswertung-a/n-doc/1668/
ICP https://www.triton-lab.de/en/showroom/aquarium/auswertung-b/icp-oes/74396/

 

[Chris Villalobos]

Currently have dinos that dont respond to UVC nor dirty metod.

N-doc https://www.triton-lab.de/en/showroom/aquarium/auswertung-a/n-doc/1668/
ICP https://www.triton-lab.de/en/showroom/aquarium/auswertung-b/icp-oes/74396/

What was your tested NO3 and PO4 at the time of the N-DOC test? How old is the tank?

 

[m0jjen]

What was your tested NO3 and PO4 at the time of the N-DOC test? How old is the tank?

No3: 2.0
Po4: 0

Tank has been up for abit over a year, dino bloom along with hairalgae came when i decided to rearrange the scape abit and stirred up alot of crap from the sand. Skimmer which produced little to no skimmate for the first year now produces a thick black sludge and alot of it

 

[Chris Villalobos]

No3: 2.0
Po4: 0

Tank has been up for abit over a year, dino bloom along with hairalgae came when i decided to rearrange the scape abit and stirred up alot of crap from the sand. Skimmer which produced little to no skimmate for the first year now produces a thick black sludge and alot of it

Well to me you organic Nitrogen looks great! How bad is the outbreak and do you have any pictures? Considering the nutrient potential of your tank it shouldn’t be a terrible outbreak.

Your PO4 level is concerning. How long has it been at zero. I was having a discourse with a person from “Dr. Tim’s” and their Waste-Away product will not work if PO4 is hitting zero. The beneficial bacteria that compete with Dinos and Cyano to break down organic nutrients need a supply of both NO3 and PO4 survive.

 

[m0jjen]

Just got my first N-DOC back after reducing my feedings and also reducing my inorganic export and the proportion of TNb that is locked in organic form did drop.

In the previous N-DOC test I had a TNb = 6.81ppm potential NO3 with only 0.25ppm NO3 tested. Ratio of 26:1 organic to inorganic N
The current N-DOC shows TNb = 6.41ppm potential NO3 with 4ppm NO3 tested. Ratio of 1.41:2 organic to inorganic N

I've increased my inorganic Nitrogen but also decreased my Total Nitrogen Bound! This is important if we want to decrease the potential for Dinos and Cyano.

So what you did was dose inorganic nutrients and decreased feeding to maintain / lower your TNb? With a current outbreak vaccuming the sandbed for nutrients would make alot of sense then along with a good sump cleaning and baster the rock to make the nutrients go into the water and down a sock / and or other filtration means.

Well to me you organic Nitrogen looks great! How bad is the outbreak and do you have any pictures? Considering the nutrient potential of your tank it shouldn’t be a terrible outbreak.

Your PO4 level is concerning. How long has it been at zero. I was having a discourse with a person from “Dr. Tim’s” and their Waste-Away product will not work if PO4 is hitting zero. The beneficial bacteria that compete with Dinos and Cyano to break down organic nutrients need a supply of both NO3 and PO4 survive.

It hit zero in october and i started dosing. I NEVER used gfo yet i got a ICP telling me 0.00 po4. ICP https://www.triton-lab.de/en/showroom/aquarium/auswertung-b/icp-oes/68385/

If you're theory is correct. Dosing inorganic phosphate and nitrate along with removal of organics should lower or lead to the eradication of dinos, am i correct?

Since i got hairalgae and dinos about a month ago i started dosing both phosphate and nitrate. This pretty much lead to the hairalgae getting out of control along with dinos remaining unchanged. I started of doing 0.02 ppm every morning and went up to 0.1 every morning and evening, just 2-3 hours later it always showed zero again.