Fish breathing fast requires 02/surface movement, right? Not so fast.

[pseudorand]

This may be a cautionary tail rather than a question. If your fish are breathing fast (100 gill movements per minute is fast), you may be tempted to increase surface tension to promote oxygen exchange. Before you do that, triple check that ammonia test.

It can't be ammonia
Today I noticed some of my fish in QT were breathing fast. I knew ammonia can cause this, but I had just done a water test the night before and recorded 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrite and 5ppm nitrate. Last week I did some large water changes because nitrates had hit 20+ppm, probably from me trying different seaweeds to get my new (1 week ago) foxface and tomini tang to eat their veg. Nitrates only come from nitrifying bacteria (I think), so if they hit 20ppm the tank (which as been up for almost 2 months), must surely be well cycled -- it can't be ammonia. Last week I did read between 0 and 0.25 ppm ammonia and 0.25ppm nitrite when nitrates hit 20ppm, but I had just added 4 fish and probably over-fed. Two 25% water changes over two days had fixed that, right?

Surface tension/O2
This 39g QT only has a HOB for water movement and it has a cover. "They must not be getting enough oxygen," I thought. I turned on two powerheads near the surface I had used for coral QT. They were a bit overpowered for fish QT, but they sure did get the surface moving. No dice. I added an airstone, but after a few hours their breathing just seemed to be getting worse.

Flukes?
I even convinced myself it was gill flukes and fw-dipped my wrasse. He has a white bump on his eye, which I think is a Capsalidae (relative of a fluke). But 36h of PraziPro hadn't work on it. "He must also have prazi-resistent gill flukes, and they've spread to to the foxface, who is also breathing fast," I told myself.

It's probably ammonia and I may have killed all my fish in QT.
Anyway, I decided to do yet another water test tonight and ammonia came up 0.25. The greenish yellow (0ppm) and yellowish green (0.25ppm) on the API test kit aren't vividly distinct from each other, so I think I must have mis-read yesterday's ammonia test. I saw nitrates, so I didn't look to hard at the other two. But today I did an ammonia test on my DT as well to compare them side-by-side, and the QT is definitely closer to 0.25ppm (the DT is clearly 0ppm).

Don't aerate that ammonium!
As many of you probably know, you're not supposed to drip-acclimate mail order fish because the less toxic ammonium that builds up with less oxygen but quickly converts to gill-burning ammonia when you open the bag. I think that's what I did to my QT when I turned on the powerheads. The tank has a glass cover, the HOB has a cover and relatively low flow. I suspect low oxygen was suppressing the worst effects of the ammonia, and my aeration "opened the bag". I've done another 40% water change just now, but I expect I'll need some tartar sauce by morning.

Takeaway
It's always the simple things -- don't get bogged down in complicated causes before really, truly ruling out the simple ones.

Question
Does that all sound plausible to anyone? Or might I really have Prazi-resisitent gill flukes or something else?

 

[Richard ML]

Is everyone behaving normally (swimming, eating, coloration) other than the fast breathing? Honestly, fish can just get a bit stressed in the first couple months in a new environment -- especially a small lil' QT tank. If you're getting <0.25ppm ammonia, especially on the false-positive prone API kit, I can't see aeration causing your problem.

Plus, the API kit is supposed to detect all forms of ammonia, both free (toxic) and bound (non-toxic). It shouldn't change depending on levels of aeration (which should really encourage oxidation, i.e. the nitrogen cycle). I can't see a well-ventilated setup (that is, a setup that isn't a plastic bag sealed and shipped across the country) experiencing an ammonia spike due to an increase in aeration. Diffusion wants to happen on its own - you could probably hit O2/CO2 equilibrium with atmosphere in any given aquarium by giving the surface a quick stir every few hours.

I wouldn't assume flukes or ich or anything until your pals start behaving oddly.

Maybe your fish just get excited when you walk up to the tank. Mine do, and it takes my foxface (scaredy cat) a few minutes to slow down every time I come see him.

I mean, if you're super worried, you can add some Seachem Prime, Safe, or some other approprate conditioner. This'll detoxify (bind, or convert back to ammonium? not entirely sure of the mechanism) any ammonia present. Just be aware this will likely cause a false positive on your API test.

Do you have a Seachem Ammonia Alert badge on your QT?


I'd also like to add: I greatly appreciate how nicely formatted and thought out your original post is. Very nice!

 

[pseudorand]

Well, the wrasse I did a freshwater dip on died. Everyone else is still alive for the moment.

 

[Tankkeepers]

I just want to point out that aireating your tank with ammonia in it won't make it more toxic the reason you don't drip acclimate mail order fish is becouse when you do the ph rises making the ammonium turn to ammonia if your tank is so lacking in o2 that you have ammonium your probly going to suficate your fish anyway

Ammonia and ammonium are different forms of nitrogen. The major factor that determines the proportion of ammonia to ammonium in water is pH. ... It is important to remember as un‐ionized NH 3 can be harmful to aquatic organisms, while ionized ammonium is basically harmless

 

[Tankkeepers]

Also if you added a bunch of extra food you dont normally add that caused your spike as there are only a set number of each bacteria in the system to account for what normally comes in if you add extra you start a mini cycle

 

[pseudorand]

I just want to point out that aireating your tank with ammonia in it won't make it more toxic the reason you don't drip acclimate mail order fish is becouse when you do the ph rises making the ammonium turn to ammonia if your tank is so lacking in o2 that you have ammonium your probly going to suficate your fish anyway

Ammonia and ammonium are different forms of nitrogen. The major factor that determines the proportion of ammonia to ammonium in water is pH. ... It is important to remember as un‐ionized NH 3 can be harmful to aquatic organisms, while ionized ammonium is basically harmless

The pH rises because the carbonic acid equilibrium falls as dissolved CO2 can escape into air with less CO2 than the bag, correct? Where does the o2 come in? If ammonium buildup is coincidental with not enough o2 for breathing, why don't fish suffocate in the bag when shipped?

I am skeptical of my own hypothesis above simply because my tank is nowhere near as air-tight as a bag. But I have no idea how quickly gas exchange happens. There's lots of advice (possibly all bad) out there claiming that surface agitation helps gas exchange, implying that no surface agitation can lead to insufficient gas exchange.

I also had a pH reading of 7.4 on Thursday when I had my first mini ammonia spike that I temporarily cured with a water change. I added surface agitation before testing anything yesterday because I though the 0 ammonia reading the night before ruled that out. pH was 7.8 Saturday night though. It could have been that ammonium spiked and pH fell between Saturday night and Sunday, and I exacerbated the problem by adding surface agitation, causing pH to rise.

I think my takeaway still stands: If you see heavy breathing, make really sure you rule out ammonia first. Even if gas exchange can't get bad enough to allow ammonium to build up instead of ammonia in a non-sealed container, missing the ammonia problem (like I did) is bad. Surface agitation may be easier to fix, but it should still be the second, thing to try.

 

[pseudorand]

Also if you added a bunch of extra food you dont normally add that caused your spike as there are only a set number of each bacteria in the system to account for what normally comes in if you add extra you start a mini cycle

Yes, which is how I explained my mini ammonia spike on Thursday night. I sucked out as much debris as I could during my water change and cut back on feeding since then, thinking I had dealt with the problem.

The two things thing I'm still wondering are:
* Did I mis-read the ammonia test on Saturday night, or could ammonia have spiked quickly during the day on Sunday?
* Could adding surface agitation have exacerbated the problem, adding oxygen but lowering CO2 and raising pH, converting ammonium into ammonia?

 

[Tankkeepers]

Not saying that ammonia does not cause heavy breathing only stating if your o2 is low enoff and co2 high enoff to cause ammonia to become ammonium thus ph being low you are indanger of sufficing your fish at this point not to mention the other problems that will occur

If the pH is low, the equilibrium shifts to the right: more ammonia molecules are converted into ammonium ions. If the pH is high (the concentration of hydrogen ions is low), the equilibrium shifts to the left: the hydroxide ion abstracts a proton from the ammonium ion, generating ammonia


water can only hold so much gas and by adding o2 co2 is pushed out causing a ph swing and buy converting 02 to co2 you cause a ph swing and you said it yourself your ph was 7.4 to 7.8 which means that you had ammonia not ammonium by aireating the water farther you did not make it more toxic as suggested

Yes very very good takeaway check ammonia levels and o2 levels when you see heavy breathing

 

[Tankkeepers]

Also above post is correct the test tests for total not just ammonia

 

[Tankkeepers]

My guess is that there was still some extra food left you could not get to causing the slight spike and heavy breathing

 

[Tankkeepers]

Or may of just been stress hope they have settled down now and live long happy lives

 

[Richard ML]

The water is gonna want to reach equilibrium with the ambient air via diffusion/osmosis. In junior high science class, did you by chance do an osmosis experiment in which chemicals flowed through a semi permeable membrane (i.e. a Ziploc bag) even though the membrane was watertight? The surface of a body of water is surely far more permeable than plastic.

Osmosis will happen even with a still surface, albeit slowly, and maybe more slowly than your fish can consume the O2 in the water depending on the fish-to-water-volume ratio.

If you have any sort of regular surface disturbance I can't see any way it could be too far off of equilibrium (that is, the maximum dissolved level of oxygen the water could reach when interfacing with 21% O2 air) .

Look at how long tanks can remain oxygenated during power outages with a single battery powered wave maker.

 

[Tankkeepers]

Or the stir of a spoon every few hours of had to do this long ago not fun

 

[pseudorand]

The water is gonna want to reach equilibrium with the ambient air via diffusion. In junior high science class, did you by chance do a diffusion experiment in which chemicals flowed through a semi permeable membrane (i.e. a Ziploc bag) even though the membrane was watertight? The surface of a body of water is surely far more permeable than plastic.

Diffusion will happen even with a still surface, albeit slowly, and maybe more slowly than your fish can consume the O2 in the water depending on the fish-to-water-volume ratio.

If you have any sort of regular surface disturbance I can't see any way it could be too far off of equilibrium (that is, the maximum dissolved level of oxygen the water could reach when interfacing with 21% O2 air) .

Look at how long tanks can remain oxygenated during power outages with a single battery powered wave maker.

So is all the advice about using air stones total bunk? (Unless it's the only water movement you have, of course). And does a tight-fitting lit (wrasses are jumpers) make no difference?

And yes, diffusion makes sense, but it's all about rate, not the concept or direction. I'm reluctant to conclude that anything short of a sealed container or perfectly still water will be at equilibrium, but if there's data on that, it would be good to know we can throw out the ammonia/ammonium hypothesis.

 

[Tankkeepers]

In freshwater planted tanks as an example we actually dose co2 into the water and try and have as least as possible surface agitation as the co2 will quickly escape as the water trys to correct itself

 

[Richard ML]

So is all the advice about using air stones total bunk? (Unless it's the only water movement you have, of course). And does a tight-fitting lit (wrasses are jumpers) make no difference?

And yes, diffusion makes sense, but it's all about rate, not the concept or direction. I'm reluctant to conclude that anything short of a sealed container or perfectly still water will be at equilibrium, but if there's data on that, it would be good to know we can throw out the ammonia/ammonium hypothesis.

RE: a tight fitting lid: unless it's airtight, the air under the lid is going to be pretty much the same as the air outside of it. Molecules are tiny. A one millimeter gap could fit billions of O2 molecules abreast. They're gonna diffuse for sure and equalize since it's all gas.

As for the rate... If the surface is still... I have no idea. But if there's movement, it just doesn't make sense to me that it could be too far off of saturation. However, I am not a scientist. Just a dude trying to reason through things.

 

[Tankkeepers]

Or my turtle tank which also houses goldfish it is compleatly covered with no surface movment other then the turtle splashing ever now and again as he swims with no problems

 

[Tankkeepers]

I would look past the water oxygenation turning ammonium to ammonia and move onto the ammonia you may of had because of over feed as dissolved organics dont break down right away and the rest of food that you could not get all of being the cause of the spike

 

[Tankkeepers]

I will add tho some people even go as far as using an stone to hyper oxygenated their water durring the night causing microbubbles to scrub the tank aparently helps with algea never done this myself but what iv read it works just some food for thought