Experience with algae scrubbers

[Chris Spaulding]

I just pulled my ATS out of the sump last week as I was not getting any harvistable algae out of my scrubber over a 6 to 7 week period. I do know that I had too much going on with my filtration. ATS / Biopellets / Oversized skimmer / Roller / and Powerfilter. I feel that the ATS and Bio pellets were working against each other. ATM my Po4 holding steady at .08 and No3 at 6.1 and since pulling the scrubber my Skimmer has not produce any skim mate.
I ran the scrubber for almost 6 month before this.

 

[Turbo's Aquatics]

I'll do my best to catch up after skimming the thread

So I run a CW-50 clearwater scrubber on my 106 gallon system (80 DT, 26 sump). I'm trying to use it to keep my nitrates around 10 and my phos around .1. That has not happened yet. Early on I was running it 24/7 and it bottomed out my nitrates and had my phos at .06. I got dinos for a couple weeks, so I turned it off and let the "dirty" run up so the dinos would go away (they did). Today I'm around 25 nitrates and .3 phos. I don't think it's that big of a deal, but I'd like to see if I can get this ATS dialed in. I was running it for about 12 hours opposite my DT LED schedule, I just dialed the time up for 20 hours a day to see if that will curb nutrients.

Does anyone have any experience with an ATS and what are you using for a lighting schedule for it? What are the benefits you see from it? How is it impacting your nutrient levels?

I may go another route if this ATS doesn't get dialed in and do what I expected it to do.

Everyone's setup is different, so what works for one doesn't necessarily work for another. That's by far the main difficulty in weeding through advice.

CW50 on a 100g is not necessarily "too small", obviously it bottomed out your N/P so that's not the case. Getting to a balance point with your specific system is the key.

The things you can typically adjust are:

Light photoperiod
Light intensity (either with dimming, diffusion, or shading)
Water flow rate (nutrient delivery)

Are you feeding pellets or frozen and at what frequency? I switched from all pellet to mainly frozen and that seemed to help my PO4.

I wonder if running light 20 hours per day would cause photosaturation?

You are probably aware, but there is a good deal of information here: AlgaeScrubbing

Photoinhibition or photosaturation is an instantaneous factor, meaning, related to the intensity (not the duration).

I do 2 feedings + nori twice a day - I am a generous feeder (frenzy and mysis)

It’s funny you brought that website up, I quoted that on a Facebook post when discussing it and the owner of Clearwater got on and insulted my intelligence and told me they don’t know anything. Lol. So ya, if I hadn’t bought a Clearwater brand by then I would have not after that. Totally unprofessional. I believe it was specifically concerning the need to use no light or “rest” the algae culture for best results.

Do you have other filtration in play? I didn't see it mentioned but then again, I skimmed the thread quickly

Regarding the need for a "dark period" - I'm of the opinion that this is not necessary. That primarily comes from discussion/evidence related to house plant type photosynthesis. At the root of the discussion is actually the cellular mechanism, and what holds true for plants does not necessarily hold true for algaes. There's room for discussion on this but many have shown that 24/7 lighting on an algae scrubber (specifically) does not cause negative growth compared to a cycle with a rest period. The dark period also came from Dr. Otto Warburg who besides discovering the root cause of cancer, also figured out that if you "flash" algae with light 10% of the time (90% dark period, at something like 7 kHz I believe) that you get the same level of production as if you lit it constantly. Now that doesn't mean you only need 2.4 hours of light per day, but the "dark" cycle is slower to complete and this has to do with flashing. The nice thing here is that water flowing across the algae mat causes glimmer lines (like in a tidal pol or swimming pool) so this is actually happening already in most scrubbers.

The real issue is: can your scrubber handle 24/7 lighting? The answer here should be "if" - if you have progressed through ramping up growth by increasing photoperiod, flow, and intensity over time. And also if you have a sufficient bioload and level or diversity to warrant it (to support the scrubber)

I held back from saying "only if" because there are always exceptions....

I've been thinking about this - so I've decided to ask 3 questions to ATS users:

1. Is the nutrient removal consistent and/or measurable? Meaning if the screen is "full" I see 30% less reduction in Nitrate/Phoshate or when the screen is new I know that my nitrates will drop by 5ppm, etc.

2. Using an ATS causes nutrient depletion so I dose X. Backed up by an ICP or titration test.

3. Using a 24 hour light cycle is less efficient than 18 hour....or 12 hour is better than 14 hour....any facts to back that up

BONUS QUESTION: What piece of equipment, or dosing, or whatever to you think the ATS is replacing? If any? Would you say they are a standard in your setups? A nice feature to have? Totally unnecessary?

1) Josh with Clear Water actually found a lab (happens to be literally 10 miles from my house) that can test algae samples for nutrient content. This stems out of a lot of FB and in person discussion with some of those high profile reefkeepers, basically it came out that apparently no one has ever actually tested algae nutrient content post-harvest...they've just always gone by what some book says.

2) I've got no opinion here, except that it's generally understood that trace elements will get sucked down, and this again can be variable from one system to another. I feel this can be affected also by your frequency of water changes, what salt you use, etc...

3) All dependent on the specific system. One answer doesn't not apply to all. Specific to my units, this is why I feel dimming is absolutely critical. It's the instantaneous factor (intensity of light; rate of individual photons hitting algal cells and causing photosynthesis) that is the most influential - duration and flow are of much less effect. If you have too many photos hitting too few algal cells, you get photosaturation. Going back to the light/dark cycle: the "light" cycle fills a bucket with energy (a simplification). The "dark" cycle empties this bucket into another part of the cycle. If the "dark" cycle can't happen well, the buckets all stay full and everything slows down (or just stops). Dimming combined with the glitter-line effect allows one to "tweak" the process until you get the best growth for your specific system. Remember - intensity is the most influential factor.

 

[DeniseAndy]

I have always used a DIY algae scrubber on my systems. I have tried a few types, but always end up back with an Upflow on the glass/acrylic system. They have always been great for me. Now, I do not measure parameters, so no help on what it does to those.
However, it significantly helps maintain a PH through the system (I have it on a 16hr light schedule) through the day. I can see this on my APEX graph.
I see much less algae in the main display.
I pull about each week and it is nice dark green full of pods.

My UAS on my 40g is still tuning in, so still getting the nasty jelly like stuff, but that is probably due to very little algae in the system after a Fluconazole treatment. It will come back around. Just takes time.

I swear by my UAS for helping maintain a balanced system. It is not instantaneous. Takes months to get it stable. Come on the ocean has had lots more time to get stable.

 

[BanjoBandito]

I'll do my best to catch up after skimming the thread

Everyone's setup is different, so what works for one doesn't necessarily work for another. That's by far the main difficulty in weeding through advice.

CW50 on a 100g is not necessarily "too small", obviously it bottomed out your N/P so that's not the case. Getting to a balance point with your specific system is the key.

The things you can typically adjust are:

Light photoperiod
Light intensity (either with dimming, diffusion, or shading)
Water flow rate (nutrient delivery)


Photoinhibition or photosaturation is an instantaneous factor, meaning, related to the intensity (not the duration).

Do you have other filtration in play? I didn't see it mentioned but then again, I skimmed the thread quickly

Regarding the need for a "dark period" - I'm of the opinion that this is not necessary. That primarily comes from discussion/evidence related to house plant type photosynthesis. At the root of the discussion is actually the cellular mechanism, and what holds true for plants does not necessarily hold true for algaes. There's room for discussion on this but many have shown that 24/7 lighting on an algae scrubber (specifically) does not cause negative growth compared to a cycle with a rest period. The dark period also came from Dr. Otto Warburg who besides discovering the root cause of cancer, also figured out that if you "flash" algae with light 10% of the time (90% dark period, at something like 7 kHz I believe) that you get the same level of production as if you lit it constantly. Now that doesn't mean you only need 2.4 hours of light per day, but the "dark" cycle is slower to complete and this has to do with flashing. The nice thing here is that water flowing across the algae mat causes glimmer lines (like in a tidal pol or swimming pool) so this is actually happening already in most scrubbers.

The real issue is: can your scrubber handle 24/7 lighting? The answer here should be "if" - if you have progressed through ramping up growth by increasing photoperiod, flow, and intensity over time. And also if you have a sufficient bioload and level or diversity to warrant it (to support the scrubber)

I held back from saying "only if" because there are always exceptions....

1) Josh with Clear Water actually found a lab (happens to be literally 10 miles from my house) that can test algae samples for nutrient content. This stems out of a lot of FB and in person discussion with some of those high profile reefkeepers, basically it came out that apparently no one has ever actually tested algae nutrient content post-harvest...they've just always gone by what some book says.

2) I've got no opinion here, except that it's generally understood that trace elements will get sucked down, and this again can be variable from one system to another. I feel this can be affected also by your frequency of water changes, what salt you use, etc...

3) All dependent on the specific system. One answer doesn't not apply to all. Specific to my units, this is why I feel dimming is absolutely critical. It's the instantaneous factor (intensity of light; rate of individual photons hitting algal cells and causing photosynthesis) that is the most influential - duration and flow are of much less effect. If you have too many photos hitting too few algal cells, you get photosaturation. Going back to the light/dark cycle: the "light" cycle fills a bucket with energy (a simplification). The "dark" cycle empties this bucket into another part of the cycle. If the "dark" cycle can't happen well, the buckets all stay full and everything slows down (or just stops). Dimming combined with the glitter-line effect allows one to "tweak" the process until you get the best growth for your specific system. Remember - intensity is the most influential factor.

When I bottomed out my nutrients I had little to almost nothing in the tank other than rock and a few transferred corals and "deathstar" the neon dottyback, named after my son. A TRUE TERROR. So it made sense then why it happened...I was kinda tinkering to see what it could do.

Flash forward to today, I have about 5 fish in here and a load of corals, and I feed. Oh boy do I feed. I enjoy feeding my corals and fish. So today, I'm at about 30 nitrates and .3 phosphates. I don't have much algae problems in the display (is that the scrubber?). I have been ramping this ATS up for about 6 weeks now, and currently I'm at about 18 hours of light, opposite (as much as possible) as the DT. It doesn't seem to keep the PH up during lights off with my PH going down to around 8 at night. I'm not sure any of that matters (PH) but I thought it would do more. It also hasn't budged my nutrients. It's doing SOMETHING....but not what I expected. I expected measurable results from going from having it OFF to 18 hours over that time frame. Before I turned it back on my numbers were stable at above numbers.

My other filtration is pretty bare bones - just a skimmer and some rock in the sump. When I put this together I had myself convinced I could do most of the filtration stability with the ATS. That does not appear to be the case. And let's be honest here - these are pretty high priced algae growers. I should have DIY'd one but I didn't want the light spill. I've had sumps go rouge and I was lazy and didn't wanna deal with it. The screen on the CW-50 is 6x6". and is rated to remove "2 cubes of mysis" a day of nutrient build up. Currently that's about what I feed twice a day (cube in the AM, cube in the PM, mixed with frenzy).

My water change schedule is TODAY (so on Monday's) I change about 10-20 gallons out depending on how much dirt I kick up cleaning the glass, sand, etc. Sometimes I don't do much, sometimes I really try and get all the schmootz off the rocks, etc. Just depends, but the volume is consistent.

So I'm at this stage of ATS ownership:

1. Buyer's remorse. This was an unfamiliar nutrient export for me and I thought it would do more.

2. Not understanding the function exactly. It doesn't appear to be taking care of the nutrients as expected. I assumed if I turned it off I would see nitrates go up and phosphates go up. That hasn't been true. What is this thing doing? I'm not that concerned about trace elements due to my WC regimen.

3. There's no good instructions or directions on these things. I don't know if it's because it's the "new hot girl" in class - even though the concept has been around - or just a total lack of clarity or install base. I noticed some of the large tanks I always drooled about were running them, so that swayed me to do it, but they are also running refugiums. That's something I don't have room for right now.

So now I'm going to start carbon dosing this tank to get the nutrients a little lower (I'd like to be at 10 nitrates and .1 phos honestly...that's where I like it, that's where I've had success in the past, that's how I was taught). But I don't wanna take my PH below 8 on purpose with it. I'm also, again, a little frustrated that I even have to carbon dose. Unless things change or I see real benefits or someone says YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG then I'm probably not going to have this unit installed in the future. I approach this hobby with a big ol' salty dose of skeptical. I've had a LFS tell me to feed garlic to prevent ich. It's come full circle. There's no good informative resources for the average hobbyist. I appreciate that you are knee deep in these things, that you have time and access to scientific data, but the truth is - we don't. All I have is people on a forum screaming about how Randy works for Vibrant or if they can get a queen angel for their nano because "they'll upgrade later".

Thank you for the reply!

 

[Turbo's Aquatics]

I would not assume that water changes are providing the proper full replenishment of all trace elements. Scrubbers are very much a bio-interactive system. If one particular trace element becomes limited enough, you can still get algae growth (volume) but nutrient uptake might stall. It sounds weird but we've seen this happening at scale - meaning, in large scale coral grow-out systems.

It's also worth mentioning that a dynamically growing mat of algae will populate with bacteria, and harvesting the algae also harvests the bacteria.

So your scrubber is effectively also performs the end-effect of carbon dosing. Carbon dosing helps bacterial colonies grow, consuming nutrients in the process. CD systems promote heavy skimming to thin out that population (that's the export mechanism). Zeo systems grow biofilm on the zeo, you shake it daily and skim that out. Similar thing. Except with algae, you remove the algae/bacteria biomass in one shot. It's not exactly the same comparison, just realize you are actually able to do more than just export nutrients with algae when using an algae scrubber.

 

[BanjoBandito]

I would not assume that water changes are providing the proper full replenishment of all trace elements. Scrubbers are very much a bio-interactive system. If one particular trace element becomes limited enough, you can still get algae growth (volume) but nutrient uptake might stall. It sounds weird but we've seen this happening at scale - meaning, in large scale coral grow-out systems.

It's also worth mentioning that a dynamically growing mat of algae will populate with bacteria, and harvesting the algae also harvests the bacteria.

So your scrubber is effectively also performs the end-effect of carbon dosing. Carbon dosing helps bacterial colonies grow, consuming nutrients in the process. CD systems promote heavy skimming to thin out that population (that's the export mechanism). Zeo systems grow biofilm on the zeo, you shake it daily and skim that out. Similar thing. Except with algae, you remove the algae/bacteria biomass in one shot. It's not exactly the same comparison, just realize you are actually able to do more than just export nutrients with algae when using an algae scrubber.

Let me ask you this - do you have ANY systems that you are aware of that are using scrubbers for the only filtration or is it always a secondary or tertiary filtration system? What is your marketing pitch for your scrubbers? What is the elevator pitch? What are you saying that this device will do and do better in my aquarium?

On the trace elements...is a scrubber pulling out more trace than necessary? Are you saying scrubbers can deplete certain "important" elements faster and therefore create a problem? If that is true, should that be known? Basically if this thing is ripping out (let's say for argument) Potassium at a rate unsustainable than the industry standard 10% weekly WC can replace, isn't that a tank crash bomb sitting under my tank? That seems ethically questionable. If true, I've never read anywhere that trace element depletion is a concern - especially in any "product reviews" or "product pages".

I'm sorry for the grilling. Just trying to learn.

 

[BanjoBandito]

Also - DEFINE ideal usage for a scrubber. If you could make the perfect system that included one - what would it look like.

 

[Turbo's Aquatics]

I'll have to psaki bomb here and circle back, I had a window of time to type away this morning and now other things are bubbling to the surface...might be a few days, just didn't want to leave you hanging (I own/operate 3 businesses and am involved in a few others as well)

 

[BanjoBandito]

I'll have to psaki bomb here and circle back, I had a window of time to type away this morning and now other things are bubbling to the surface...might be a few days, just didn't want to leave you hanging (I own/operate 3 businesses and am involved in a few others as well)

I also operate a few businesses. I understand time is valuable. Feel free to message me directly or if you wanna chat on the phone we can do that to. I'm just trying to understand what this thing is doing positive or negative for my system.

 

[DeniseAndy]

On my 210g system (been running over 16years (with one tank exchange) I have a protein skimmer, carbon reactor, calcium reactor, and and eventually an UAS (upflow algae scrubber). Before the move to the new tank, my tank ran without water changes for months and months. I would just forget as everything grew wonderfully. Now this was mostly a gorg and lleather system, so no worries on the nitrates/phosphates. I now have leathers, nems, softies.
I fed with auto feeder 4 different foods 4 times daily and hand fed twice daily.

My UAS was my main form of filtration (as the skimmer did its thing too). I have only rock in the sump. I also had socks on one of the drains usually.

I had a huge bryopsis outbreak while on vacation (3yrs in) and that is when I added the UAS to the system. This was before Fluconazole was used. I used manual removal and the UAS as the way to cure it. It was all gone from system in a few months. I never had issues with the system (until the new tank and new rock/coral/fish) and algae.

I now have that system up and running with a new DIY UAS and have no algae in main display and have gotten lazy on water changes again.

They work, but depending on your system, may need a different style to get good results.

 

[BanjoBandito]

On my 210g system (been running over 16years (with one tank exchange) I have a protein skimmer, carbon reactor, calcium reactor, and and eventually an UAS (upflow algae scrubber). Before the move to the new tank, my tank ran without water changes for months and months. I would just forget as everything grew wonderfully. Now this was mostly a gorg and lleather system, so no worries on the nitrates/phosphates. I now have leathers, nems, softies.
I fed with auto feeder 4 different foods 4 times daily and hand fed twice daily.

My UAS was my main form of filtration (as the skimmer did its thing too). I have only rock in the sump. I also had socks on one of the drains usually.

I had a huge bryopsis outbreak while on vacation (3yrs in) and that is when I added the UAS to the system. This was before Fluconazole was used. I used manual removal and the UAS as the way to cure it. It was all gone from system in a few months. I never had issues with the system (until the new tank and new rock/coral/fish) and algae.

I now have that system up and running with a new DIY UAS and have no algae in main display and have gotten lazy on water changes again.

They work, but depending on your system, may need a different style to get good results.

I don't understand this post. You claim that it only served to keep algae out of the DT? You keep saying they work but you aren't stating any nutrient reduction, the main selling point of ATS units?

 

[DeniseAndy]

I cannot give you a nutrient reduction exact amount because I do not measure them. What I am saying is that I have no issues with excess algae in my system because it is all on the UAS. I also do not do many water changes, so the algae is the only reasonable method of nutrient export (change). It is the balance.

I have had the best systems with UAS because they help balance the nutrients. Same way the algae on reefs, in lagoons, kelp forests help the oceans control nutrients.

Is it perfect in our closed systems, no. But my systems have run so much better with them than without. Obviously this is not scientific, just experience over 20 years of reef keeping. Final say on whether it is a right fit for your system is a call only you can make. Again, you do not need the pricey ones if you can DIY and have the room.

Just know they do not work quickly. It takes time to build up the algae and concentrate it where you want it to grow. Manual maintenance and lights can have a big play in that (I run just a household white bulb on mine and it grows great, my specific algae light grows nicely too) until it balances.

First picture is my floating one. Second is my really old HOG one. My current one is the same HOG type, but larger with two lights. Much better light overflow blocking too. Third is another DIY super easy (old) one just after it was installed.

 

[BanjoBandito]

I cannot give you a nutrient reduction exact amount because I do not measure them. What I am saying is that I have no issues with excess algae in my system because it is all on the UAS. I also do not do many water changes, so the algae is the only reasonable method of nutrient export (change). It is the balance.

I have had the best systems with UAS because they help balance the nutrients. Same way the algae on reefs, in lagoons, kelp forests help the oceans control nutrients.

Is it perfect in our closed systems, no. But my systems have run so much better with them than without. Obviously this is not scientific, just experience over 20 years of reef keeping. Final say on whether it is a right fit for your system is a call only you can make. Again, you do not need the pricey ones if you can DIY and have the room.

Just know they do not work quickly. It takes time to build up the algae and concentrate it where you want it to grow. Manual maintenance and lights can have a big play in that (I run just a household white bulb on mine and it grows great, my specific algae light grows nicely too) until it balances.

First picture is my floating one. Second is my really old HOG one. My current one is the same HOG type, but larger with two lights. Much better light overflow blocking too. Third is another DIY super easy (old) one just after it was installed.

I appreciate your input, but you went from saying "I don't measure nutrients" to "it really helps balance the nutrients". These are not hard facts and are not going to be useful in what I'm trying to determine. You cannot define what "nutrients" it's balancing or the exact numbers. Thank you for your reply.

 

[BanjoBandito]

ANYONE WANNA BUY A SCRUBBER? I'VE DEEMED THESE SNAKE OIL.

 

[Paul B]

You keep saying they work but you aren't stating any nutrient reduction, the main selling point of ATS units?

I have used a scrubber since they invented grass and I feel that whatever they actually do, they do it well. We tend to think of an algae scrubber as removing nutrients or algae and of course they do that, but we never, and I mean never talk about the positive things algae does for our tanks.

Algae grows on every healthy reef in the sea, we don't see it because of all the algae eating creatures but if we remove those creatures the sea would look like a produce stand in a bad neighborhood on a hot day.

Algae is there and it is good. As an old school guy (OK an ancient school guy) I learned decades ago that algae is actually good for a tank and adds important chemicals to the water. That is why a tank with growing algae, weather it is on the rocks or a scrubber is always healthier than a tank with no algae.

If your tank can't grow algae, it isn't very healthy at all. If you have a plot of land and after a year or so it doesn't at least grow weeds, Move.

I forgot the authors and researchers that used to speak about the health benefits of algae but I think it was "Guido Huckstead" (Water Chemistry for the Advanced Aquarist) as that was before computers, cell phones, internet and Myley Cyrus so the information then was was from trusted sources and not the guy loading toilet bowls into mini vans outside Home Depot.

If you SCUBA dive, and I mean really SCUBA dive not in a resort with 35 accountants who just got certified last Tuesday, and you go to reefs where tourists are not allowed, you may see algae all over the place. Especially if all the sharks have been fished out and there are no more tangs, urchins, manatees, algae bleenies etc.

I took this off a remote reef in the Hawaiian Islands. Hair algae all over the place.


I know we don't want to see it in our reefs, but we are wrong.

Remember it doesn't matter if we remove the algae or not, the important thing is that our tanks have the capacity or will if you will to grow the stuff.



Pristine, white reefs are not healthy. Algae is good, weather on a scrubber or on your rocks.

 

[BanjoBandito]

I dive Paul and I’d love to go with you. I would argue healthy reefs with full coral coverage don’t have algae, I would also say I’m not trying to keep a wild habitat. The ocean also replaces the trace elements the algae is stripping out. Also….I’m gonna call BS on “algae adding chemicals to the water”, they are great bacteria and micro fauna nurseries but adding chemicals? Huh? Can you back that up?

 

[BanjoBandito]

We are so far off coarse on this thread at this point. I’m still going to call my scrubber a impure devil box. I’m trying to use it and dial it in but it sure seems like a bomb with a long fuse.

 

[monkeyCmonkeyDo]

I've had two or more algae turf scrubbers. They are usually DIY waterfall ones. Id rather grow the algae on that screen than in my display. Lol.
D

 

[mindme]

You’ll prolly want to do regular ICP tests, now if you believe the results, thats a different matter

If you don't believe the results it's likely because you are being anal about them.

 

[BanjoBandito]

If you don't believe the results it's likely because you are being anal about them.

…if I rolled my eyes any harder they’d come out of my skull. I’ve done ICP tests from duplicate samples, same company and gotten different results. Unless you know how and when they calibrate then just send me money and I’ll make stuff up.