Experience with Solar Panels?

[Tiger-Paws]

I have solar here in Texas just east of Dallas on my ranch, I purchased a 30kw solar array which is not attached to to my house and is freestanding. Additionally I have a substantial battery bank of large forklift style batteries which is capable of operating my total electrical load for 48 hours without significantly altering my power needs.

I installed a similar system at my home on the island of Antigua which was very helpful after last years hurricane.

High output quality solar panels do work but they are not yet economically ready for the average homeowner.

Unless you live in a place like California where electrical power is unbelievably high or like me on an island in the Caribbean solar is a waste of money. At least until the cost per kw/hour comes down or the price of delivered power goes up.

 

[Jet915]

We got panels in California. You are always better off buying them then leasing them if you can. I calculated that the panels would pay off in 8-10 years....

 

[tautog83]

if you're going to do it, research it and buy them outright . Id stay away from solar city and the lease to own with no money is all a gimmick. a lot of those companies you dont use the electric you produce rather they deliver you electric sometimes cheaper(sometimes not). also like people said if you dont own them outright try and sell your home, ha. nobody wants the closing costs and then have to take on your lease. however it seems like more and more options are becoming available that are more viable like tesla.

 

[Tiger-Paws]

While the Tesla option is interesting but I am not convinced that the battery technology is safe, look at the recent Tesla car battery fire http://money.cnn.com/2018/06/18/technology/mary-mccormack-tesla-fire/index.html

Something like this would burn a home down in minutes.

 

[doughboy]

my power usage is not quite high, but not low either. when I researched this a few years back, I figured it was better to spend the money getting efficient appliances instead. got new fridge, washer, dryer, stove. bill instantly got cut in half. probably the same monthly cost had I went solar and kept the old power hungry appliances.

 

[Tiger-Paws]

my power usage is not quite high, but not low either. when I researched this a few years back, I figured it was better to spend the money getting efficient appliances instead. got new fridge, washer, dryer, stove. bill instantly got cut in half. probably the same monthly cost had I went solar and kept the old power hungry appliances.

An A/C is about as power hungry an appliance as it comes, new A/C units do offer a considerable savings per BTU, but once you begin looking into energy savings it is a black hole of money. Windows, curtains, attic insulation, wall insulation, power outlets, weather stripping, carpet vs tile/hardwood flooring, water heater vs demand heater, lighting and on and on.

 

[doughboy]

right about a/c. we use central a/c maybe 2-3 times a year only here in norcal. the new fridge replaced our old fridge and a freezer in the garage. the new washer can do 2-3x the amount of laundry in 1 load and use less water. so I can imagine new a/c will be much more efficient. oh, I also replaced our 5 year old plasma tv with energy efficient led tv that is larger and uses less watts. best part is wife is happy with new appliances is priceless. can't get that with solar.

 

[Tiger-Paws]

right about a/c. we use central a/c maybe 2-3 times a year only here in norcal. the new fridge replaced our old fridge and a freezer in the garage. the new washer can do 2-3x the amount of laundry in 1 load and use less water. so I can imagine new a/c will be much more efficient. oh, I also replaced our 5 year old plasma tv with energy efficient led tv that is larger and uses less watts. best part is wife is happy with new appliances is priceless. can't get that with solar.

Well you can keep the wife, as for the TV, I do not have one as I do not watch TV.

Sorry that you are in the crazy land called Kalifornia.

My electrical load is generally low except when the A/C is running.

 

[doughboy]

My electrical load is generally low except when the A/C is running.

lol, except folks in hot states need to run a/c a lot more than where I am.

 

[Tiger-Paws]

lol, except folks in hot states need to run a/c a lot more than where I am.

3:55 pm CDT.

Right now it is 97F in the shade in my backyard, and my living room is a comfortable 77F here in Texas. The A/C is running along with several ceiling fans and my tank and I am still feeding my battery bank enough power to have it fully charged by 5pm.

 

[DLHDesign]

A tesla powerwall with solar panels would be amazing insurance for an expensive reef tank.

This is what I have - a 7.5kW solar array (self-installed) feeding into a single Tesla Powerwall. The Powerwall is configured to provide power when the solar is not generating enough (down to 20% for emergency backup), and then I pull from the grid. I average about 65% energy independence across the year, with numbers in the 90% range in the summer and 40% range in the winter. If I had a second Powerwall installed chained into the first, then it would be even better.

Without any rebates and without the battery, the system would have taken about 20 years to break-even. With the rebates, that dropped to about 12 years. With the battery addition (which only carried a net-cost of about $4k), it dropped to single-digit numbers (and gives me backup in the case of a loss - which was a primary goal).

Last time I looked (which was some time ago) PG&E buys energy back at $0.03/kWh and in general, I pay an average of $0.15/kWh. There's a $10 connection charge every month as well.

This is in CA and with a well-aligned roof - basically in ideal conditions. We're buying a new house and will have a 3kW system installed upon move-in, but will likely upgrade that to a 5kW system. Will also be adding two Powerwall batteries. As soon as Tesla gets them back in stock, that is...

 

[Tiger-Paws]

This is what I have - a 7.5kW solar array (self-installed) feeding into a single Tesla Powerwall. The Powerwall is configured to provide power when the solar is not generating enough (down to 20% for emergency backup), and then I pull from the grid. I average about 65% energy independence across the year, with numbers in the 90% range in the summer and 40% range in the winter. If I had a second Powerwall installed chained into the first, then it would be even better.

Without any rebates and without the battery, the system would have taken about 20 years to break-even. With the rebates, that dropped to about 12 years. With the battery addition (which only carried a net-cost of about $4k), it dropped to single-digit numbers (and gives me backup in the case of a loss - which was a primary goal).

Last time I looked (which was some time ago) PG&E buys energy back at $0.03/kWh and in general, I pay an average of $0.15/kWh. There's a $10 connection charge every month as well.

This is in CA and with a well-aligned roof - basically in ideal conditions. We're buying a new house and will have a 3kW system installed upon move-in, but will likely upgrade that to a 5kW system. Will also be adding two Powerwall batteries. As soon as Tesla gets them back in stock, that is...

Dave the best thing you could do is to leave Kalifornia, I was born and raised in the Central Valley and I sold the last of my homes there in 2005 for $545,000 which I purchased in 1985 for $95,000. Best move I have every made, taxes are insane, water rationing, telling people that they can only shower every other day, power brown-outs, insane auto registration costs and on and on and on.

 

[doughboy]

This is what I have - a 7.5kW solar array (self-installed) feeding into a single Tesla Powerwall. The Powerwall is configured to provide power when the solar is not generating enough (down to 20% for emergency backup), and then I pull from the grid. I average about 65% energy independence across the year, with numbers in the 90% range in the summer and 40% range in the winter. If I had a second Powerwall installed chained into the first, then it would be even better.

Without any rebates and without the battery, the system would have taken about 20 years to break-even. With the rebates, that dropped to about 12 years. With the battery addition (which only carried a net-cost of about $4k), it dropped to single-digit numbers (and gives me backup in the case of a loss - which was a primary goal).

Last time I looked (which was some time ago) PG&E buys energy back at $0.03/kWh and in general, I pay an average of $0.15/kWh. There's a $10 connection charge every month as well.

This is in CA and with a well-aligned roof - basically in ideal conditions. We're buying a new house and will have a 3kW system installed upon move-in, but will likely upgrade that to a 5kW system. Will also be adding two Powerwall batteries. As soon as Tesla gets them back in stock, that is...

how is the battery connected?
I read in another sf local forum when grid goes down, then your solar panel generation goes nowhere. cannot go to grid and cannot be used to charge battery.
I think net metering forces you to be on time of use plan. does that work out better for you or does it sort of cancel out some of the benefit of solar.

Lots of people still come to California despite the high cost / high population, etc and there are plenty of reasons why that is the case. A natural population control is for people who cannot compete leave the state. :) There is no perfect place, well, except maybe Hawaii.

 

[Tiger-Paws]

how is the battery connected?
I read in another sf local forum when grid goes down, then your solar panel generation goes nowhere. cannot go to grid and cannot be used to charge battery.
I think net metering forces you to be on time of use plan. does that work out better for you or does it sort of cancel out some of the benefit of solar.

Lots of people still come to California despite the high cost / high population, etc and there are plenty of reasons why that is the case. A natural population control is for people who cannot compete leave the state. :) There is no perfect place, well, except maybe Hawaii.

My system which is Solar to battery and a Diesel Generator is connected through a switching panel. my power goes down almost monthly for one reason or another, high winds knock down power lines, hail, lighting you name it. My switch time between battery and line power is all but instantaneous, I get a small beep from the switch gear and that is about it. If the power is out long enough for the battery to drop below 10% the generator kicks in, this has only happened once in the past few years.

I do not back feed power to the utility company.

 

[doughboy]

.

 

[doughboy]

off the grid certainly makes things a lot simpler.
I was curious how the on grid setup with battery works. I should have addressed the question to Dave.

 

[Tiger-Paws]

off the grid certainly makes things a lot simpler.
I was curious how the on grid setup with battery works. I should have addressed the question to Dave.

My grid connection and my Solar/Diesel are totally separate, the only time there is a switch from one to another is when there is a power issue. I do not use grid power to charge my batteries.

 

[Tiger-Paws]

Tesla to close a dozen solar facilities in nine states

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...lities-in-nine-states-documents-idUSKBN1JI013

 

[DLHDesign]

how is the battery connected?

There is a "brain" controller in the middle of the setup. The grid, solar, battery, and house all tie into this controller, which then decides how to connect the mix based on the current production and draw. It works as you would hope it would; solar is the primary energy source when it's producing - with excess charging the battery when needed or else feeding back to the grid when the battery is full. When the house needs more energy than the solar can provide and the battery has more than 20% charge, the battery provides the power needed*. When the battery drains down to 20%, the draw will come from the grid.

* - Each battery has a cap of 30amps. So when something large (like our hot tub - ~50amp) draws power from the battery, it will draw up to this limit (or just below it, really) and then pull the rest from the grid. If I were to add a second battery, the total possible output would stack - so 60amps for two batteries, 90amps for three, etc. Last I talked to them, they support up to 6 batteries stacked in this way in residential installs. After that, you have to divide your breakers between two different stacks (but really, if you need that much, you're no longer really a "residential" user...).

I read in another sf local forum when grid goes down, then your solar panel generation goes nowhere. cannot go to grid and cannot be used to charge battery.

The grid is just another source of power (or destination of overages). That's how Tesla batteries should work in any install, so it may be that people in the other forum are talking about other backup solutions?

I think net metering forces you to be on time of use plan. does that work out better for you or does it sort of cancel out some of the benefit of solar.

It does, yes. It's not an ideal side-effect, but it makes sense. I factored it into my budget calculations and it still worked out for me, so I installed the solar. Adding the battery to the mix allows me to shift my grid usage to basically any time I want, so I can take advantage of any low cost times if I needed to. The default configuration actually takes care of most of that for me (see below).

For those that are picture-people:

Blue = house draw, yellow = solar production, green = battery, gray = grid
Above the line is positive, below is negative (with "negative battery" being "charge the battery" and "negative grid" being "PG&E pays me"). If you compare the "positive" gray area in the AM (left side) with the "negative" gray area after noon, they roughly represent the same area (ballpark; and that changes by the season). This is the indication that (a) I have enough excess solar production to charge another battery and (b) that another battery would come close to allowing me to only rarely draw from the grid. The payoff on a second battery would be about 5yrs, but we're selling the house, so I won't be doing that. ;-)

The three big spikes are the hot tub heating. You can see in the noon-ish spike that the battery picks up the excess that the solar can't provide.
The smaller spikes after noon are the HVAC (because my wife likes to leave the doors open and forgets to turn off the A/C...).

@Tiger-Paws - I have no plans to leave CA. If I did, it would likely be to somewhere else entirely - New Zealand or the like. But that's another topic... ;-)

 

[doughboy]

Dave,

According to ppl in the other forum, they say if PGE grid is down, then you pretty much have no power, as PGE shuts everything down completely. That is, if sun is shining brightly, solar power is not fed to your house nor to the grid, it is just wasted. And according to some, Fremont, of all places since this is where Tesla is, does not allow install of batteries to your solar setup.

So in your setup in Livermore, when there is power outage, does the solar panel power your house? Does the battery power your house if grid is down? Or have you not experienced power outage yet since you installed?

If solar and/or battery cannot power the house if the grid is down, then to me, it makes less sense to go solar since one of the main reason for me is to get backup power, at least for a few hours, when grid goes down. I also have a 20 year old house and may have to fix the roof sooner or later, and having the panels may be a hassle.