Disease of Some Sort??

[CanadianReefer]

So, one of my damselfish has picked up some sort of infection. I've never seen anything quite like it before. Her lips are white and swollen (she looks like she has Jagger lips) and she has white raised fuzzy(ish) white patches on her scales and on her fin. At one point, whatever it is broke through the skin of one of the patches and she was left with a red dot (like what you'd look like if you picked at a zit). It has since healed.

On the other hand, the fish is otherwise displaying normal behaviour. She's not shying away, she's swimming around the tank just fine and she's eating normally despite what looks like another zit-like patch inside her mouth. Thus far, I haven't noticed it on any of the other fish (thankfully) but whatever it is, I'm sure it could easily be passed along.

I have corals, so dosing the tank isn't an option. She's too quick to net and just darts into the rocks when I try. I have too many hiding places for her and the last thing I want to do is stress out the other fish so their immune systems go downhill.

Since she's feeding, I've mixed metroplex in with her food and am very carefully feeding the tank, but I can't put that much in since it can't fall on my corals.

I'm crossing my fingers that they are getting enough medication to help, or that this is virus-related and will go away.

Has anyone else come across mick jagger lips and fuzzy(ish) white raised bumps that burst??

 

[4FordFamily]

We need a photo of the afflicted fish so we can make a proper ID.

Sounds really bad, despite what the dish is displaying. :/

@Humblefish @melypr1985 @Brew12

 

[melypr1985]

I definitely want to see a picture of this. Ford is right, this doesn't sounds awesome at all.

 

[CanadianReefer]

I will try to get a picture of her shortly. It's a shame - I'm worried about the rest of the tank - and it came out of nowhere. It reminds me of the time that one of my extremely well-established freshwater tanks had an outbreak of God knows what (my best guess is Dwarf Gourami virus) and knocked out 8 dwarf gouramis and 2 cichlids within a few weeks

 

[Humblefish]

Sounds like Columnaris (bacterial infection).

Very difficult to treat. The next time I encounter it I'm gonna try Triple Sulfa Powder.

 

[CanadianReefer]

Alright - these are terrible pictures since the tank is already in night mode, but what you'll see is the white shiny lips, body and fin bumps. Odd, right? I will try to get daytime photos of her too if I am home from work in time tomorrow. The lips are huge! Any ideas?

 

[melypr1985]

it almost looks like she tangled with something in the tank and lost. Like she went after a bristle worm or fought with somebody in the tank. I've seen the swollen lips before and usually the fish has been fighting, tried to eat a bristle worm or bit a coral that stung it or otherwise disagreed with their body.

 

[CanadianReefer]

I would think that if it were just the lips, but the other white spots you see in the picture on her head, side and fin are, in fact, white fuzzy(ish) raised bumps and not just odd camera light....

 

[melypr1985]

I would think that if it were just the lips, but the other white spots you see in the picture on her head, side and fin are, in fact, white fuzzy(ish) raised bumps and not just odd camera light....

Could be damage to the scales with an infection setting in. That could have been caused by fighting, or if you have ich or soemthing like it in the system this could be caused by that as well... though the lips don't really fit into that theory very well.

 

[Humblefish]

Does it look like this?

 

[CanadianReefer]

No - I wouldn't say so. The lips are swollen and white, but there's nothing oozing or attached or otherwise noticeable like in this picture.
I actually did put a bristleworm trap in last night, on the off chance that it was something of that nature. I had spotted a few that are starting to get a bit too big for my liking... it's possible, but I'm just not sure.

I guess I'll just cross my fingers that she survives or at least doesn't pass it along to the others before perishing. I had wondered about lymphocrytis (I know I'm not spelling that correctly, but am too tired to look it up right now)....

 

[CanadianReefer]

Humblefish - what kind of disease was that that you've pictured?

There are odd things coming out of her mouth now. Oddly, she's still eating and acting like nothing has happened. Still no signs of it spreading, knock on wood.

 

[Humblefish]

Humblefish - what kind of disease was that that you've pictured?

There are odd things coming out of her mouth now. Oddly, she's still eating and acting like nothing has happened. Still no signs of it spreading, knock on wood.

It's a Columnaris-like infection that has kicked my butt a few times now. The next time I encounter it, I'm going to try the sulfa drugs.

 

[CanadianReefer]

Sooo...

The damsel is on the mend. Only 1 tiny little spot left near her fin, but the lips are no longer swollen, the other mysterious bumps are gone, and it does not appear that she passed it along to anyone. I think it may have been viral. So hard to tell... She did get Ich during her trial though, and this has unfortunately been passed along to some of her tank mates

In this regard, I have some other questions.

This has really given me a wakeup call in terms of QT tanks. I was somewhat of a rebel and had added fish to the DT only after freshwater and hydraplex dips, and had been successful (lucky) using this method. The damsel was in the tank for quite some time so it wasn't my "method" that brought about her disease, but nonetheless, I realized it was near impossible to treat her while she was in the tank. I've been trying to control the Ich with Kick Ich, but let's face it, it's only a mild treatment and it does have a bit of a negative effect on the tank as a whole. Eye opener.

So I bought a QT tank yesterday and set it up downstairs. It is a 36g bowfront. I stuck a few plastic decorations and some PVC pipes, filled it with mostly current tank water, used chips of the marine pure blocks that were in the sump of my DT to introduce beneficial bacterias (I have it running through the filtration system on the QT tank) and plan to put a small dish of live sand from my display tank into this one. The idea is that I want this to cycle quickly rather than using the ammonia method. Here are my questions:

1) Should what I've done speed up the cycling nicely (and how do I test it, given that there will only be nitrate that shows up)?
2) Anything else I could try? I do have a bottle of "seed" - would it be needed?
3) Since my tank has Ich, am I best to take all the fish out (even the ones not showing signs), treat them in the QT tank, cross my fingers this doesn't stress them to death, and leave my DT fallow for 76 days to rid it of the Ich?
4) Anyone have any tips for feeding blennies in the QT? Mine only eat algae off the rocks. I've never seen them touch the Nori I put in the DT. I contemplated attaching nori to the plastic toys/PVC pipes with elastic in hopes it would mimic it enough to get the blennies eating. They're the fish I worry about the most in the QT. They have marked out their territory in my DT nicely, and the QT is only 36g. I can see them likely to fight constantly.
5) If I'm going to quarantine a whole tank and do a 76-day cycle with prazipro, copper etc., would this be the time to add any new fish I want for the tank? Kind of in a treat-them-all-at-once deal? Or would this stress my already sick fish out even more? I'd have to wait a long time to add other fish otherwise. Not a huge deal, but I'm just wondering if others have had any issues with adding them and treating them all at once?

Thanks everyone!

 

[CanadianReefer]

One last question...
If I leave my tank "fallow" for 76 days to rid my tank of Ich and other diseases, is it possible that any disease/parasite etc could remain viable by living off of my corals, snails, shrimp, urchins, crabs etc?

 

[CanadianReefer]

Okay, it wasn't the last.
Everything I've read on here indicates a copper treatment of 30 days. I picked up some Seachem Cupramine, but the instructions on the bottle are for 14 days only. Since it seems to be at the same .5 level as those suggesting 30 days, should I skip the instructions and do a 30-day cycle??

 

[Humblefish]

1) Should what I've done speed up the cycling nicely (and how do I test it, given that there will only be nitrate that shows up)?
2) Anything else I could try? I do have a bottle of "seed" - would it be needed?

Bacteria in a bottle products (exs. Bio-Spira, Seachem Stability, Dr Tim's Nitrifying Bacteria) work pretty well to quickly cycle a QT.

3) Since my tank has Ich, am I best to take all the fish out (even the ones not showing signs), treat them in the QT tank, cross my fingers this doesn't stress them to death, and leave my DT fallow for 76 days to rid it of the Ich?

If you want to completely eliminate ich from your DT, this is the only way.

4) Anyone have any tips for feeding blennies in the QT? Mine only eat algae off the rocks. I've never seen them touch the Nori I put in the DT. I contemplated attaching nori to the plastic toys/PVC pipes with elastic in hopes it would mimic it enough to get the blennies eating. They're the fish I worry about the most in the QT. They have marked out their territory in my DT nicely, and the QT is only 36g. I can see them likely to fight constantly.

They are generally hardy fish, so they will usually accept other foods in QT before they starve to death. However, you are right that they can be quarrelsome with one another. How many blennies do you have?

5) If I'm going to quarantine a whole tank and do a 76-day cycle with prazipro, copper etc., would this be the time to add any new fish I want for the tank? Kind of in a treat-them-all-at-once deal? Or would this stress my already sick fish out even more? I'd have to wait a long time to add other fish otherwise. Not a huge deal, but I'm just wondering if others have had any issues with adding them and treating them all at once?

It would be better to cure your existing fish first and get them back into the DT. You risk exposing them to something worse than ich (exs. velvet, flukes, bacterial diseases) by QT'ing them simultaneously with new fish.

You could setup a second QT for new fish, but you'd have to be careful not to cross contaminate with wet hands, feeding apparatus, etc.

One last question...
If I leave my tank "fallow" for 76 days to rid my tank of Ich and other diseases, is it possible that any disease/parasite etc could remain viable by living off of my corals, snails, shrimp, urchins, crabs etc?

No, 76 days fallow takes into account the tomont stage of the lifecycle which lives on corals, inverts, etc. The only way 76 days can fail is if you add a new coral/invert during the fallow period, cross contaminate somehow, or possibly encounter an as-of-yet discovered strain of ich that takes longer than 72 days for all the theronts to be released from their tomonts. Highly unlikely for that to happen.

 

[Humblefish]

Okay, it wasn't the last.
Everything I've read on here indicates a copper treatment of 30 days. I picked up some Seachem Cupramine, but the instructions on the bottle are for 14 days only. Since it seems to be at the same .5 level as those suggesting 30 days, should I skip the instructions and do a 30-day cycle??

Yes, treat with copper for 30 days. The 14 day treatment is for FW ich and Amyloodinium (Marine Velvet Disease).

 

[CanadianReefer]

Yes, treat with copper for 30 days. The 14 day treatment is for FW ich and Amyloodinium (Marine Velvet Disease).

Perfect. Thanks Humblefish! 30 days it is.

So, an update... my entire reef DT had to be torn apart on Saturday. I was able to get all my fish out without the destructiveness except, of course, those darn damsels! Grrr. So thanks to them, a full day of breaking apart my beautiful rocks and trying my best not to damage my corals. I was able to remove them though and everyone made it to the QT - stressed, but seemingly unharmed. Not sure about my corals yet. Most seem to be bouncing back, but a few are looking very unhappy....

On the plus side, I like the way that the rocks turned out when we put them back in. We couldn't duplicate what we had previously with any degree of accuracy, but the new shape looks nice. Strange not to see fish roaming around, and Jacques, our cleaner shrimp, looks lost without them (lol) but in the end, I know this was the right thing to do.

I've been ramping up the copper dosage, as per the bottle's instructions. I have 38 more drops left to put in their recommended amount, but I'd like to test tonight before I do that since when I tested yesterday, it was already close to the 0.5 mark.

Has anyone used the Seachem cupramine product? If so, I'm wondering how accurate you found the dosing to be? If a half dose appeared to be close to 0.5 (I'm using the Seachem copper test) then I'm worried to put too much in. I ordered the Salifert copper test too, so I had more than one way to test. I have a 36G bowfront with a bare bottom, some PVC pipe and a few plastic decorations for hiding. According to my calculations, it requires 68 drops of cupramine x 2 (1st day = 68 drops and 3rd day = 68 drops). I spaced it a bit more, put in 38 drops Saturday night, 30 drops Sunday morning, 30 drops this morning, and should, in theory, add another 38 drops this evening. I'm not sure if it's just that the copper test is hard to read, or if the dosing may be a bit off??

Second question.... I put my leopard wrasse in a second QT. From everything I've read, they simply don't tolerate copper and will likely die (plus they need sand, which I didn't want to put in my other QT). I started her (Princess Leia - don't laugh ;-)) on prazipro (she is not showing any signs of Ich presently). Once the prazipro is done, I'd still like to give her some sort of Ich treatment. I purchased the Hikari Ich-X product. Has anyone tried using this with a leopard wrasse? She's still a juvenile, if that makes a difference. She's about 1.5-2 inches right now. I am absolutely in love with the graceful fish, so I want to be very careful about her treatment.

Third question - the leopard wrasse eats mostly copepods and roe. I put a bottle of copepods in with her since I didn't use sand from my DT. Will the prazipro/Ich-X kill them? So far, I still see some swimming around. I just want to make sure she's getting enough nutrients over the next 3 months to remain healthy.

Cheers everyone!

 

[melypr1985]

Has anyone used the Seachem cupramine product? If so, I'm wondering how accurate you found the dosing to be? If a half dose appeared to be close to 0.5 (I'm using the Seachem copper test) then I'm worried to put too much in. I ordered the Salifert copper test too, so I had more than one way to test. I have a 36G bowfront with a bare bottom, some PVC pipe and a few plastic decorations for hiding. According to my calculations, it requires 68 drops of cupramine x 2 (1st day = 68 drops and 3rd day = 68 drops). I spaced it a bit more, put in 38 drops Saturday night, 30 drops Sunday morning, 30 drops this morning, and should, in theory, add another 38 drops this evening. I'm not sure if it's just that the copper test is hard to read, or if the dosing may be a bit off??

The dosing can vary from bottle to bottle.. Testing like you are is very important to be sure you don't over or under-shoot your target range. All you want is for the copper to be at .5 so if you reach that before you finish adding the recommended amount of copper, then stop there.

Second question.... I put my leopard wrasse in a second QT. From everything I've read, they simply don't tolerate copper and will likely die (plus they need sand, which I didn't want to put in my other QT). I started her (Princess Leia - don't laugh ;-)) on prazipro (she is not showing any signs of Ich presently). Once the prazipro is done, I'd still like to give her some sort of Ich treatment. I purchased the Hikari Ich-X product. Has anyone tried using this with a leopard wrasse? She's still a juvenile, if that makes a difference. She's about 1.5-2 inches right now. I am absolutely in love with the graceful fish, so I want to be very careful about her treatment.

You can run her through TTM. I've done that with leopards with no problems. Now, I know a few people who have run leopards through copper safe before without issue, but I can't remember doing it myself. Ich-X is useless and not going to cure ich if it's present. TTM would probably be the best option for this fish if you don't want to put her through copper.

Third question - the leopard wrasse eats mostly copepods and roe. I put a bottle of copepods in with her since I didn't use sand from my DT. Will the prazipro/Ich-X kill them? So far, I still see some swimming around. I just want to make sure she's getting enough nutrients over the next 3 months to remain healthy.

Prazi might not kill the pods, and ich-x shouldn't either, but I still don't see a reason to use the ich-x. now would be a good time to try to get her eating something besides live foods. Mine Blue Star Leopard has taken to eating frozen and pellets. I'm sure you can get yours eating something more convenient with a little persistence.