Dosing All for Reef

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Will eventually have to dust off my old Calcium Reactor when all for reef can't keep up.

Presumably that means when your wallet cannot keep up, as it otherwise has almost no limitation.

 

[Troylee]

Presumably that means when your wallet cannot keep up, as it otherwise has almost no limitation.

Pretty much… kalk with all for reef can keep any tank going for much less than all for reef on its own..

 

[Skard]

Presumably that means when your wallet cannot keep up, as it otherwise has almost no limitation.

You are correct! I figure the cost will be pretty high when I have a full tank of SPS versus the cost of a reactor?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

! I figure the cost will be pretty high when I have a full tank of SPS versus the cost of a reactor?

Yes, it will. lol

 

[Seansea]

After using all for reef for a year i have noticed a couple things. I use alk as the testing parameter and keep it steady at 8.3. But calcium will climb higher than alk. My calcium after about 6 months was up to 520. Mag was opposite and tested out around 1200 and i would see my euphelia skulling. And not just one but all of em. It also does not keep up with some traces if using an ATS. i still have to dose captiv8 traces in my ato. I put a heaping teaspoon of sodium bicarbonate in my ato as well to use less AFR for price and so calcium doesnt get to high.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

After using all for reef for a year i have noticed a couple things. I use alk as the testing parameter and keep it steady at 8.3. But calcium will climb higher than alk. My calcium after about 6 months was up to 520. Mag was opposite and tested out around 1200 and i would see my euphelia skulling. And not just one but all of em. It also does not keep up with some traces if using an ATS. i still have to dose captiv8 traces in my ato. I put a heaping teaspoon of sodium bicarbonate in my ato as well to use less AFR for price and so calcium doesnt get to high.

Yes, AFR is slightly overbalanced to more calcium than alk, just like kalkwasser is.

 

[bensoo00]

If you want to change water for other reasons, I’d keep doing so. If you were doing it for calcium and alk, then I’d skip it.

Ok so I did not do the water change for 2 weeks and from that last reading of 8.3, the alk went to 10.something. I also have a bottle of seachem reef complete. My nitrates are in a spot that I like so should I just keep up the weekly water change or would it be smarter to make use of the reef complete / AFR dosage?

 

[Dorsetsteve]

I used All for Reef for about two years I suppose. You really need to read the instructions and the number of threads/posts I see about the product where the instructions clearly haven’t been more than glanced over is very high.

Typically it’s best to set the dose of the calcium use as this tends to be slightly less, dosing based off the Alkalinity tends to result in excess calcium. That’s not always the case however.

I found best practice for me was to test/react to 48 hour cycles, this is because it takes time for the product to “settle” for testing. I based my dose of calcium and found that I was typically 1dKH a week short of stable Alkalinity, at which point I would add approximately 1dKH to my auto top off. This kept things pretty stable.

I moved away from AFR back to two part for more control as effectively I was still doing two part, albeit in a very minor way.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ok so I did not do the water change for 2 weeks and from that last reading of 8.3, the alk went to 10.something. I also have a bottle of seachem reef complete. My nitrates are in a spot that I like so should I just keep up the weekly water change or would it be smarter to make use of the reef complete / AFR dosage?

To clarify, the alk is rising and calcium is normal to high? I’d reduce dosing dosing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Typically it’s best to set the dose of the calcium use as this tends to be slightly less, dosing based off the Alkalinity tends to result in excess calcium. That’s not always the case however.

I do not agree that dosing based off calcium is best. It moves too slowly with too much day to day testing variability to be the best choice. Basing the dosing off alk is better, as long as folks know it takes a bit of time for the alk to show up.

 

[twentyleagues]

Ok so I did not do the water change for 2 weeks and from that last reading of 8.3, the alk went to 10.something. I also have a bottle of seachem reef complete. My nitrates are in a spot that I like so should I just keep up the weekly water change or would it be smarter to make use of the reef complete / AFR dosage?

No water change in 2 weeks. Have you been using afr? Reef complete is mostly calcium. What is your calcium at? If you have been dosing afr it sounds like you are dosing too much. Your alk has increased I am betting your calcium has also increased. You need to figure out how much your reef is actually using. To do so you need to stop dosing and start testing daily. Write your numbers down every day for a week and you should see a trend, test at the same time or as close to it you can. No water change, no dosing. If nitrate and phosphate stay the same something is using it or the ammonia before its converted. When you have your trend you can make a decision. If phosphate and nitrate stay at a level you are happy with and alk and/or calcium are dropping you need to dose. If nitrates and phosphates are rising more then you like and calc and alk are same or less water change. Your fresh mixed salt water should be a higher level of alk and calc then tank water if you are not dosing and you have coral using elements. Either way test after for a few days and see your trend again. If you dose and the numbers are getting higher not staying where you want them cut your dose either frequency or amount.

This process takes a bit of time to get right, and a lot of testing. My 23ml was slowly rising my alk level by about .1dkh/2 days I had just stopped testing daily because it seemed stable for a week at that dose. Tests can be off by .2-.3 dkh. After about 7 days of not testing my alk went from 8.6 to 9.1. I stopped dosing and waited a week testing every other day alk slowly dropped to 8.4. So if tests are accurate my usage is .7dkh in 7 days or .1dkh/day. What does that mean for dosing? not sure . I am sure there is math somewhere but I didnt see it. So I started dosing again this time 10ml every 2 days. Still testing to see where I am at. Being mostly euphillia I may not have a steady usage, unlike sps that can grow continuously by the same amount daily seems these guy like to grow in spurts. After I moved my corals to this tank 2 hammers decided to split multiple heads at the same time one went from 3 to 7 the other split 2 into 4. Once they did that I think consumption went down a bit.

 

[Dorsetsteve]

I do not agree that dosing based off calcium is best. It moves too slowly with too much day to day testing variability to be the best choice. Basing the dosing off alk is better, as long as folks know it takes a bit of time for the alk to show up.

After using the product for an extended period I respectfully disagree and personally found that was the best method in my experience. It’s important to reinforce though, each aquarium will behave differently and provided the user throughly reads the comprehensive instructions the product is very simple to use.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

After using the product for an extended period I respectfully disagree and personally found that was the best method in my experience. It’s important to reinforce though, each aquarium will behave differently and provided the user throughly reads the comprehensive instructions the product is very simple to use.

Well, ok. What happened that was a problem when you dosed based on alk demand?

 

[Seansea]

Gonna assume his calcium got high. Def happens for me. Other traces and magnesium stay low. But not sure if he had a bad situation of super high calcium and precipitated. Mine got to 520 then i cut back my AFR dose and went sodium bicarbonate in my top off. Calcium stays around 420 now with alk in solid at 8.3. Have to add some other traces due to scrubber chewing stuff up pretty fast.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Gonna assume his calcium got high. Def happens for me. Other traces and magnesium stay low. But not sure if he had a bad situation of super high calcium and precipitated. Mine got to 520 then i cut back my AFR dose and went sodium bicarbonate in my top off. Calcium stays around 420 now with alk in solid at 8.3. Have to add some other traces due to scrubber chewing stuff up pretty fast.

Yes, that’s the expected result with both AFR and kalkwasser. It contains a bit too much calcium per unit of alk.

That imbalance is not solved by dosing based on calcium. It just shifts it to alkalinity dropping at steady calcium.

In both cases, the answer can be some alk dosed without calcium, or water changes (I did the latter using normal IO changing 1% daily).

 

[ReeferZ1227]

I dose kalk and AFR and have been for almost 2 years.

My 125gal drinks about 3 liters of kalk and another 60mL of AFR per day, and growing. I try to match half of my dkh/day to half from AFR.

I also check calcium once a month or two as i have never found it to be in an unacceptable range, and have never corrected for it. All of my dosing for AFR and kalk is entirely dependent on alk test results.

Dosing AFR is kind of like dosing salt without changing salinity, is the way i think about it.

I consider the AFR to replenish trace and other major elements being consumed in my tank and minimize consumption imbalances as Im lazy with WC. AFR is more for the team no water change crowd in general. With your tank as young as it is, you are likely throwing money down the drain with AFR and WCs depending on frequency and volume of WC.

I would recommend you evaluate why youre doing what youre doing and the economics of it, then make a decision that you feel will lead to the most stability and success, even if thats to continue on the path you are.

 

[Dorsetsteve]

Well, ok. What happened that was a problem when you dosed based on alk demand?

As below. If I continued to chase alkalinity then calcium would accumulate. This did not become problematic as I followed the instructions below as per the product instructions.

By maintaining Calcium with the dose and topping up Alkalinity as required, which was typically 0.1dKh daily (or 1dKh per 10 days if you prefer) I retained stability. This was as simple as adding a very small quantity of BiCarbonate to the top off tank. At one stage I actually experienced several months where supplemental adjustments to the alkalinity where not required.

I have respect for your knowledge of chemistry Randy and I’m sure that there is a sound principal behind your decision but I feel we are over complicating things, the bottom line is. Read and follow the instructions.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have respect for your knowledge of chemistry Randy and I’m sure that there is a sound principal behind your decision but I feel we are over complicating things, the bottom line is. Read and follow the instructions.

Then we will just have to agree to disagree. Obviously how to best use it is an opinion, and folks may have different ones. If something works for you, there's no reason to change.

I understand what you are saying, I simply disagree with it (which means I also disagree with Tropic Marin) There's nothing complicated about adjusting dose based on alk, and IMO, it is a better way.

it may have worked out for you to dose off of calcium, but in general, I believe that calcium testing is too variable and calcium consumption is too slow to make adjustments readily using calcium testing.

In the end, dosing control of AFR is only a little different than dosing control of kalkwasser ( another single liquid product with an identical ratio of calcium to alk as AFR) and for years, most have agreed that alk testing is the better way to adjust the dose than is calcium testing.