Garlic supplement?

[Tbird165]

I don't think you'll find any data to to prove if it works or prove if it doesn't

 

[Lionfish Lair]

I don't think you'll find any data to to prove if it works or prove if it doesn't

But in order to say it causes harm, there still should be proof, especially if one is saying it is proven. One just needs to provide us with that data or titles of where to get it and we can clear the issue right up.

Here are some articles I have that look at garlic. If anyone wants more, I have more titles. Not sure if that helps or not. Evidently, I've been looking actively for the research to support it causes harms in supplemental doses and have not found it. This is all I come across... this and studies about replacing large amounts of fish oil with terrestrial oils, but that's a different topic and one can't be used to support the other. Especially when there are studies that have looked specifically at supplemental, like below. If I can find support for all the pro arguments, where are the cons?

"Militz, T., Southgate, P., Carton, A., & Hutson, K. (2014). Efficacy of garlic ( A llium sativum ) extract applied as a therapeutic immersion treatment for N eobenedenia sp. management in aquaculture. Journal of Fish Diseases, 37(5), 451-461."

"Kumar, P., Prasad, Y., Patra, A., Ranjan, R., Swarup, D., Patra, R., & Pal, S. (2009). Ascorbic acid, garlic extract and taurine alleviate cadmium-induced oxidative stress in freshwater catfish ( Clarias batrachus ). Science of the Total Environment, 407(18), 5024-5030."

"Mohebbi, A., Nematollahi, A., Dorcheh, E., & Asad, F. (2012). Influence of dietary garlic ( A llium sativum ) on the antioxidative status of rainbow trout ( O ncorhynchus mykiss ). Aquaculture Research, 43(8), 1184-1193."

"Nya, E., & Austin, B. (2009). Use of garlic, Allium sativum , to control Aeromonas hydrophila infection in rainbow trout, Oncorhynchus mykiss (Walbaum). Journal of Fish Diseases, 32(11),"

"Nya, E., Dawood, Z., & Austin, B. (2010). The garlic component, allicin, prevents disease caused by Aeromonas hydrophila in rainbow trout, Oncorhynchus mykiss (Walbaum). Journal of Fish Diseases, 33(4),"

"Guo, J., Kuo, C., Hong, J., Chou, R., Lee, Y., & Chen, T. (2015). The effects of garlic-supplemented diets on antibacterial activities against Photobacterium damselae subsp. piscicida and Streptococcus iniae and on growth in Cobia, Rachycentron canadum. Aquaculture, 435, 111-115."

 

[laga77]

This is all I come across... this and studies about replacing large amounts of fish oil with terrestrial oils, but that's a different topic and one can't be used to support the other. b

And yet you list studies on freshwater fish instead of reef fish. Catfish and trout live in lakes not SW. If there was a financial incentive to show how garlic negatively effects SW fish there would have been some. Obliviously there isn't. Most people just go by the studies that have already been done, which you do not want to accept. Therefore we can only go by what people who work in the field say.

 

[Lionfish Lair]

Saltwater and freshwater fish are not completely different beasts. Vitamins/minerals/etc affect them similarly... but as I said, I have more than just those above, but it takes a lot of work to list them. The O. mykiss are anadromous fish which means they spend most of their life in marine water and hit the fresh to spawn. Just remember data you have quoted before to support the idea that garlic was bad was pretty much all about Salmon. So, in that same light, the articles I have listed above are just as apropo in supporting the idea that garlic may be good. But anyways, some specific to marine environments are....

Guo, J., Kuo, C., Chuang, Y., Hong, J., Chou, R., & Chen, T. (2012). The effects of garlic-supplemented diets on antibacterial activity against Streptococcus iniae and on growth in orange-spotted grouper, Epinephelus coioides. Aquaculture, 364, 33-38.

Lee, J., & Gao, Y. (2012). Review of the Application of Garlic, Allium sativum , in Aquaculture. Journal of the World Aquaculture Society, 43(4),

Militz, T., Southgate, P., Carton, A., & Hutson, K. (2014). Efficacy of garlic ( A llium sativum ) extract applied as a therapeutic immersion treatment for N eobenedenia sp. management in aquaculture. Journal of Fish Diseases, 37(5), 451-461.

Guo, J., Kuo, C., Hong, J., Chou, R., Lee, Y., & Chen, T. (2015). The effects of garlic-supplemented diets on antibacterial activities against Photobacterium damselae subsp. piscicida and Streptococcus iniae and on growth in Cobia, Rachycentron canadum. Aquaculture, 435, 111-115.

Talpur, A., & Ikhwanuddin, M. (2012). Dietary effects of garlic ( Allium sativum ) on haemato-immunological parameters, survival, growth, and disease resistance against Vibrio harveyi infection in Asian sea bass, Lates calcarifer (Bloch). Aquaculture, 364, 6-12.

Colorni, A., Avtalion, R., Knibb, W., Berger, E., Colorni, B., & Timan, B. (1998). Histopathology of sea bass ( Dicentrarchus labrax ) experimentally infected with Mycobacterium marinum and treated with streptomycin and garlic ( Allium sativum ) extract. Aquaculture, 160(1), 1-17.

ROTH, M., RICHARDS, R., & SOMMERVILLE, C. (1993). Current practices in the chemotherapeutic control of sea lice infestations in aquaculture: a review. Journal of Fish Diseases, 16(1),

Madsen, H., Buchmann, K., & Mellergaard, S. (2000). Treatment of trichodiniasis in eel ( Anguilla anguilla ) reared in recirculation systems in Denmark: alternatives to formaldehyde. Aquaculture, 186(3), 221-231.

Ringø, E., Sperstad, S., Myklebust, R., Mayhew, T., & Olsen, R. (2006). The effect of dietary insulin on aerobic bacteria associated with hindgut of Arctic charr ( Salvelinus alpinus L.). Aquaculture Research, 37(9),

El-Dakar, A., Shalaby, S., & Saoud, I. (2007). Assessing the use of a dietary probiotic/prebiotic as an enhancer of spinefoot rabbitfish Siganus rivulatus survival and growth. Aquaculture Nutrition, 13(6), (there's allicin in the product tested Biogen and the article talks about allicin)

So, we're saying the reason why there are no studies showing that supplementing garlic causes liver and heart lesions is because the studies weren't done due to financial feasibility? The thing is, people ARE saying studies were done. Those are the articles I'm looking for. People keep citing they have proof, yet none has been presented.... none that is applicable anyways. But that's not even the way science works. You can't say garlic causes liver damage and my proof is there are no studies to support that it doesn't.... especially when there are studies to say otherwise.

How I feel about garlic is like that Zinc nasal spray they say helps with the cold... Zicam. I'm sure there's research that supports that it helps with a cold (legally there has to be), but the effects are so minimal they are never truly felt. Garlic does show it's positive in certain situations, but it's not enough to warrant using it. Not all studies said it helped, but I couldn't find any that said it harmed the fish.

 

[Lionfish Lair]

Please others don't be swayed from participating in the conversation. This is the only way we can work through things, is to discuss them. I can't see your side or hear your concerns if you're not sharing.

 

[Rybren]

Here's a really good read on the subject...

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2352039

 

[Lionfish Lair]

Yes, I've read that one before. I thank you for joining in, seriously. The articles in that thread doesn't support the topic. May I quote myself? I hate doing that, but it's a lot to re-type. This is what I said before about some of the points presented in that thread....




"A lot of the arguments presented on reefcentral in that thread are about total/ high percentage replacement with garlic. The articles they use for reference are not about supplementation.

I do not supplement with garlic, so I'm not trying to prove one way or the other. I'm looking at this from a research standpoint and the research isn't there to support the garlic supplementation damages the liver.

Let's go over the 5 references the Reef Central guy is using to say garlic supplementation is bad in point one. In a few instances he gives incomplete citations, so I have fixed those in in bold under how he lists them, so you can go look them up if you choose. Otherwise they can be hard to locate.




RC Guy's Reference # 1:

AH, Sargent JR, Thompson KD, (1993) Terrestrial and fish oils affect phospholipid fatty acid composition, development of cardiac lesions, phospholipase activity and eicosanoid production in Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar). Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids. 49(3):665-73

CORRECTED CITATION:
J.G. Bell, J.R. Dick, A.H. McVicar,, J.R. Sargent, K.D. Thompson. Dietary sunflower, linseed and fish oils affect phospholipid fatty acid composition, development of cardiac lesions, phospholipase activity and eicosanoid production in Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar). Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids. 49(3):665-73

This reference is about replacing 100% of the fish oil with Sunflower oil and linseed oil.


RC Guy's Reference # 2:

AH, Park MT, Sargent JR.(1991)High dietary linoleic acid affects the fatty acid compositions of individual phospholipids from tissues of Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar): association with stress susceptibility and cardiac lesion. J Nutr. 121(8):1163-72

This reference is about replacing 100% of the fish oil with sunflower oil.



RC Guy's Reference # 3:

J. Gordon Bell2, John McEvoy3, Douglas R. Tocher, Fiona McGhee, Patrick J. Campbell* and John R. Sargent 2004.

Replacement of Fish Oil with Rapeseed Oil in Diets of Atlantic Salmon (Salmo salar) Affects Tissue Lipid Compositions and Hepatocyte Fatty Acid Metabolism

The American Society for Nutritional Sciences

CORRECTED CITATION: Bell, J. Gordon, John McEvoy, Douglas R. Tocher, Fiona McGhee, Patrick J. Campbell, and John R. Sargent. "Replacement of Fish Oil with Rapeseed Oil in Diets of Atlantic Salmon (Salmo salar) Affects Tissue Lipid Compositions and Hepatocyte Fatty Acid Metabolism." The Journal of Nutrition 131.5 (2001)1535.

It’s about replacing FO with different amounts of Rapeseed oil. I’m going to post a little image of the abstract instead of typing it all. Note the last line. The article goes on to say there were some notable changes in fat amounts found in the muscle when the amount of substitution of Rapeseed was greater than 50%.

RC Guy's Reference # 4:

J.G. Bell1, D.R. Tocher1, B.M. Farndale1, A.H. McVicar2 and J.R. Sargent1 1999

Effects of essential fatty acid-deficient diets on growth, mortality, tissue histopathology and fatty acid compositions in juvenile turbot (Scophthalmus maximus) Journal Fish Physiology and Biochemistry 1573-5168 Volume 20, Number 3 p263-277

It's about replacing FO with 100% Linseed oil and Olive Oil



RC Guy's Reference # 5:

SL Seierstad, TT Poppe, EO Koppang, A Svindland, G 2005

Influence of dietary lipid composition on cardiac pathology in farmed Atlantic salmon, Salmo salar L

Journal of Fish Diseases.

CORRECTED CITTION: Seierstad, S., Poppe, T., Koppang, E., Svindland, A., Rosenlund, G., Frøyland, L., & Larsen, S. (2005). Influence of dietary lipid composition on cardiac pathology in farmed Atlantic salmon, Salmo salar L.. Journal of Fish Diseases, 28(11)

This study was about replacing fish oil with 100% Rapeseed Oil and 50% Rapeseed Oil

As you can see... these aren't even about garlic and they are not about supplementation. That's not even enough positively correlating material to support anything about terrestrial oil supplementation, let alone specifically garlic."

 

[Rybren]

Hey, since when are we supposed to check the references to see if they are relevant?

I do recall seeing a journal article a number of years ago relating to garlic causing liver damage in marine fish, but I'll be darned if I can find it. It is also quite possible that I am having (yet another) senior moment.

I will keep searching.

 

[Lionfish Lair]

I do recall seeing a journal article a number of years ago relating to garlic causing liver damage in marine fish, but I'll be darned if I can find it. It is also quite possible that I am having (yet another) senior moment.

I will keep searching.

Please do keep me in mind. I honestly appreciate it.

 

[ReeferMadnessfragandco]

I saw someone on youtube using a garlic additive to their food.

Whats up with that? Why?

For picky fish... and is suppose too help with ich/stress if which occurs! And it just makes the fish like it that much more!

 

[BryanD]

http://www.scientificwebjournals.com/JAEFR/Vol2/issue3/JAEFR16015.pdf. Real scientific journal.

Now I've never tried to cure ich with it, but I have had algae-eating fish that either wouldn't initially eat, or stopped eating foods they've been eating for awhile, start eating again when I used Ocean Nutrition's Seaweed Select with Garlic. After awhile I attempt to go back to what I was feeding, mostly because of the smell, so I don't feed it exclusively. But its in my toolbox for hard to feed or off their feed algae eating reef fish. So to me, I have enough personal empirical evidence to use it as an appetite enhancer.

 

[BigJohnny]

OK so what I gather, no proof it's beneficial...

Not only is there no proof it is beneficial, there have been some studies that seem to indicate liver damage over time. There is definitely anecdotal evidence that it entices fish to eat, but I would never use it. LRS foods used to contain it but it was removed by the request of the public aquariums/universities/labs/breeding facilities they supply. If that is not a big enough statement to not use it, I don't know what is.

 

[Left Coast DJ]

Is it OK to feed mysis shrimp thawed in Seachem Garlic Guard to LPS corals?

 

[BryanD]

Not only is there no proof it is beneficial, there have been some studies that seem to indicate liver damage over time. There is definitely anecdotal evidence that it entices fish to eat, but I would never use it. LRS foods used to contain it but it was removed by the request of the public aquariums/universities/labs/breeding facilities they supply. If that is not a big enough statement to not use it, I don't know what is.

Nothing "anecdotal" about it, when you have a yellow tang and a lawnmower blenny who haven't eaten in 7 days, their stomachs are razor thin, and you put garlic-infused algae in after they've refused to eat the two types of algae they have been eating the last 5+ years, and they immediately start eating .... I'm a research scientist, this isn't "published paper" worthy, but I'm going to say this is why they started eating again. My tang is over 10 years old, has eaten this type of algae on and off its whole life, and never shown any signs (not that I know what they would be, but ...) of liver damage. If someone out there is reading this, and your algae-eating fish has stopped eating, buy some. There is a chance it will save your fishes life.

 

[BigJohnny]

Nothing "anecdotal" about it, when you have a yellow tang and a lawnmower blenny who haven't eaten in 7 days, their stomachs are razor thin, and you put garlic-infused algae in after they've refused to eat the two types of algae they have been eating the last 5+ years, and they immediately start eating .... I'm a research scientist, this isn't "published paper" worthy, but I'm going to say this is why they started eating again. My tang is over 10 years old, has eaten this type of algae on and off its whole life, and never shown any signs (not that I know what they would be, but ...) of liver damage. If someone out there is reading this, and your algae-eating fish has stopped eating, buy some. There is a chance it will save your fishes life.

What you just described is anecdotal evidence........

 

[Celestion]

Gerlic like most fish food verys widely in quality, In general fish love Occasional Garlic , massive web treads posted about it for years and all benefits fish were receiving , then story's of idiots overdosing garlic to fish started to arrived , happy sat everyone