Fish and Classical Conditioning

[Ebslinger]

I have been observing my 2 clown fish for the last several months and have began to wonder if they are becoming classically conditioned to certain stimulus.

For example, when the main return pump turns off, the clown fish stop what ever they are doing and head up to the automatic feeder.

They will then wait here, not matter how long I set the interval between the automatic feeder dropping food and the main return pump turning back on... Once the main return pump turns back on, they return to what ever they do...

Question 1): Has anyone else seen this response?

Question 2): Has anyone ever tried any Operant conditioning with commonly kept reef fish?

Looking forward to your replies.

Thank you.

 

[norfolkgarden]

Lol, some species are at least as smart as my neighbors dim witted dog.

Wait until you start chasing the coral nippers around with your finger and the other fish recognize which fish is busted and ignore the situation.
;-)

 

[Mastiffsrule]

Nice, fellow psyc major?

Description
Operant conditioning is a learning process through which the strength of a behavior is modified by reinforcement or punishment. It is also a procedure that is used to bring about such learning.

Fish can be subject to it. I bet if you ask how many of us have fish rush to a side of a tank when food is given most will say yes. I put a cup on top of my tank to thaw food and my fish will sit in the corner under it until I drop it in.

I saw one vid, guy got a fish to sim thru rings.

 

[Ebslinger]

LOL, I'm not a psyc major. But got into it because of a dog. (and well, a lot of introspection)

Was actually a Math/Physics Major

I train dogs. Just wondering if I should (can) train my fish for certain behaviors.

 

[norfolkgarden]

LOL, I'm not a psyc major. But got into it because of a dog. (and well, a lot of introspection)

Was actually a Math/Physics Major

I train dogs. Just wondering if I should (can) train my fish for certain behaviors.

Lol, SeaWorld's otter, sea lion, walrus show is the first thing that comes to mind.

You could probably train a sea lion to drive a modified golf cart. They are a crazy smart animal.
Otters are "flighty" and no attention span and minimal tricks, but still trainable.
Walrus follows a hand held fish across the platform then falls into the water. Probably max talent.

They build a narrative around the animals probable behaviors and anthropomorphize the heck out of 45 minutes of pure fun.

All positive conditioning. If the animal can't be convinced to do what the trainer wants it to do after a few tries they move on and make a joke about the animals being smarter than the trainers. ;-)

Based on the possible training levels of the fish we have had.
Flame hawks and longnose hawks. High.
Pointing at them and getting them to recognize you are not happy with them picking on someone else works surprisingly well.
Will they return to that behavior 5 minutes later. Yup!
They are like a cat that recognizes a water spray bottle.
2 minutes later when the bad behavior is being repeated your halfhearted reaching for the spray bottle is enough to get 5 more minutes of peace and quiet.
Permanent change in behavior over years. Lol, yeah, maybe.
Recognizing and stopping for 5 minutes. Yup, effortless.

After about the third time "The chasing finger" works temporarily on
Flame angels nipping coral, zebrasoma tangs tormenting other fish. (Most temporary)
Smaller Hawk fish annoying each other (so far the most effective)

The best part is when it is like a group of 5 kids with one instigator and you know which 1 is the instigator.
The other 4 know that they are pretty much off the hook this time and kind of go about their business knowing they are sort of safe.
You can chase the bad guy around the tank with the finger and get it to run away without completely freaking out the other fish.

Ok, so maybe I'm at the crazy cat lady stage. ;-)

Dottybacks high
Royal gramma low
Anthias low
Cardinals low?
H. Chrysus low. Lol, don't care if you exist or not. They already have an agenda.
Fairy wrasse high
Melanurus medium to high. Both above are instant repeat offenders. 2 minutes peace and quiet max.
Ocelaris clowns. Low? Never do anything bad anyway. Both hand fed mostly.

Lol, higly aggressive fish that are usually in a tank as individuals, both carnivores and herbivores, seem to be the smartest.

@4FordFamily @HotRocks any thoughts?

 

[ZsWithTheFishes]

Classical conditioning should be a given for most fish owners. I have bottom feeders that hide until they hear the pop of the aquarium lid.

Operant conditioning is a little more iffy: I had a puffer that would get aggressive during feeding time, and so I would chase him away from the other fish when I first put food in the tank. The behavior stopped after some time, but whether he was making the association between his action and the consequence or he was just classically conditioned to avoid a 2-minute long PVC attack when food enters the tank is up for debate.

A psychology major would suggest that you could prove it with peer reviewed studies. But, anecdotally, even those are always up for debate.
https://bioone.org/journals/copeia/...eir-Natural-Environment/10.1643/CE-14-185.pdf

 

[4FordFamily]

I surprisingly do not know much on this topic, but do believe that classical conditioning plays a role. I personally feel that there is great variance in fish intelligence depending on the species.

I’d be curious if @evolved or @eatbreakfast have stumbled in to anything more relevant on this topic.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Fish have a surprisingly large memory both for negative and positive stimuli. My pond fish will come to the surface to eat when i stand on the edge they do not do the same when a kid does this. They remember i feed, they remember little people try to catch them.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/sc...-memories-last-for-months-say-scientists.html

 

[eatbreakfast]

Individual puffers have been trained to pick out shapes to get a food reward, there's a video somewhere, but Tetradonts are on the "high" end of fish intelligence.

Though not reef fish, goldfish can be taught to swim through hoops, and in my opinion aren't terribly bright as far as fish go.

 

[mort]

Fish have a really strong body clock that I don't know if it would be classed as conditioning or not. My fish know the exact time the auto feeder will go off as they all congregate in that area just before its due to drop a tasty morsal.
My marine betta comes used to come out as soon as the pumps went off as it associates that with feeding, now it just comes to the tongs.

I also find fish very easy to train to tongs and mandarins pick up where the feeding corners are quickly and move over to them if you give them a little warning.

 

[Jesterrace]

My fish are all smart enough to tell the difference between me and my wife. I generally feed from the left side of the tank and she generally feeds from the right. So when I approach the tank they generally head to the left side and when she approaches they head to the right. My melanurus wrasse also does a sort of looping "dance for it's dinner" when it sees us near the tank around feeding times. I have seen the temporary relief of bad behavior with finger pointing against the Melanurus Wrasse (when it gets territorial around the leopard wrasse at feeding time) and when my coral beauty took an initial interest in certain corals (thankfully decided it doesn't like the taste of Euphyllia Corals).

 

[evolved]

I surprisingly do not know much on this topic, but do believe that classical conditioning plays a role. I personally feel that there is great variance in fish intelligence depending on the species.

I’d be curious if @evolved or @eatbreakfast have stumbled in to anything more relevant on this topic.

I don't know of any official studies on the topic, but I certainly agree and have experienced similar things as others are reporting here. My fish definitely know what time it is and what usually happens around those times, and they also know when I get the food cup out of the fridge across the room.

 

[4FordFamily]

My fish are all smart enough to tell the difference between me and my wife. I generally feed from the left side of the tank and she generally feeds from the right. So when I approach the tank they generally head to the left side and when she approaches they head to the right. My melanurus wrasse also does a sort of looping "dance for it's dinner" when it sees us near the tank around feeding times. I have seen the temporary relief of bad behavior with finger pointing against the Melanurus Wrasse (when it gets territorial around the leopard wrasse at feeding time) and when my coral beauty took an initial interest in certain corals (thankfully decided it doesn't like the taste of Euphyllia Corals).

My fish definitely recognize individual people. I had a Blonde Naso that HATED MY GUTS for a few years before power issues took my tanks out in 2016 while on vacation. If I walked downstairs she bolted and hid. My wife, kids, friends, neighbors -no such reaction. I don't understand, I was the ONLY one that fed them...

 

[SashimiTurtle]

My fish can tell time. Around 8:00pm they all gather in the top right front corner of the tank, the same corner I always feed them in and around the time that I feed them.

 

[brandon429]

my fish are tap trained. tap then feed for 1 year. fishlovian response= I tap the glass and don't feed them and they freak out taking bites off the glass

 

[ZipAdeeZoa]

Interesting topic!

In relation to the feeding portion of this discussion, I wonder what role the circadian rhythm has in this and what zeitgebers contribute in the most direct way? Flow and light patterns certainly seem likely to have more prominence than others. I know fish are more intelligent than we thought they were but I can't help but think that in some cases we may be misinterpreting chronobiology for intelligence. Admittedly intelligence very likely plays a role in the accuracy, sustainability and speed of adaptation of the rhythm. I would be very interested to see what extent they effect one another in the fish we keep!

Great questions!

 

[Mastiffsrule]

:)

Fish have a really strong body clock that I don't know if it would be classed as conditioning or not. My fish know the exact time the auto feeder will go off as they all congregate in that area just before its due to drop a tasty morsal.
My marine betta comes used to come out as soon as the pumps went off as it associates that with feeding, now it just comes to the tongs.

I also find fish very easy to train to tongs and mandarins pick up where the feeding corners are quickly and move over to them if you give them a little warning.

I liken it to Skinner box behavior. Food is the reward when an action is done. Pumps off means food is coming. I bet if someone built a feeder attached to a lever, every time food comes out eventually the fish would figure it out.

Anyone have kids in science needing a project? We’re talking Nobel prize of the reefing world.

 

[puffy127]

My puffer lets me pet it because it knows it gets food right afterwards:

 

[vetteguy53081]

Its more fish smarts, biological scheduling and sounds

I have a apex AFS feeder and at the sound of the feeder engaging, theyre all at the left corner

 

[JAM-MAN]

I have been observing my 2 clown fish for the last several months and have began to wonder if they are becoming classically conditioned to certain stimulus.

For example, when the main return pump turns off, the clown fish stop what ever they are doing and head up to the automatic feeder.

They will then wait here, not matter how long I set the interval between the automatic feeder dropping food and the main return pump turning back on... Once the main return pump turns back on, they return to what ever they do...

Question 1): Has anyone else seen this response?

Question 2): Has anyone ever tried any Operant conditioning with commonly kept reef fish?

Looking forward to your replies.

Thank you.

I'm raising a female Mandarin from Biota. When I turn off the powerhead she heads to the back of the tank where I feed live pods or brine shrimp. Rest of the time hunts the tank, even mid water column. She's the only fish, as she was tiny on delivery. Now about 3x the weight and 2x the length in 6 weeks.

I also have a pair of clowns who almost climb out of the tank when you approach with anything. So, yes conditioned.