First fish-less cycle: Praying to Poseidon

[brandon429]

there's a really uncommon but handy way to see a cycling reef tank, and its about submersion time not about what a test reads. that holds so microbially true, we can cycle your tank without any testing whatsoever and name the date it will be ready, based on the boosters you use or not use. any test kit that debates it after the call date, is wrong.

that's a sick cycling technique, all about how long something has been underwater.

one reason that came about was suspension cycling vs true surface cycling.

we can get an instantly-poured glass of water to register nitrate if we just add bottle bac to the cup of water, some ammonia, and retest in a couple days with accurate gear. what was added can register ammonia oxidation, but its the surfaces you really want coated unless this is some type of emergency hospital or rescue, in which case suspension cycling is specifically indicated and can save your whole tank's life.

its just a more delicate situation cuz you can't mess with the water column.

once you pass the known submersion compliance dates, no form of water changing will stop your tanks ability to eat up ammonia. sick technique.

That analysis above is for standard reef tanks where the common bioloads and organisms will soon be at play. if this is some kind of unique medication or tank transfer type setup the goals may be different than just knowing which date any standard cycle will complete. Its all assuming no meds are about to be dosed to the system after completion. the # takeaway is that with submersion cycling dates, not any tanks fail to comply. Its total compliance with variance not optional, they've already adapted seed and colony plating times long before we were on the scene./

 

[Xclusive Reef]

IMHO pretty good.
but then it simply doesn't make any sense to me at all to pay for bacteria that build up free of charge with no stress to the fish.

my .02

You might want to lookup the chaeto sandwich in the diy section. Just use eggcrate to encase chaeto and use that as an in tank refugium

and you might also consider using a single male molly as your starter fish.

just suggestions.

Worth at most

.02

Not sure what does Chaeto have to do with a QT tank? my purpose of using bacteria in a bottle AKA Dr. Tim's was to hurry the cycle do I can get my first fish in QT before it is ready for my main tank. I did not want to wait months to let the tank cycle for a QT tank.

I now have tried 2 different bacterias ina bottle and did not like it cause maybe yea it just needs time but according to seachem, stability takes 1-2 months to cycle a tank. Well If I had known that I could have just dumped a shrimp and waited. So once DT is up and running its all a different story.. I will have something with bacteria already established and will get water from the DT as well.

 

[beaslbob]

Not sure what does Chaeto have to do with a QT tank? my purpose of using bacteria in a bottle AKA Dr. Tim's was to hurry the cycle do I can get my first fish in QT before it is ready for my main tank. I did not want to wait months to let the tank cycle for a QT tank.

I now have tried 2 different bacterias ina bottle and did not like it cause maybe yea it just needs time but according to seachem, stability takes 1-2 months to cycle a tank. Well If I had known that I could have just dumped a shrimp and waited. So once DT is up and running its all a different story.. I will have something with bacteria already established and will get water from the DT as well.

A very good observation.


The chaeto will provide the optimum environment to the fish being quarantined. Just like in a cycling display tank.

To be honest if this was a hospital tank to treat fish then there would be an excellent question of the meds being used. Macros and other algae will significantly bio accumulate (filter out) those meds just like it does copper and other heavy ions.

But you put a new fish in a tank with chaeto, the chaeto will start consuming the ammonia and co2 and return fish food and oxygen. even if there is not a single aerobic bacteria present. Which is impossible because the chaeto will have that bacteria anyway.

my .02

 

[brandon429]

agreed the chaeto is about as effective as adding bottle bac, literally anything xferred among tanks counts very well

 

[JakesReef209]

Just yell at me if I'm being impatient. But it's day 13 of the fishless cycle and my tank bacteria is taking down about 1ppm of ammonia in 12 hours. I'm running out of ammonium chloride (2nd bottle is on the way in the mail) but even tho my bacteria seem to be able to get rid of ammonia very rapidly my nitrites remain at 5 ppm. They have not faltered at all since the start. Is this to be expected? Do I just need to keep waiting? Should I do a partial water change?
I'm following DR.Tims guide to fishless cycling. I started with bio spira and dr Tims ammonium chloride

 

[Bob3655]

personally I wouldnt do a water change yet if youre still reading nitrites. sounds like the nitrifying bacteria is still building up to a level to where it can start converting nitrites to nitrates. I personally would be patient and give it a week or so, testing ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates every day. once I read nitrites I dont like to do a water change until after ammonia and nitrites are at zero, and you are registering nitrates. Then dose ammonia again, monitor ammonia nitrites and nitrates, if theyre cycling out within 24 hours consistently and your nitrates are are registering, then its time for your water change.

 

[JakesReef209]

personally I wouldnt do a water change yet if youre still reading nitrites. sounds like the nitrifying bacteria is still building up to a level to where it can start converting nitrites to nitrates. I personally would be patient and give it a week or so, testing ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates every day. once I read nitrites I dont like to do a water change until after ammonia and nitrites are at zero, and you are registering nitrates. Then dose ammonia again, monitor ammonia nitrites and nitrates, if theyre cycling out within 24 hours consistently and your nitrates are are registering, then its time for your water change.

My ph is also dropping slowly. Looks to be about 7.9 now. Any concerns there with the cycling process? Obviously I'll want to maintain it at a higher level when the tank is fully up and running but will this interfere with the cycle?

 

[JakesReef209]

On day 17 now. The ammonia now drops very rapidly. Barely maintains 2 ppm for more than 12 hours but my nitrites still have not budged at all. They're holding strong 5 ppm. I ordered some polyp lab genesis to help build the bacteria population more. I know patience is key when cycling it just seems weird to me that it can take down ammonia so quickly but have 0 effect on nitrite

 

[brandon429]

You do not have to test for, nor consider nitrite or nitrate in a cycle.

Only ammonia matters and submersion time, which at 17 days is barely met, technically you can reef start lightly. Myriad reasons for your nitrite readings, too many to list but in the microbiology of cycling thread we cover it in detail

You would need thirty days underwater in your current condition and ammonia performance then it’s case closed. It is not hard to cycle accurately within 15 days, that’s the bare safe submersion timeframe, if the keeper has dosed bottle bac and liquid ammonia which I think you have.

There is no form of subjective timing for a cycle. 15 days done right vs thirty days done haphazard, same ammonia digestion outcome.

Do the big water change, then add some CUC and corals, then begin 76 day fallow getting ready for fish.

When big tank reefers saw us keeping sps in jars and bowls, that wasn’t going to work because it just couldn’t. Same for triple parameter testing and chasing, things have changed, become simpler, and we only have to know what ammonia does and how long a system has been underwater to call a cycle completed. We actually do not need ammonia testing, but asking people to go off time frames alone is too advanced they’ll need ten more years to accept, just like pico reefs

 

[JakesReef209]

You do not have to test for, nor consider nitrite or nitrate in a cycle.

Only ammonia matters and submersion time, which at 17 days is barely met, technically you can reef start lightly. Myriad reasons for your nitrite readings, too many to list but in the microbiology of cycling thread we cover it in detail

You would need thirty days underwater in your current condition and ammonia performance then it’s case closed. It is not hard to cycle accurately within 15 days, that’s the bare safe submersion timeframe, if the keeper has dosed bottle bac and liquid ammonia which I think you have.

There is no form of subjective timing for a cycle. 15 days done right vs thirty days done haphazard, same ammonia digestion outcome.

Do the big water change, then add some CUC and corals, then begin 76 day fallow getting ready for fish.

When big tank reefers saw us keeping sps in jars and bowls, that wasn’t going to work because it just couldn’t. Same for triple parameter testing and chasing, things have changed, become simpler, and we only have to know what ammonia does and how long a system has been underwater to call a cycle completed. We actually do not need ammonia testing, but asking people to go off time frames alone is too advanced they’ll need ten more years to accept, just like pico reefs

I think I'm understanding what you're saying but the one thing I'm confused about is: are you saying that it's ok to have nitrites in my tank before I introduce a fish? I understand that testing isn't 100% necessary if it's been submerged long enough. But for the sake accuracy, I would feel much more comfortable testing to make sure Ive eliminated nitrite efficiently before I introduce fish

 

[brandon429]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-microbiology-of-reef-tank-cycling.214618/

That explains why only ammonia matters

*totally ok to test the standard fare. The reason we eliminated trate and trite was just to get a hold on the constant mis testing

In that link we have people misreading nitrite weeks after there was none, in one case because they kept using prime over and over which produces the false reading. So many ways to get false nitrite readings. #2 is testing waste water, not after the final big change. That’s the stage you are at


Change your water out, refill, then test, it won’t have any nitrite. This is much easier in nanos to prove vs 90+ gallons. For the large tankers who cannot instantly reset their wastewater, we provide links on why the trace nitrite does not matter, can ignore it.

The reco to add some CUC and corals, waiting 76 more days for fish is right timed with how new your tank is and the recent cycle completion. I can also agree that in quick cycling, 15 days fastest time, some of the nitrite reducing groups may not be quite ready while the ammoniacs are ready, inconsequential. After thirty days they all align anyway. Only ammonia matters if that helps

 

[JakesReef209]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-microbiology-of-reef-tank-cycling.214618/

That explains why only ammonia matters

*totally ok to test the standard fare. The reason we eliminated trate and trite was just to get a hold on the constant mis testing

In that link we have people misreading nitrite weeks after there was none, in one case because they kept using prime over and over which produces the false reading. So many ways to get false nitrite readings. #2 is testing waste water, not after the final big change. That’s the stage you are at


Change your water out, refill, then test, it won’t have any nitrite. This is much easier in nanos to prove vs 90+ gallons. For the large tankers who cannot instantly reset their wastewater, we provide links on why the trace nitrite does not matter, can ignore it.

The reco to add some CUC and corals, waiting 76 more days for fish is right timed with how new your tank is and the recent cycle completion. I can also agree that in quick cycling, 15 days fastest time, some of the nitrite reducing groups may not be quite ready while the ammoniacs are ready, inconsequential. After thirty days they all align anyway. Only ammonia matters if that helps

Awesome thread and info! Very helpful. My only question is, after I do my water change to get out all the rot water do I need to add ammonia to keep the bacteria alive? If the tank sits for a week with no ammonia and no fish will the bacteria begin to die off? The dr Tims instructions say it's extremely important not to let the ammonia drop to zero before the cycle completes

 

[JakesReef209]

Awesome thread and info! Very helpful. My only question is, after I do my water change to get out all the rot water do I need to add ammonia to keep the bacteria alive? If the tank sits for a week with no ammonia and no fish will the bacteria begin to die off? The dr Tims instructions say it's extremely important not to let the ammonia drop to zero before the cycle completes

@brandon429

 

[brandon429]

thank you for considering that painfully long read. bacteria nerds overdo bac stuff.

Anyone who presses or breaks rules needs to have thread examples imo here's mine that says they can't be starved:

https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/383510-ammonia-processing-rate-of-established-tank/
Water is all that's needed, not food, once the cycle completes which we know is submersion time + boost dependent

Months and months of no feeding as a purposeful test of settings went down in that thread and we already knew it works before they set up that thread

Dr Tim's is advising wise safe zone work and measures bc they know everyone is cycle rushing and half the time they haven't met surface cycling submersion times and are earning their oxidation numbers off suspension cycling, aka the bottle bac floating in the water

They're wanting consistent feed in the pre adhered phase.

All that work above is post adherent work, where they're able to stand alone, where your tank is at now and just barely due to submersion times plus boosts used plus known ammonia performance

 

[brandon429]

I find in looking back on forums for 17 yrs that mistrust of bacteria is the #1 hindrance to any new keeper. it hindered me well into being not a new keeper, I did the hands off sandbed approach which works for many, but not the majority, or people wouldn't be cleaning their beds like they do in droves nowadays. doing that method is what got my first pico invaded with wiry red algae, we didn't know direct assault of plant and the rotten sandbed fueling them was as awesome and fun as its known to be nowadays.

In 2003 ish, to even remotely clean a bed was discouraged, due to disturbance of nitrate-reducing bacteria which if were actually there and working as intended, nobody would be stirring nowadays. insert disclaimer here ____________for the 1% pulling off the 90s version, your peers aren't able to.

We used to avoid large water changes in nanos....due to bacterial disturbance

and then it turns out large water changes are the cure for 90% of any problems a nano w face

on and on

bac concern causing hesitation, we enjoy featuring how dang tough they are. soon ill drain my entire 12 yr old reef for half an hour and put it on video, then fill it up, and show the no cycle continuance. corals just hanging there, thinking dude we get it man hurry up

 

[JakesReef209]

Anyone who presses or breaks rules needs to have thread examples imo here's mine that says they can't be starved:

https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/383510-ammonia-processing-rate-of-established-tank/
Water is all that's needed, not food, once the cycle completes which we know is submersion time + boost dependent

Months and months of no feeding as a purposeful test of settings went down in that thread and we already knew it works before they set up that thread

Dr Tim's is advising wise safe zone work and measures bc they know everyone is cycle rushing and half the time they haven't met surface cycling submersion times and are earning their oxidation numbers off suspension cycling, aka the bottle bac floating in the water

They're wanting consistent feed in the pre adhered phase.

All that work above is post adherent work, where they're able to stand alone, where your tank is at now and just barely due to submersion times plus boosts used plus known ammonia performance

I see. So at where I'm at now (19 days) I should probably reduce additions of liquid ammonia to the tank, wait until day 30. Do a large water change, refill with clean water, test THAT water and if it's good to go, add some CUC, maybe some hardy corals and then wait another month to add fish?

 

[brandon429]

yes if you did day 30 its as solid as can be. you've dosed bottle bac more than once and ammonia more than once, and we only needed twice within 3o days to be done. quarantine of the rascally fish is next, that's a painfully long wait. my tank is too small for fish I would not know what its like not to rush. I don't qt anything, any bad hitchhikers are just killed off via cheats!