DIY Ammonia dosing for low nitrate systems

[Bob The Reefer]

You're welcome.

Good luck and happy reefing! :)

Bicarbonate arrived today €5/kg from an online baking shop.

I set it up on a doser head to deliver 15 doses of 1ml in 24hrs (which is not exactly 2x 7.36 but close enough for government work)

I'll report back.

 

[taricha]

I thought of some data we have that's relevant to a question in this thread.
Some people here have contemplated low gradual doses vs a bulk once a day.
@Dan_P provided some data a while back that is likely relevant to the question.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/nitrifying-bacteria-where-are-you.888012/post-9914467

The takeaway is that at very low ammonia concentrations, the nitrifying community does not noticeably scale up, but the higher you go in ammonia concentration - the more the population of nitrifiers will increase in response.
The nitrifying population that Dan used in the experiment didn't really scale up or increase capacity noticeably at concentrations <0.1ppm ammonia.
It looked like at concentrations in the 0.1-0.5ppm range there was some modest ammonia processing increase, and as you go much over 0.5ppm ammonia you get into the "cycling" levels of ammonia and the population will scale up rapidly.
(@Dan_P does this jibe with your interpretation of this data?)

So low gradual doses may do a better job at keeping the nitrifiers from scaling up and starting to compete for the ammonia meant to feed corals, but a bulk dose is more likely to allow competing nitrifiers to scale up.

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

I thought of some data we have that's relevant to a question in this thread.
Some people here have contemplated low gradual doses vs a bulk once a day.
@Dan_P provided some data a while back that is likely relevant to the question.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/nitrifying-bacteria-where-are-you.888012/post-9914467

The takeaway is that at very low ammonia concentrations, the nitrifying community does not noticeably scale up, but the higher you go in ammonia concentration - the more the population of nitrifiers will increase in response.
The nitrifying population that Dan used in the experiment didn't really scale up or increase capacity noticeably at concentrations <0.1ppm ammonia.
It looked like at concentrations in the 0.1-0.5ppm range there was some modest ammonia processing increase, and as you go much over 0.5ppm ammonia you get into the "cycling" levels of ammonia and the population will scale up rapidly.
(@Dan_P does this jibe with your interpretation of this data?)

So low gradual doses may do a better job at keeping the nitrifiers from scaling up and starting to compete for the ammonia meant to feed corals, but a bulk dose is more likely to allow competing nitrifiers to scale up.

Thanks for posting this. I think a lot of us were/are wondering if there is a benefit one way or the other. I guess we could start another bolus thread.

 

[reefsanz]

Hello @Randy Holmes-Farley and colleagues, I wanted to tell you about my evolution with ammonium bicarbonate.
I have been adding it for a while, I started with it with the recommended dose and what happened is that my nitrates went up with each addition I added, I reached 5 nitrate and I stopped adding until it went down again and the time has come when I am on 20ml a day and they continue to go down today if it continues the same or going down I will add another 10ml in total per day it will be 30ml and I will inform you.
and the evolution has been favorable, I have an extension of polyps that I have never had in acroporas
Greetings colleagues

 

[Dan_P]

I thought of some data we have that's relevant to a question in this thread.
Some people here have contemplated low gradual doses vs a bulk once a day.
@Dan_P provided some data a while back that is likely relevant to the question.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/nitrifying-bacteria-where-are-you.888012/post-9914467

The takeaway is that at very low ammonia concentrations, the nitrifying community does not noticeably scale up, but the higher you go in ammonia concentration - the more the population of nitrifiers will increase in response.
The nitrifying population that Dan used in the experiment didn't really scale up or increase capacity noticeably at concentrations <0.1ppm ammonia.
It looked like at concentrations in the 0.1-0.5ppm range there was some modest ammonia processing increase, and as you go much over 0.5ppm ammonia you get into the "cycling" levels of ammonia and the population will scale up rapidly.
(@Dan_P does this jibe with your interpretation of this data?)

So low gradual doses may do a better job at keeping the nitrifiers from scaling up and starting to compete for the ammonia meant to feed corals, but a bulk dose is more likely to allow competing nitrifiers to scale up.

Yes, the population of nitrifiers reaches a size that is supported by the amount of ammonia available. Also, these bacteria seem resilient to depletion of ammonia and a population might not decrease as fast as it increases with a decline in ammonia. This resiliency and relatively long doubling time might make the bolus v continuous ammonia dosing effect tiny.

Other factors that affect the ammonia duration in the water (and available to coral) are the C:N ratio and micro algae population. Carbon dosing or just high carbon content food would make the aquarium water a very efficient ammonia scrubber. Likewise, micro algae sitting on top of the bacteria biofilm or in the water would have first grabs on the ammonia. These and other effects complicates things to the point where I struggle to argue that the nitrifier population can be affected by how one doses the ammonia to an aquarium.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Hello @Randy Holmes-Farley and colleagues, I wanted to tell you about my evolution with ammonium bicarbonate.
I have been adding it for a while, I started with it with the recommended dose and what happened is that my nitrates went up with each addition I added, I reached 5 nitrate and I stopped adding until it went down again and the time has come when I am on 20ml a day and they continue to go down today if it continues the same or going down I will add another 10ml in total per day it will be 30ml and I will inform you.
and the evolution has been favorable, I have an extension of polyps that I have never had in acroporas
Greetings colleagues

Thanks for the info. I can’t perfectly explain the results you see, but I can certainly see that it may take time for some organisms to swap over from ammonia to nitrate and back again. That may make settling on a perfect dose a slow process.

 

[taricha]

These and other effects complicates things to the point where I struggle to argue that the nitrifier population can be affected by how one doses the ammonia to an aquarium.

Agree. It's pretty hard to say anything confidently about how much the nitrifiers will respond to the sorts of ammonia dosing that people are doing here.
If I have to flip a coin between 1x day and dosing gradually, and I have a doser handy - I think I lean toward keeping the dose low and gradual, just based on the fact that we do have data that suggests at low ammonia levels nitrifiers consume ammonia without noticeably expanding population and at higher levels, they clearly scale up population.

People have been doing ammonia dosing long enough that some have aquabiomics reports. Here's Andrew Bouwma (around 38 minutes) discussing the fact that ammonia dosing caused a very concrete measurable increase in alkalinity demand, but the nitrifying community was seemingly not much changed.


the key slide is this one. (ammonia oxidizers "AOM" at the bottom)

While I don't think aquabiomics is the most sensitive way to quantify nitrifiers, it's interesting that coral growth is such a clear signal by calcification, while nitrifiers still look similar population size. But it is consistent with Dan's more sensitive nitrifier accounting.

The picture seems to be that low dose ammonia in the water during lights-on is mostly going to photosynthetic organisms. nitrification in a mature reef tank is usually a small role.

 

[drawman]

Agree. It's pretty hard to say anything confidently about how much the nitrifiers will respond to the sorts of ammonia dosing that people are doing here.
If I have to flip a coin between 1x day and dosing gradually, and I have a doser handy - I think I lean toward keeping the dose low and gradual, just based on the fact that we do have data that suggests at low ammonia levels nitrifiers consume ammonia without noticeably expanding population and at higher levels, they clearly scale up population.

People have been doing ammonia dosing long enough that some have aquabiomics reports. Here's Andrew Bouwma (around 38 minutes) discussing the fact that ammonia dosing caused a very concrete measurable increase in alkalinity demand, but the nitrifying community was seemingly not much changed.


the key slide is this one. (ammonia oxidizers "AOM" at the bottom)

While I don't think aquabiomics is the most sensitive way to quantify nitrifiers, it's interesting that coral growth is such a clear signal by calcification, while nitrifiers still look similar population size. But it is consistent with Dan's more sensitive nitrifier accounting.

The picture seems to be that low dose ammonia in the water during lights-on is mostly going to photosynthetic organisms. nitrification in a mature reef tank is usually a small role.

Do you remember other than the nitrifiers...did the bacterial diversity improve for the better?

I really want to get ammonia bicarb on a doser but struggle with the lack of redundancy (would hate to have a toxic overdose). Any thoughts other than limiting the amount of ammonia in the dosing container?

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

If I have to flip a coin between 1x day and dosing gradually, and I have a doser handy - I think I lean toward keeping the dose low and gradual, just based on the fact that we do have data that suggests at low ammonia levels nitrifiers consume ammonia without noticeably expanding population and at higher levels, they clearly scale up population.

I’ve been dosing over 24hrs (even doses roughly every 15 minutes or so) for over a year now I think. I will say that my filter fleece consumption skyrocketed immediately. One roll used to last me 4-5 months (historically over close to six years now) and now is reduced to 2, if I’m lucky. The only change was dosing ammonium (well, I did start vinegar a while back but that was recently and well after noticing the increased fleece consumption). I’m of the belief that even with dosing spread out over 24hrs that I’m fueling bacterial population growth in the filter. I’m not sure what the effect would be if I switched to bolus dosing. I’ve thought that maybe I’m dosing too much, making more ammonium available than the corals can use but if I cut the dosing back at all then nitrate starts to drop. This is all speculation by a layman by the way. I’ve been kicking around the idea of just pulling the filter out. I did run fleeceless for about a month with no ill effects as a test of sorts. It’s just that I have mechanical filtration imprinted in my brain from youth and start having withdrawals and DTs without.

 

[Formulator]

I really want to get ammonia bicarb on a doser but struggle with the lack of redundancy (would hate to have a toxic overdose). Any thoughts other than limiting the amount of ammonia in the dosing container?

Do you have a controller? Most will allow you to put a run time limit on the pump. With my apex for example, I have an overarching bit of code that will completely cut power to the dosing pump if it runs continuously for more than 30 seconds. Without a controller, you could get creative with a simple outlet timer set to only give power to the pump at times of the day and for duration that aligns with when you programmed the pump to run.

 

[Pod_01]

I will say that my filter fleece consumption skyrocketed immediately.

Say what!!!

I’m of the belief that even with dosing spread out over 24hrs that I’m fueling bacterial population growth in the filter.

That is interesting…

Why not just remove the filter fleece? Based on the observation it just speeds up ammonia consumption/ conversion…

I believe the intent is to get ammonia to the corals, not to grow bacteria on the filter fleece…
Maybe I am missing something!

These days for filtration I only use skimmer and GAC. I removed all other types of filtration long ago (socks, bio bricks etc…). I always had elevated NO3 and unhappy corals with them. Just my observation so it may be applicable to my tank.

 

[Formulator]

Thanks for this great thread. Not sure how I’m just now stumbling upon it…

Some reef aquaria have chronic low nitrogen availability.

I’m curious - what do we know about why some tanks end up in this state? My 9 year old tank is chronically nitrogen limited and I need to dose nitrate daily to keep from bottoming out. My tank is not overly clean and I have a respectable bioload. I don’t do any water changes and instead dose all trace elements.

My tank was not always like this and I had employed carbon dosing in the past (5+ years ago) to control nitrates. I then had a period of neglect which essentially involved 100% hands off the system for 2-3 years. It got pretty ugly and I lost almost all corals and a majority of fish, which were just left to decay (bodies never recovered and their bones are now part of my sand bed). The skimmer was left overflowing, no water changes, no dosing, minimal feeding. I would have expected this to cause a runaway nutrient issue, but over this past year of rebooting the tank, I’ve been in this chronic nitrogen limited state. Why?

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

Say what!!!


That is interesting…

Why not just remove the filter fleece? Based on the observation it just speeds up ammonia consumption/ conversion…

I believe the intent is to get ammonia to the corals, not to grow bacteria on the filter fleece…
Maybe I am missing something!

These days for filtration I only use skimmer and GAC. I removed all other types of filtration long ago (socks, bio bricks etc…). I always had elevated NO3 and unhappy corals with them. Just my observation so it may be applicable to my tank.

I did go fleeceless for about a month. Like I said, it’s a mental thing. I start jonesing for a fix at some point and just have to go back for more. I do have some fish and ogo on order. I’ll give it another go without fleece when I have the ogo growing in the sump. I’ve never been an algae farm type person (especially considering my tank is low n already) but I’d feel a little better ditching the fleece if I were growing some tang food in its place.

 

[drawman]

Do you have a controller? Most will allow you to put a run time limit on the pump. With my apex for example, I have an overarching bit of code that will completely cut power to the dosing pump if it runs continuously for more than 30 seconds. Without a controller, you could get creative with a simple outlet timer set to only give power to the pump at times of the day and for duration that aligns with when you programmed the pump to run.

I do have an apex. Can you share that code?

I'm trying to think of worst case. I had another apex that died with a power surge and kept a heater on (even though it was set to fallback OFF) which started to overheat the tank. I toy around with the idea that maybe a versa would be safer. I guess they all will have their failure points.

 

[Formulator]

I do have an apex. Can you share that code?

I'm trying to think of worst case. I had another apex that died with a power surge and kept a heater on (even though it was set to fallback OFF) which started to overheat the tank. I toy around with the idea that maybe a versa would be safer. I guess they all will have their failure points.

Sure thing. The code “When On > mmm:ss Then OFF” can be used to turn any outlet off if it has been running continuously for the time specified in the mmm:ss field. It will override any auto setting and flip the outlet permanently to the OFF position. You will need to keep tabs on the outlet because if that line of code trips the power off, it will not turn back on or go back to your automation until you manually flip the slider in apex back to “auto”. This way it forces you to investigate and fix the problem before going back to dosing. I also use this code for my ATO just with a longer duration.

 

[taricha]

Do you remember other than the nitrifiers...did the bacterial diversity improve for the better?

Not my data, but in the context of that discussion, they did not note any important changes to the microbiome that could be attributed to ammonia. The one thing you would look for was increased ammonia oxidizers, and that stayed the same.

I really want to get ammonia bicarb on a doser but struggle with the lack of redundancy (would hate to have a toxic overdose). Any thoughts other than limiting the amount of ammonia in the dosing container?

A slower pump, a smaller volume in the dosing container, or a more dilute solution can all be used to ensure that even if something gets stuck in the ON phase, it would just be bad and not fatal.
Formulator mentioned some coding ways too.

I’ve been dosing over 24hrs (even doses roughly every 15 minutes or so) for over a year now I think. I will say that my filter fleece consumption skyrocketed immediately.

Odd asking this given your screenname, but do you know if the roller fleece was discolored the same amount when the usage increased, or did it look lighter?
If photosynthetic cells in the water increased in growth, then the roller mat would stay discolored, but if we are growing more nitrifying biofilm in the mat then it would be mostly clear. All that said, roller fleece or filter sock represents an ideal situation for ammonia dosing in the water to grow more nitrifying biofilm.

 

[Formulator]

All that said, roller fleece or filter sock represents an ideal situation for ammonia dosing in the water to grow more nitrifying biofilm.

I would agree on the socks, but isn’t one of the main draws of a roller fleece that it does not leave the captured organics in the water column for any significant period of time?

 

[taricha]

I would agree on the socks, but isn’t one of the main draws of a roller fleece that it does not leave the captured organics in the water column for any significant period of time?

Never used one so I don't know if they roll at a rate that might outpace biofilm growth or not, but biofilm is usually pretty unavoidable!

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

Not my data, but in the context of that discussion, they did not note any important changes to the microbiome that could be attributed to ammonia. The one thing you would look for was increased ammonia oxidizers, and that stayed the same.


A slower pump, a smaller volume in the dosing container, or a more dilute solution can all be used to ensure that even if something gets stuck in the ON phase, it would just be bad and not fatal.
Formulator mentioned some coding ways too.


Odd asking this given your screenname, but do you know if the roller fleece was discolored the same amount when the usage increased, or did it look lighter?
If photosynthetic cells in the water increased in growth, then the roller mat would stay discolored, but if we are growing more nitrifying biofilm in the mat then it would be mostly clear. All that said, roller fleece or filter sock represents an ideal situation for ammonia dosing in the water to grow more nitrifying biofilm.

Ha! I can see, but I can’t…it’s complicated. No detail vision at all, just a dizzying, blurry mess. With that, I can see color and tell the difference between items of high contrast at a certain scale of size. I will say that the fleece was historically dark brown (think used coffee filter) before ammonium. While dosing ammonium it’s changed to a much lighter yellow/green/brown? Much more opaque if that makes any sense. It also doesn’t stink half as bad as it used to. That’s what’s given me the impression that it’s bacterial.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thanks for this great thread. Not sure how I’m just now stumbling upon it…



I’m curious - what do we know about why some tanks end up in this state? My 9 year old tank is chronically nitrogen limited and I need to dose nitrate daily to keep from bottoming out. My tank is not overly clean and I have a respectable bioload. I don’t do any water changes and instead dose all trace elements.

My tank was not always like this and I had employed carbon dosing in the past (5+ years ago) to control nitrates. I then had a period of neglect which essentially involved 100% hands off the system for 2-3 years. It got pretty ugly and I lost almost all corals and a majority of fish, which were just left to decay (bodies never recovered and their bones are now part of my sand bed). The skimmer was left overflowing, no water changes, no dosing, minimal feeding. I would have expected this to cause a runaway nutrient issue, but over this past year of rebooting the tank, I’ve been in this chronic nitrogen limited state. Why?

I think the simplistic answer is more consumers than producers, while many new tanks add fish before many consumers such as corals.