Fishless Cycle Question

[Steelheader09]

I have always cycled with fish. This time i went fishless. Well these are my results 11 days in. The bottle says 5 days which i doubted from the begining. Is there a point where intervention is needed? i.e more bacteria or something. I figure its gonna take a while.

 

[brandon429]

those look like 3/4 of the readings from any ammonia test picture on the net.


lets see tank pics, so we can assess surface area degree and location

and which brand of bac— this gives us your completion date, it’s on the label.


some factors in favor of your cycle not being stuck:
-you are at the submersion time a cycling chart shows for ammonia control
-all brands of bac meant for cycling are done by this time.
-all seemingly non compliant cycle threads are those two kits, never seneye.

we have a way to proof your kits as is btw, and it starts with a complete or near complete water change you know must export any claimed ammonia to a safe level. post pics then, I bet they still show ammonia anyway if the pics are actually from the new tank water (these are things we've collected time and time again in posts)

we proof your cycle by first proving those kits can show a total zero condition on the tank, NOT on a water sample that is not the tank with slicks in place. once you get a provable baseline for zero/safe by physically guaranteeing that condition, we then dose up ammonia very slightly to cause a minor change in the readings.

 

[brandon429]

an exacting case in point of where your cycle stands

100% Water Change

Just perfect! Ok we watch for number three pic in 24-48 hours, really great. This is a clear documentation can’t wait Even if it takes till Sunday to get motion down that means cycled. but If no change in color by Sunday nite, a stuck cycle, my worst fear lol this is like when you bet your...

www.reef2reef.com

his said 8 ppm stalled. then in one day later it became a reef and we can track it to this day.<------------ also plays a role in me adding Fish Disease preps as the #1 concern for cycling 2021 and beyond, its never about stuck ammonia or nitrite


yes I realize some folks have seen and measured dead bottle bac. That's why cycle chart ammonia wait days count. I bet your system passes a calibrated test like above, and I bet your bottle bac wasn't dead.



*the initial blast of ammonia everyone advocates is orders beyond a common starting bioload, I think these tests arent designed for that level of work. that's why water change calibration and NOT dosing the new test back to 2 ppm works, as we show above. I propose that actually getting 2 ppm to zero on those kits was merely the lag time the kits can deal with the trending down, not the actual rate. any seneye owner fishless cycle verifier knows the rate free ammonia is uptaken, about five minutes. things never ever get above 1 ppm in a seneye ran cycle even though the degree of ammonia you input above moved both kits to the max.

 

[brandon429]

A very handy trend we can each verify or shoot down: google any stuck cycling thread post and go deep into the pages where I'm not swaying the search results. find a neutral party assessment on stuck cycles, the predictable trend is the stated ammonia level is NEVER debated for accuracy and 100% turned into a dead bacteria/not enough/you wait 5x longer than the bottle directions say situation.

yet reef conventions start on time, and if you have seen any of them lately in person or virtually you know a section for totally dry starts exist, and they have the massive # of clownfish in the tank proving it. Uncycled, those demo tanks would die within one hour and you wouldnt need a test kit to see that.

forum cyclers=always stuck. always buying, waiting, consequence-laden.

convention cyclers: never misses a start date, not ever, nobody was ever seen packing up the tank from a convention: well, we just can't get that cycling done by Friday Im going home.

the updated rules to reef cycling address constant misreads, for pages, on google and how that affected our understanding of cycling.


we discuss in cycling updates how sometimes a titration kit is not telling the entire picture about your cycle we then collect the outcomes as links for review.

@elysics

I'm curious to know your counterpoint. I'd enjoy hearing from you

Am aware you do not accept my nonconformist views on cycling, so your counter input is best. Is his cycle stuck, because the tests clearly say that above?

if you had to pick a date this reef could join into Macna let's say...something to pin down a start date vs 'wait longer', what date would that be?

if that was my tank the start date would be day fifteen, I'd have started that setup above fifteen days earlier to guarantee readiness for sure/entering a convention or adding initial bioload. fifteen days + fresh change water covers most variations we'll ever see in a wet cycling attempt. I wouldnt have even tested for ammonia compliance. that's five days beyond a cycle chart for ammonia plus massive feeding and inoculation on my part half a month early is why.

one of the benefits of updated cycling science is the bridging of the rules between convention cyclers and forum cyclers who are currently six miles apart on procedure.

 

[Azedenkae]

I have always cycled with fish. This time i went fishless. Well these are my results 11 days in. The bottle says 5 days which i doubted from the begining. Is there a point where intervention is needed? i.e more bacteria or something. I figure its gonna take a while.

Nah since you are reading nitrites you are good, shows nitrification is going on. ^_^

Just keep on following the cycling process.

 

[Steelheader09]

A very handy trend we can each verify or shoot down: google any stuck cycling thread post and go deep into the pages where I'm not swaying the search results. find a neutral party assessment on stuck cycles, the predictable trend is the stated ammonia level is NEVER debated for accuracy and 100% turned into a dead bacteria/not enough/you wait 5x longer than the bottle directions say situation.

the updated rules to reef cycling address that.
we discuss in cycling updates how sometimes a titration kit is not telling the entire picture about your cycle we then collect the outcomes as links for review.

@elysics

I'm curious to know your counterpoint. I'd enjoy hearing from you

Am aware you do not accept my nonconformist views on cycling, so your counter input is best. Is his cycle stuck, because the tests clearly say that above?

if you had to pick a date this reef could join into Macna let's say...something to pin down a start date vs 'wait longer', what date would that be?

if that was my tank the start date would be day fifteen, I'd have started that setup above fifteen days earlier to guarantee readiness for sure/entering a convention or adding initial bioload. fifteen days + fresh change water covers most variations we'll ever see in a wet cycling attempt. I wouldnt have even tested for ammonia compliance. that's five days beyond a cycle chart for ammonia plus massive feeding and inoculation on my part half a month early is why.

Ok so. This is what the tank looks like. Also, there is 4L of Seachem matrix in the sump. Aslo, would flow have great effect? I am currently waiting for wavemakers to come in so flow is rather low at this time.

 

[Steelheader09]

Oh, and the bacteria is Microbacter StartXLM

 

[brandon429]

thats too much water for the change and proof. I can tell you this however, on day fifteen if you add life, it will live and feed and respire. you know we've been collecting about 5k cycling outcomes these last few years and day 15 is the sweet spot in all their glorious variance. I wouldnt add any more ammonia, and what you've added will be non toxic by then.

based on exceptional surface area up top and down below, and a fifteen day wait, and a simple exercise challenge for any reader to link us one single example of a failed cycle where initial bioload couldnt be carried in a fish-in cycle reef tank, Im confident on the day fifteen thing. I think today's non digital testers have caused so much trouble in the hobby, methods that exclude them fully are now preferable and that's where my guesstimate comes from, the feedback on the timing based approach.

I think if you hooked up a calibrated seneye to that system it would show thousandths

 

[brandon429]

Tank cycling

I've just setup a 100gallon tank and has been cycling for about 5 weeks...ive been testing and everything seemed fine .... But now I'm only getting ammonia reading at about 0.50 and not seeing any nitrite or nitrate...is my tank cycled??

www.nano-reef.com

review those troubleshoots, and consider the tank is over 30 days cycled.

its completed

but see how they evaluate 2ppm firmly required, zero firmly required, and nobody would ever allow for a test misreading even though I spent twelve years there prior lol

those reefs can move ammonia, down to the best we're going to get zero on an API kit and they're also not considering TAN conversion which Dan helped me to understand prior, or they'd be reporting 2 ppm to .025 end point which is massive movement. this is an example above of both the lag time and the final read in non calibrated approaches.

that post is a 100% caption of old cycling rules vs the rules conventions use. Yours at merely just over a week was a much closer call than a 40 day cycling tank + bac.

I personally believe the divide between convention cycling and forum cycling for buyers is too large to bridge, the peers repeat the unfounded info to each other no matter the new findings...linked in post #3 above. If sampled before seeing the outcome of our link 100% of forum advisors would say Jacks reef was no where near cycled.

but it sure was, its right there for the click follow through in post #3.

I wanted you to see that even if you wait forty days, on old school cycling rules you'll still be told to wait longer. Old cycling rules can never, ever ever pinpoint a start date for anyone. its all wait up to 90 days, after paying for 48 hour-able bac. that doubt is what keeps buyers in the buyers category for all their reefing.

 

[arking_mark]

I have always cycled with fish. This time i went fishless. Well these are my results 11 days in. The bottle says 5 days which i doubted from the begining. Is there a point where intervention is needed? i.e more bacteria or something. I figure its gonna take a while.

Which fishless cycle did you use?

A couple observations:
1. If you have Nitrite, your Nitrate reading are going to be way off. I recommend just using these types of tests as yes or no to having Nitrite/Nitrate.
2. These types of Ammonia tests are also finicky and rarely go to zero. So if it's like 0.25 your good to go.
3. If your looking for accuracy, Seneye is great.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Cycling is a 2-4 week process adding ZERO livestock as there will be daily chemical changes and swings occuring that may simply kill livestock.
API test kit is notorious for false readings and have let down many reefers hence the very low price for a master test kit. You will likely have inaccurate readings during the cycle process.
Ammonia badges have the same credibility as they are also intended for fresh water tanks ands also known for false readings.
What is cycling supposed to be ??
Decades ago, hobbyists would cycle their new tank with a sacrificial fish, like a blue damsel. While this method may still be used by some, it's not a good plan for two reasons: 1) as the ammonia rises in the water, the fish's gills are burned by the rising ammonia levels which is unkind, and 2) most people don't want the damsel in their aquarium later because it's deemed too aggressive to other livestock.
Once you fill up your aquarium with saltwater, powerheads, a heater and perhaps add sand for substrate, the next step is to "cycle" your tank. The purpose of a cycle is to create bacteria that will be consuming ammonia and nitrite from your livestock, but you have to get the bacteria from somewhere initially. Why is it called a cycle? Because the tank will go through three phases: ammonia will rise and fall, then nitrite will rise and fall even quicker, and lastly nitrate will rise and fall. Once Ammonia and Nitrite read 0 and Nitrate is less than 20ppm, the cycle is complete and livestock can gradually be introduced. The bacteria population will increase with the new bioload, processing waste and converting it to nitrate rapidly. However, it is important to note that overloading the aquarium with too many fish initially can exceed what the bacteria can handle. This is why it is best to add new fish slowly over the next few months. The bacterial levels will adapt if you don't overload the system with too many mouths to feed.

How long does the cycle generally last? Using the three test kits to measure results daily, you'll likely see the process takes 21 days. There are several ways to cycle a tank, but the easiest one is to run up to the supermarket, go to the seafood deli counter and ask for one large shrimp. If they sell it with the head, even better. One shrimp will cost about $1. Don't worry if they think you're crazy to buy only one; this is not the first time someone will wonder about your motivations with this hobby.
We're all crazy the day we considered getting into the saltwater hobby !!
Leave the shrimp in the tank for 72 hours. That's it. It may even visibly rot, or envelope in some type of mucous. That's what needs to happen. As the shrimp rots, ammonia is released into the water, and bacteria is growing exponentially, spreading into the substrate. The water may even look a little cloudy, which is totally normal and nothing to be concerned about. After three days, remove the shrimp and throw it away. It is no longer needed. Test for ammonia and see what it measures. It should read at the very least 1ppm, or higher.
Test the aquarium daily for Ammonia, and Nitrate, logging the information on graph paper or perhaps in a spreadsheet or app. The more data points you collect over time will graph the rise and fall of each of these parameters. No livestock of any kind should be placed in the aquarium as long as you have any measurable traces of ammonia or nitrite because these are toxic to fish and invertebrates. Start planning what you'll want to put in your aquarium while you have a few weeks to wait. There's no reason to rush this process. A good solid foundation will benefit your future reef and handle the bioload adequately.
Also - If you are running the system with a sump that has a refugium or Algae Turf Scrubber section, don't add any light or plants because the system is too clean.

 

[blasterman]

Why constantly test ammonia levels? Will it make the tank cycle faster? You guys LOVE testing stuff.

When you make a stupid tray of ice cubes do you constantly test the temperature and say " its almost frozen" ? No, because it will eventually freeze.

Throw some ammonia in the tank, and when ammonia starts to dive the tank will be cycled in a few more days. The ammonia eating bacteria grow exponentially so its inevitable. This is when you get a nitrate kit which isn't prone to errors like the API ammonia test kit trash. If nitrate is present and/or climbing tank is cycled. Add starter livestock.

If you have a desire at this point to anakyze and test nitrite (i have never owned a nitrite test kit and never will) or banter about API false readings get a taser and shoot yourself with it. Repeat as necessary until you stop doing this

Now focus on real problems like the ugly phase.

 

[arking_mark]

Why constantly test ammonia levels? Will it make the tank cycle faster? You guys LOVE testing stuff.

When you make a stupid tray of ice cubes do you constantly test the temperature and say " its almost frozen" ? No, because it will eventually freeze.

Throw some ammonia in the tank, and when ammonia starts to dive the tank will be cycled in a few more days. The ammonia eating bacteria grow exponentially so its inevitable. This is when you get a nitrate kit which isn't prone to errors like the API ammonia test kit trash. If nitrate is present and/or climbing tank is cycled. Add starter livestock.

If you have a desire at this point to anakyze and test nitrite (i have never owned a nitrite test kit and never will) or banter about API false readings get a taser and shoot yourself with it. Repeat as necessary until you stop doing this

Now focus on real problems like the ugly phase.

It's part of the hobby to watch your tank cycle. I used a Seneye and Dr Tims fishless cycle. It charted perfectly. Day 10 ammonnia dropped below toxicity and day 11 I was at zero ammonia.

 

[brandon429]

here is one that shows timeframes for bottle bac

Bio-spira works great

I just started a new tank a little over a week ago. I started with all dry rock and new sand. I added a bottle of Bio-Spira and put fish and coral the same day. Never saw any ammonia and fish and coral seem healthy.

www.reef2reef.com

why does any of this matter? Because disease preps are the most important aspect of cycling. The ammonia is fixed when you tip the bottle.


trace that tank above start to current

ammonia and trite were a nothing issue, as is all fish in cycles (plus three hundred dollar large anemone on day one above)

what became his issue though, nearing that first year

 

[brandon429]

*I rate steelheads post using what we consider to be among the slowest bottle bac about as fast as we can push it.


if this was Fritz or biospira we can see how those work instantly


truly I dont recall any fish-in cycles with this brand but it’s in Dr Reefs big bottle bac thread for detailing if anyone wants. Two weeks and a water change hasn’t let us down, it’s nice to have a means for starting now that won’t depend on the kits above.

 

[Steelheader09]

*I rate steelheads post using what we consider to be among the slowest bottle bac about as fast as we can push it.


if this was Fritz or biospira we can see how those work instantly


truly I dont recall any fish-in cycles with this brand but it’s in Dr Reefs big bottle bac thread for detailing if anyone wants. Two weeks and a water change hasn’t let us down, it’s nice to have a means for starting now that won’t depend on the kits above.

Brightwell is new to the market for starting bac. I love their other products so figured i would test it. You are right there is very little info in the XLM out there.

 

[monkeyCmonkeyDo]

Using api tests and the human eyes. Ha! Good.luck.
Give it time. Ur gut feeling after the 1st month will.kick in. Ull test and be good.
Fwiw all the ppl using "bottle bacteria"... would you think if i filled a bottle up of my sw from my tank and let it sit on a shelf for say 3-6months well it was being packaged and shipped and sold would still be beneficial bacteria or just old cold sw? Lol.
You want to start bacteria process. Not add it. Idk how to explain that...
D

 

[Steelheader09]

I feel like i need to clarify something. I'm not new to the hobby. I understand the concept of cycling. This will be the 5th or 6th tank i have started. I have just never done fishless and was unsure of times frames. Also this is my first time using the Brightwell bac. I used to use niteout II.

 

[Steelheader09]

Using api tests and the human eyes. Ha! Good.luck.
Give it time. Ur gut feeling after the 1st month will.kick in. Ull test and be good.
Fwiw all the ppl using "bottle bacteria"... would you think if i filled a bottle up of my sw from my tank and let it sit on a shelf for say 3-6months well it was being packaged and shipped and sold would still be beneficial bacteria or just old cold sw? Lol.
You want to start bacteria process. Not add it. Idk how to explain that...
D

I have used it with success before. When i used Niteout II i put fish in same day, never lost one. I have seen independant tests showing that bacteria are present in the bottle. Do i believe in all the products, no, but i do belive they help turn a previously long process into a much shorter one.

 

[brandon429]

I find the study of allowable start dates fascinating. It’s no longer about wait longer, people want a known safe start date and we have patterns on file to allow for that. The right degree of wait is the length of time it takes a particular approach to handle its fish's initial waste and ongoing feeding needs, that's the date we like to predict and inspect in follow ups. Nitrite has zero factoring in any start date analysis it's all about ammonia control in 2021+

I have never ever seen a seneye unit reflect what any titration kit shows, even after tan conversion. In 100% of comparative examples the titration kit causes alarm. a tuned seneye soothes alarm, that’s the disparity in today’s ammonia testing.

*chemists know to be skeptical of everything, seneye has no other testers to digitally proof it as accurate or not but I’d ask this: which tester reports ammonia nh3 levels found on natural reefs, and more accurately portrays what we actually see going on in reef tanks regarding fish health, water clarity, feeding behaviors etc (hallmarks of a cycled tank)

The red sea always reads .2 in our collections, the seneye reports .002 on a real reef tank and then Jon M moved the exact unit to a low surface area QT setup and it moves up to .02, an exacting match to the loss of surface area.


this is why I choose seneye as the best current reflector of cycling reference.

so long before anyone takes time to compare hach digital ammonia readings against seneye, seneye is the one directly reflecting all the context we can see for the readings. cant wait for final proofs on seneye one day.

to heck with Jake Paul, I want to see a seneye vs hach nh3 accuracy fight.