Feedback on Banggai vent sexing

[JasonVH]

Hoping to pair up banggais- would like feedback on sex of this one, please(all pictures are of same fish):

 

[DaJMasta]

Looks like a male to me

 

[JasonVH]

@DaJMasta Thanks. Had been looking the longest time for a male to pair up with the female(laid eggs in the past). The female instantly set onto this one with extreme aggressive behavior so it was a bit confusing.

After settling out the pictured fish in another tank and introducing the female after, things seem to be going well. Staying close to each other with bouts of excited pairing behaviors, etc.

Also in the descriptions of 'two vent/tubes vs one vent/tube' it's meant cloacal bump and tube for male vs just the cloacal bump for the female? Some sources say two tubes which tripped me up here.

 

[DaJMasta]

Yes, that's my understanding. There are a couple of photos floating around that show a bump and a tube as the two, I think it's just sort of two vents for the male, and the one bump/vent for a female, not two identical looking ones. Getting a picture that clear isn't always easy as they are very often scared of the camera even if used to you, and it seems a lot of the references people give have since expired from web hosting sites.

My female was the more aggressive of my two as well, it can actually lead to injuries, so while I think normal, it's worth keeping an eye out around spawning time especially.

 

[JasonVH]

Yes, that's my understanding. There are a couple of photos floating around that show a bump and a tube as the two, I think it's just sort of two vents for the male, and the one bump/vent for a female, not two identical looking ones. Getting a picture that clear isn't always easy as they are very often scared of the camera even if used to you, and it seems a lot of the references people give have since expired from web hosting sites.

My female was the more aggressive of my two as well, it can actually lead to injuries, so while I think normal, it's worth keeping an eye out around spawning time especially.

That sums up my experience as well and appreciate the clarification on the vents.

There's a bit on someone keeping a male banggai as an isolated tester. Toss in a banggai= if the banggai attacks it, male. If he courts it, female. After seeing how my female reacted plus the pairing behavior, I've been wondering if that mentioned "male banggai" might actually have been a female instead. Your last line just makes me think this even more. My female was extremely reactive and aggressive at the first introduction- she would have killed him if I hadn't moved him out.

During the excited bouts of pairing behaviors, it's clear the female is the 'dominant' one. Sometimes it appears the male does behaviors to 'calm' or 'affirm' their pair bond as not to let her escalate too much.

If they successfully spawn and the male holds the eggs- would you recommend keeping them together until close to fry release or moving out the female sometime before that? Tbh, the degree of her 'dominance' and seemingly wanting appropitate responses from him has me a little nervous about the egg holding phase.

I've read bits about the female defending the egg holding male from other fishes. Does her presence encourage him to keep holding or it makes no real difference? Or what if her dominance might accidentally cause him to dump the eggs...?

 

[DaJMasta]

The first batch or two could be lost - I think both of my pairs had that happen - but I think that was more of a being ready to hold them the whole time or somewhat a size thing. The female became very defensive of the male around courtship, right after, and then again before hatch, to the point that mine would chase fish around my 40G just because they were there sometimes. The male would act as chill as possible, finding a low flow, somewhat covered place, and just trying to stay out of the way. I definitely saw the female come over to see him at times and act sort of like she was trying to get him to do something, with him basically just ignoring it - never saw a problem with the eggs from it.

That said, I had one female that spawned with a male and outlived him after a few years who I later paired up with another male, and I believe she was the cause of the second male's death. I had saw her acting a bit nippy/aggressive on occasion even after the introduction, and I eventually found him between a gorgonian and the glass of the tank - I think intentionally wedged there. I got him out but he had a damaged fin and eventually died from the injuries. Sadly, but to assuage your concerns with him spitting the eggs, even after getting injured and wedging himself against the glass, he spit out some of the eggs he was holding shortly before he passed in the breeder basket I transferred him to - he was trying to be a good parent after being injured.

I don't know if it was this specific female, that the male was a little smaller, or something else, but I do have the impression that the females tend to be the more aggressive ones in the case of Banggais.

 

[JasonVH]

The first batch or two could be lost - I think both of my pairs had that happen - but I think that was more of a being ready to hold them the whole time or somewhat a size thing. The female became very defensive of the male around courtship, right after, and then again before hatch, to the point that mine would chase fish around my 40G just because they were there sometimes. The male would act as chill as possible, finding a low flow, somewhat covered place, and just trying to stay out of the way. I definitely saw the female come over to see him at times and act sort of like she was trying to get him to do something, with him basically just ignoring it - never saw a problem with the eggs from it.


I don't know if it was this specific female, that the male was a little smaller, or something else, but I do have the impression that the females tend to be the more aggressive ones in the case of Banggais.

Much appreciated sharing your experiences.

The whole sexing thing was settled with total certainty as of 30 minutes ago- fish pictured above is male. Saw the female doing the 'spawn shimmying' this morning. Just barely missed the spawning to see the male with his mouth wide open and trying to adjust the egg clutch in his mouth.

The female is bothering him, though. Not in an aggressive behavior- simply getting all excited in his face, dancing around and it appears to be stressing him a bit as occasionally he makes quick darts to get away from her. Then the female gets close again, hovering all around him. Noticed during the month they were together, she 'demands proper responses' from him. If he doesn't react, she ramps it up even higher until he dances back to her.

Your last paragraphs has me thinking it'd be best to move the female out ASAP and hope he will hold onto the eggs- thoughts? I really want this clutch to hatch.

 

[ThisIsTheWay]

I don't have anything to add, I just wanted to say this has been an incredibly informative thread so far. I'll have to refer back to this in the future since I think it'd be cool to get a pair of cardinals one day. :)

 

[DaJMasta]

When I was collecting the babies, I kept them together until I could see eyes in his mouth, usually aiming for a couple days before release, and at least in my system around day 21 (will depend on temp, parents, etc.) First time spawns often won't make it to hatch, something about him getting used to caring for them or just holding a huge mass in his mouth for weeks, but the female, when fed well enough, will produce eggs at almost the same pace he will raise them up, leading to basically monthly spawns with sometimes less than a week to put the weight back on between clutches, and this after a few successful spawns can lead to him spitting them out just to be able to recover for a month.

I like to just let them be and try to figure it out the first couple of times, as they will probably find their rhythm. I think spit out eggs can be raised in an egg tumbler (they do need water movement for aeration), but it would be challenging to scoop up eggs that are spit out before something else does.

 

[JasonVH]

When I was collecting the babies, I kept them together until I could see eyes in his mouth, usually

That was the general plan, until observing how this particular female seems excessive in demanding responses from the male through the courtship & pair bonding(every hour every day). The worry is if she continues this during the egg holding phase.

Did your females get 'bothersome' with their males during this phase- dancing and looking like she demanded a reaction from him and if so, how often? So I could better gauge if she's getting too excessive about it or stays within the normal level.

If it's allright, how did you feed the fry? I've got BBS hatcheries already and have ideas of playing with outdoor copepod setups as an extra live food source.

 

[JasonVH]

I don't have anything to add, I just wanted to say this has been an incredibly informative thread so far. I'll have to refer back to this in the future since I think it'd be cool to get a pair of cardinals one day. :)

It's been interesting for sure! Reading all about it and then witnessing it not being the same... hmm, what's going on... heh!

Seems they're pretty much sold as little barely weaned juveniles. It was quite impossible to even find an available 'at least half grown, sex unknown' banggai. Took two years before finding this one, actually.

Tip: if getting little sized ones, ask to see them eating. The new fry are notorious for being difficult to feed, requiring live foods during their first few weeks before transitioning onto frozen. Pretty rare for banggais to take pellet/flakes but they exist. Anyways, definitely choose the ones that eagerly go for frozen food- especially mysis size particles(if they do this for pellets, those are miracles, grab immediately lol) and you'll be golden. It's not easy having to hatch out and feed live BBS, especially if there's already other fish. And they might(likely) refuse even frozen BBS if not weaned off live food yet. The reason for adding this is because sometimes I'll see messages along the lines "I bought banggais and they refused to eat and died...". My suspicion is if they were not sick, they were not weaned off live before sale.

Also with the little ones, usually there's no chance of trying to sex them. The usual various claims of mouth shape, fin shape, etc really does not work, despite the insistence. Best to get several if eventual breeding is within your plans. They will form obvious pairs early on. Or stay and watch the tank and see if there's two that seem to hang together a bit away from the others, especially if one of them does a little dart at a third then returns to the same one after. Unless you get lucky and it's possible to feed them until really full, then look for the 'two vs one' on the ventral areas, ha.

 

[DaJMasta]

She will continue to be overtly protective and somewhat smothering, but not as much as close to spawn and close to hatch. He'll get good at sort of getting out of the way and hang out in a low flow-low drama area of the tank.

For the little ones, live food is best, but their mouths are pretty big. I started with artemia nauplii mostly with some copepods (I've got cultures going), but within about a week they could take fines from normal frozen food and generally accepted it. Never really bothered much with pellets as it seemed challenging to keep them in suspension in quantity and I didn't want to just foul the water, but they can eat often (more than half a dozen times a day no problem) and the more you feed, the faster they grow. I wouldn't do below 2-3 feedings per day, maybe 2 is fine with a very low flow grow out area, but more is faster growth, for sure.

I wrote up my banggai journey on my club's forum, and sort of summarized my methods/findings after several batches here: https://wamas.org/forums/topic/97910-banggai-cardinal-spawning-log/page/3/#comment-805677