First cycle

Bruttall

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That 12 days was the time needed for the rocks to start taking effect. If sand made a significant difference you would have been able to add fish on day 1. As is seen when people use products like turbo start.

Not saying live sand is a bad thing, it isn't. Without the rocks though the sand wouldn't be enough to sustain fish for an extended period.
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This would argue that nitrifying bacteria lives on sand or rock equally. Why does the media (seachem matrix, bioblocks etc) we use in sumps have so much surface areas for nitrifying bacteria? Sand collectively in our tanks has way more surface area than the rock, hence more area for bacteria to grow.
 
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brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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the only factor needed to set this cycle on track is a clarification of the fourth sentence in the opening

:)

is this true live rock, wet rock from a reef tank at a pet store sold as live rock, or, is this dry rock called live rock by the poster simply because any rock is live rock to 99% of new tank setup owners until they learn the lingo

was this or was this not live rock at the start
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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and if it's not live rock, it was dry rock, we already know how fritz performs on day eight after setup plus feeding. Dr. Reef did the studies on it in his 100 page giant bottle bac thread

so either way, this cycle is done we are just trying to pinpoint the date when that already happened.

nothing stated in a test kit here would factor, because it's not from a tuned seneye (the ammonia reading, we'd ignore any data about nitrite or nitrate)

*sidenote. Dr. Reef did his study with an API, but he's Dr. Reef so I believed it
 

Jekyl

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and if it's not live rock, it was dry rock, we already know how fritz performs on day eight after setup plus feeding. Dr. Reef did the studies on it in his 100 page giant bottle bac thread

so either way, this cycle is done we are just trying to pinpoint the date when that already happened.

nothing stated in a test kit here would factor, because it's not from a tuned seneye (the ammonia reading, we'd ignore any data about nitrite or nitrate)
The argument is that live sand is just as good as live rock.
 

Freenow54

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Hey everyone,

I am cycling my first saltwater aquarium. My tag is a 35 gallon cube tank. I have a hang on the back filter. It has been cycling for about a week now I have live rock and live sand in the aquarium. I purchased Turbo start 900 and was wondering if it is too late to put the turbo start in or when the best time to put turbo start in, I have no fish in the tank as of now, but I know a lot of people will put turbo start in and then add fish a day or so after. Just wondering if I am on track to put the turbo star in. I also purchased Dr. Tim‘s ammonia chloride. Should I put that in before I put the turbo start in or put the turbo in and then add fish? Should I just forgo the Dr Tim’s?

Just looking for some advice.

Also, I have not purchased a light yet for the tag because a lot of what I haven’t been reading said wait until the cycle is over to add light. Any recommendations on a budget friendly light will add character to the tank. I do plan on having coral once I get full understanding of my tank.
Not familiar with the products mentioned. I followed an unnamed article . How to do a fishless cycle, They suggest Pure Ammonia which you can buy at a hardware store. They ay start at 5ppm. However once the bacteria starts never let it go over 5ppm. So They suggest getting aq calculated fraction in volume of your tank and bring level up to 5. Then you know the exact amount to add to your tank. by the way they said put all your furnishings in tank including filtration. Then add starter bacteria So once you measure Nitrites the cycle has begun. Measure every2 to 3 days. Then start lowering ammonia input. First phase can take up to 12 days. Attention NO FISH, and NO Light's. It is quite lengthy. You can Goggle search it. If you want I will take photos and post it here for you. Let me know.
 

Jekyl

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think you and me are the ones arguing that, lol. But some good info is the result. win/win
The way I look at it is like this... with the live sand it took 12 days for a cycle to complete. However with 1 good sized live rock, you don't have to worry a cycle at all and can add fish on day 1.
 

Bruttall

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The way I look at it is like this... with the live sand it took 12 days for a cycle to complete. However with 1 good sized live rock, you don't have to worry a cycle at all and can add fish on day 1.
The problem with that 1 good sized rock for me, was it would have several hundred dollar rock, I got around 360 gallons circulating total. I think it is possible I am thinking about requirements for a large system and your geared more to smaller systems?
 

Jekyl

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The problem with that 1 good sized rock for me, was it would have several hundred dollar rock, I got around 360 gallons circulating total. I think it is possible I am thinking about requirements for a large system and your geared more to smaller systems?
I have a 90g system so smaller, but not nano. Even with your 360 gallons you don't add all the fish at once. Even a 10lb live rock would be enough to sustain the first fish or 2 in that system. Once introduced the waste from the fish would being cycling the rest of the rock.
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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Taricha tested live sand and found it very strong and able to render ammonia I would believe it can count as a skip cycle, because initial bioloads in brand new setups don't run very high. a couple clownfish is easy, agreed it will act like live rock transfer for all but the largest initial loads.

my pet store once kept about 40 baby clownfish in a 20 with only live sand and a bubbler tube for months on end.

the bottle bac though was extensively tested and can handle loads on day one, so day eight implantation wait exceeds the documented time Dr. Reef and other testers have logged. thats why I didn't even look at stated test levels. do a water change, can reef.

in some of these posts people have dumped in a lot of ammonia, or have rotting shrimp etc. that's why we do the water change

the counted number of days always has a bioslick in place that withstands full water changes, that's how Dr Reef did every test: with a full water change to ensure bioslick deposition times were charted.

with the clean water in place we no longer need testing for the cycle. its the ultimate equalizer for things people add or do to initial reef water without telling us.
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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also

I make a lot of predictions about what a seneye would say for the last eight years. Dan_P and Taricha now have one, their findings are going to be a serious audit for claims so that'll be fun. Dan with a seneye running hq designed tests in the background and posting detailed charted findings with high degree of scientific relevance will change reef tank cycling science. and its coming soon as they test all manner of cycling boundaries in the coming year. they will benchmark the meter against a known level of nh3 to accurately gauge changes, rebound rates, all kinds of data we've never seen due to all of us guessing how red a test tube looks, or how greenish yellow

precision is here, it will change cycling rules and audit the soapboxes of the past. excellence is coming
 
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A

archiedoogs623

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Not familiar with the products mentioned. I followed an unnamed article . How to do a fishless cycle, They suggest Pure Ammonia which you can buy at a hardware store. They ay start at 5ppm. However once the bacteria starts never let it go over 5ppm. So They suggest getting aq calculated fraction in volume of your tank and bring level up to 5. Then you know the exact amount to add to your tank. by the way they said put all your furnishings in tank including filtration. Then add starter bacteria So once you measure Nitrites the cycle has begun. Measure every2 to 3 days. Then start lowering ammonia input. First phase can take up to 12 days. Attention NO FISH, and NO Light's. It is quite lengthy. You can Goggle search it. If you want I will take photos and post it here for you. Let me know.
Photos would be helpful thank you
 

Jekyl

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Photos would be helpful thank you
I'd dosing ammonia you only want to let it get to 2.0. Account for displacement of rock and sand etc when calculating dosage. Once your tank can go from 2.0 to zero in 48hrs it's done. At this point you should have nitrate available which is a solid indicator that the cycle is complete.
 

brandon429

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another cool way to audit this cycle here nobody ever tries

anyone reading: try and find one single example of a fritz bottle bac cycle that could not support fish life on day 9 after setup, post that link here

if you can't find one, this tank is cycled.
 

brandon429

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if this was a poker table I now move all chips in on the bet that finding a single provable example of any fritz bottle bac failure to carry fish on day 9 isn't practical

that's why this tank is cycled, because all findable results said so. we don't just have to haggle best estimated test readings, there's an objective measure.

what actually happened can be an objective measure

after dosing fritz bottle bac, did anyone's tank fail to carry fish and we are sure disease and acclimation can't factor by the thread details? let's see the thread.
 
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Freenow54

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Well when a yellow tang costs $300 I might take it a bit slower, and be sure. How many people admit screwing up?
 

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