GHL Doser 2.1 with Director.....Doser Fried?

[lexinverts]

Sure improvement is always an option, but at what cost. I am not willing to pay a premium for 100% waterproving an electical device because some people don't understand the risk involved when mixing water and electricity.
Neptune isn't waterproofing the Apex because somebody might drop it in his sump..... unplugged. I am certain though they issue warnings in the manual about handling the Apex around water unplugged.

Dropping something in the sump is not an accurate comparison to this problem.

I'm not aware of any of the other auto testers (Alkatronic, KH Guardian, Trident) having a design that allows for leaking out of the main box to occur so easily. We are supposed to take this probe out and calibrate it regularly, and each time there is a risk that it will not seal up properly and leak saltwater on the rest of our GHL electronics.

As we all know, all seals eventually fail. With this design, as soon as the seal fails, it has a good chance of destroying the rest of your GHL electronics... Not a good design.

 

[Mortie31]

I'm not aware of any of the other auto testers (Alkatronic, KH Guardian, Trident) having a design that allows for leaking out of the main box to occur so easily. We are supposed to take this probe out and calibrate it regularly, and each time there is a risk that it will not seal up properly and leak saltwater on the rest of our GHL electronics.

It doesn’t leak if it’s done properly, you can’t blame a manufacturer because of someone not fitting something together properly, its not difficult... this world of not personally being responsible for anything is crazy... I am by no means saying GHL are perfect and I have had discussions with them myself over customer service...

As we all know, all seals eventually fail. With this design, as soon as the seal fails, it has a good chance of destroying the rest of your GHL electronics... Not a good design.

how many seals have failed? How long should a seal last? If any damage is seen on any seal any sensible person would replace them... and we choose how and where we place our electrical devices, not the manufacturer? Your simply making up a hypothetical failure as an excuse for poor personal maintenance and layout design.

 

[lexinverts]

It doesn’t leak if it’s done properly, you can’t blame a manufacturer because of someone not fitting something together properly, its not difficult... this world of not personally being responsible for anything is crazy... I am by no means saying GHL are perfect and I have had discussions with them myself over customer service...

Whatever, dude. I remember some fairly shrill posts from you a few years ago because of some bubbles in your reagent lines.

how many seals have failed? How long should a seal last? If any damage is seen on any seal any sensible person would replace them... and we choose how and where we place our electrical devices, not the manufacturer? Your simply making up a hypothetical failure as an excuse for poor personal maintenance and layout design.

I don't know how long a seal should last. But I do know that if one fails, I don't want it to result in me frying my electrical equipment.

Thanks to seeing this thread, I went out and purchased a tray for my KHD. Now I have it sitting in a cafeteria tray that is protecting all of my GHL dosing pumps in a case of a leak. If and when my probe seal starts to leak, hopefully this will help me avoid the problem encountered by the OP. Again, that I have to take these preventative measures seems silly when none of the other devices on the market have this issue.

 

[blfuller123]

3. We sold meanwhile a high 4 digit number of KHD all over the world. Wouldn't there be a huge ****storm if there was a general design flaw? I admit that this problem - a leaking sensor due to bad tightening of the probe-holding nut - occured now a few times. But these case are still in the per mil range! I know that any case is one unhappy customer and one too much, but I can't see here any options for improvement on our side.

If its such a low rate of problem, why not just replace this one unit? Would seem like a better decision then a thread like this. The thread might of gone a completely direction like "GHL really took care of me when I had a problem".

 

[Mortie31]

I remember some fairly shrill posts from you a few years ago because of some bubbles in your reagent lines.

yes there were, several posts and I did state I’d had discussions with them in my post above, but that was a reagent issue, not fitting a probe incorrectly. As you said that was a few years ago and my seals are still fine! ive never replaced them, I just check the grommet and clean it and wipe the holder teeth and the probe clean, every month when I calibrate it... replace it carefully, then run a test immediately.... no leaks no issue... I think they tray is sensible and belts and braces

 

[Gondore]

There are several issues at play here that I think are being overlooked:

1. GHL says that stacking the devices is a viable setup. There are many pics around from GHL with the KH Director stacked on top of the Doser 2.1.
2. There is ZERO way to test if the PH port on the KH Director is going to leak without first putting water through it
3. GHL's very own videos on how to set up the KH Director mention NOTHING about using a tool to tighten the PH screw...so why would this be your go-to option as over tightening would seem like it could cause it to bust.
4. The one I feel is the largest issue that everyone on this thread continues to overlook is how easily the Doser 2.1 leaks from the top right-hand side. This is the EXACT same side that the Director's PH port is on. Even the smallest amounts of water that runs down onto the top of the Doser 2.1 in this location stands a VERY high chance of frying the unit.
5. GHL simple refuses to fix this issue because it's easier to make the customer pay for their poor design, instead of using a sealant and fixing it.
6. At the very least, tell people to NEVER stack the KH Director (or probably the ION in the future) on top of anything that can't stand to get some water on it. Instead they show stacking it in the precise location that will ruin your Doser if the PH probe leaks...and believe me it will if you calibrate it every 2-4 weeks as they suggest.

 

[Mortie31]

and believe me it will if you calibrate it every 2-4 weeks as they suggest.

I’ve had mine 2 years, calibrate it monthly and have never had a leak. I also stack it on top of my Doser, I’m just careful about cleaning the probe and putting it back in carefully and properly...

 

[Mortie31]

The one I feel is the largest issue that everyone on this thread continues to overlook is how easily the Doser 2.1 leaks from the top right-hand side.

This is the most non sensual statement I’ve read in awhile...Did you expect your dose to be waterproof?? Can you pour water over an apex or any other electrical equipment that isn’t specifically sold to be waterproof... I stack mine as I’m careful, if I wasn’t I’d place side by side... it’s common sense really... there is inherent risk anytime water and electrical components are in close proximity... can we blame a manufacturer every time something gets wet... I still see loads of pictures of aquarium cabinets rammed full of dosers and power bricks and god knows what other electrical devices, all against the manufacturers instructions... do we blame the manufacturer here as well...

 

[Gondore]

This is the most non sensual statement I’ve read in awhile...Did you expect your dose to be waterproof?? Can you pour water over an apex or any other electrical equipment that isn’t specifically sold to be waterproof... I stack mine as I’m careful, if I wasn’t I’d place side by side... it’s common sense really... there is inherent risk anytime water and electrical components are in close proximity... can we blame a manufacturer every time something gets wet... I still see loads of pictures of aquarium cabinets rammed full of dosers and power bricks and god knows what other electrical devices, all against the manufacturers instructions... do we blame the manufacturer here as well...

All I have to say is that the setup was completed to the exact specifications laid out in GHLs movies and the device is now fried... No need to say anymore.

I just ordered $1,800 of GHL equipment and I am returning it all. The only reason I am even spending anymore time on this thread it to try and save some other reefer from having to go through the same problems. GHL has already said themselves that this has happened numerous times, yet you try to paint me out as some idiot who doesn't know what I am doing. I have been in the reefing hobby 10 plus years and have had experience with many many reef product vendors. GHL has been the worst to date.

If you choose to spend your money with GHL that is totally up to you. My only purpose to this thread is to educate refeers to the issues that exist. I wish that I would have read this myself before spending $1,800.

 

[robbyg]

I think both sides have very valid arguments.
GHL has clearly stated that this thing must be tightened properly and that it has the potential to leak.
So yes if you do not tighten it then you really cannot blame them.
On the flip side I think it's Naive to think that just tightening it properly makes the system safe. The dosing pumps have hoses that will fail and when those do you may end up with the same problem. The seal around the probe will get old and fail. The hoses inside the Kh Director may fail. The list is pretty long of the ways you could possibly have a water mishap. I honestly think that seals inserted in the aluminum channels of the case could eliminated this problem.

 

[robbyg]

All I have to say is that the setup was completed to the exact specifications laid out in GHLs movies and the device is now fried... No need to say anymore.

I just ordered $1,800 of GHL equipment and I am returning it all. The only reason I am even spending anymore time on this thread it to try and save some other reefer from having to go through the same problems. GHL has already said themselves that this has happened numerous times, yet you try to paint me out as some idiot who doesn't know what I am doing. I have been in the reefing hobby 10 plus years and have had experience with many many reef product vendors. GHL has been the worst to date.

If you choose to spend your money with GHL that is totally up to you. My only purpose to this thread is to educate refeers to the issues that exist. I wish that I would have read this myself before spending $1,800.

GHL is going to refund you your money on the KH director and other products ???

 

[Mortie31]

All I have to say is that the setup was completed to the exact specifications laid out in GHLs movies and the device is now fried... No need to say anymore.

Except that YOU didn’t fit and tighten the probe correctly and check for any leaks!! I do understand your frustration at a new bit of kit getting fried, but there are 1000s of these in use and have been for a couple of years that aren’t fried...

 

[Gondore]

GHL is going to refund you your money on the KH director and other products ???

No, GHL is not doing anything but offering to repair the unit for $110. The ION was on pre-order, which I am canceling, the Director I will have to sell used, the Slave doser is still new in the box so I am returning it to the shop I purchased it from. I am sending the Master doser back to GHL and will then have to sell it. I am assuming I will up end up being out $300 and a lot of time and frustration.

 

[Gondore]

Except that YOU didn’t fit and tighten the probe correctly and check for any leaks!! I do understand your frustration at a new bit of kit getting fried, but there are 1000s of these in use and have been for a couple of years that aren’t fried...

Alright, I want to understand exactly what you mean when you say I didn't check for leaks. I inserted the probe and tightened everything down and then ran a test exactly as was stated in the video. The probe slot was leaking at a rate of about 1 drop of water per 30 seconds. I kept wiping up the small amount of water that was coming out until the test was completed. I then tightened the probe with a tool and ran it the second time.... Still leaking at a similar rate. I was wiping up the excess water it it was literally slowly, slowly dripping out. At this point I pulled the probe out to reseat it and that is when the doser fried. Please educate me on how I failed to leak test this?

 

[Mortie31]

On the flip side I think it's Naive to think that just tightening it properly makes the system safe. The dosing pump has hoses that will fail and when those do you may end up with the same problem. The seal around the probe will get old and fail. The hoses inside the Kh Director may fail.

Alright, I want to understand exactly what you mean when you say I didn't check for leaks. I inserted the probe and tightened everything down and then ran a test exactly as was stated in the video. The probe slot was leaking at a rate of about 1 drop of water per 30 seconds. I kept wiping up the small amount of water that was coming out until the test was completed. I then tightened the probe with a tool and ran it the second time.... Still leaking at a similar rate. I was wiping up the excess water it literally slowly, slowly dripping out. At this point I pulled the probe out to reseat it and that is when the doser fried. Please educate me on how I failed to leak test this?

Why didn’t you cancel the test as soon as you saw it dripping, then reseat they probe, tighten and try again? And again if necessary? I don’t understand how if it was dripping at one drip/ 30 seconds and you were mopping it and constantly watching it and yet enough still leaked despite you doing and still managed to get into the Doser... it doesn’t add up... I’m the first to berate manufacturers over poor products and have had lots of run ins with them over the years, including GHL, but something here doesn’t make sense to me...

 

[Gondore]

Why didn’t you cancel the test as soon as you saw it dripping, then reseat they probe, tighten and try again? And again if necessary? I don’t understand how if it was dripping at one drip/ 30 seconds and you were mopping it and constantly watching it and yet enough still leaked despite you doing and still managed to get into the Doser... it doesn’t add up... I’m the first to berate manufacturers over poor products and have had lots of run ins with them over the years, including GHL, but something here doesn’t make sense to me...

I tried to show it in the pictures, but it's very hard to understand without seeing it in person. If you really want to understand what I am talking about take the top off your master doser and push up on the right side where the black piece meets the silver rim of the enclosure. You will see that water can come straight through there and it just so happens when you place the Director on top of the Doser the probe is directly above that location on the doser. I don't know how to actually describe it any better without either you taking yours apart or showing someone in person. All I can say is that it doesn't take much water at all. Also, I didn't cancel the test because I was scared it would screw up the device...having never dealt with the Director before and see how tedious it was to setup, I wanted to follow the movie to the T.

 

[Mortie31]

I tried to show it in the pictures, but it's very hard to understand without seeing it in person. If you really want to understand what I am talking about take the top off your master doser and push up on the right side where the black piece meets the silver rim of the enclosure. You will see that water can come straight through there and it just so happens when you place the Director on top of the Doser the probe is directly above that location on the doser. I don't know how to actually describe it any better without either you taking yours apart or showing someone in person. All I can say is that it doesn't take much water at all. Also, I didn't cancel the test because I was scared it would screw up the device...having never dealt with the Director before and see how tedious it was to setup, I wanted to follow the movie to the T.

Hey look I’m sorry this has happened to you, especially seeing as it’s all brand new, but as I’ve said all manufacturers of all of our non submersible equipment state It is not waterproof, splashproof or humidity proof... which is why I always stress it’s so important to check and double check everything where water and electricity are near each other... I’ve had my various bits of GHL equipment in pieces and yes they simply slot together, certainly not waterproof but I wouldn’t expect anything else, given the description... If you find any waterproof dosers, controllers, power bars etc please let us know as they would be a great help and relieve a lot of stress for us all...

 

[vahegan]

They recommend two options for how to arrange your hardware, one of them is definitely more safe than the other.

This is an ancient thread I am reviving, but still, I can't understand why GHL only recommends placing KH director on top of the doser, or on the side? I have placed the doser on top of KH director, as it seemed most logical placement to me, and the tubes are shortest this way. I am still waiting forthe delivery of my Profuilux controller order, and after reading this thread there is no doubt about its placement: I will only put it on the top of all other GHL units so that in case of leaks or drips saltwater will not be coming into this expensive piece of equipment. Would also make sense to take apart all their units and put a coat of conformal on all the boards...

In regard with the KH director pH probe leak issue: I believe this must be called poor design. Instead of placing the probe horizontally in the chamber, if they inserted it vertically, entering the chamber from the top, there would be no need for tight seals and this would save a lot of headache for KH Director users, to check after every calibration whether the seal is tight enough or whether needs to put vaseline and tighten more, risking to ruin the threads, or otherwise, if the drip from poorly tightened seal would ruin thousands of dollars worth of GHL or non-GHL equipment.

Now, I understand that GHL wanted to house KH director in their standard "GHL box" enclosure, and that is a good thing, but does it justify a poor, potentially leaky design? I don't think so. Perhaps they could still use a shorter version of pH probe and still be able to fit in that case - I know some other manufacturers use a proprietary short probe (and that helps them charge premium for a replacement - not that I am advocate of this).

 

[Josh Kraft]

This is an ancient thread I am reviving, but still, I can't understand why GHL only recommends placing KH director on top of the doser, or on the side? I have placed the doser on top of KH director, as it seemed most logical placement to me, and the tubes are shortest this way. I am still waiting forthe delivery of my Profuilux controller order, and after reading this thread there is no doubt about its placement: I will only put it on the top of all other GHL units so that in case of leaks or drips saltwater will not be coming into this expensive piece of equipment. Would also make sense to take apart all their units and put a coat of conformal on all the boards...

In regard with the KH director pH probe leak issue: I believe this must be called poor design. Instead of placing the probe horizontally in the chamber, if they inserted it vertically, entering the chamber from the top, there would be no need for tight seals and this would save a lot of headache for KH Director users, to check after every calibration whether the seal is tight enough or whether needs to put vaseline and tighten more, risking to ruin the threads, or otherwise, if the drip from poorly tightened seal would ruin thousands of dollars worth of GHL or non-GHL equipment.

Now, I understand that GHL wanted to house KH director in their standard "GHL box" enclosure, and that is a good thing, but does it justify a poor, potentially leaky design? I don't think so. Perhaps they could still use a shorter version of pH probe and still be able to fit in that case - I know some other manufacturers use a proprietary short probe (and that helps them charge premium for a replacement - not that I am advocate of this).

You can put the KHD under the doser if you are worried about leaking ruining equipment.

I'm not sure the reason it is recommended on top, but I verified with Vinny today this is okay.

A vertical probe would not allow for the stacking of the devices.

 

[vahegan]

You can put the KHD under the doser if you are worried about leaking ruining equipment.

I'm not sure the reason it is recommended on top, but I verified with Vinny today this is okay.

A vertical probe would not allow for the stacking of the devices.

Indeed. But you could put the KH director on the top of the stack. Well, there is an issue if you also want an ION Director... I am sure there can be options which are better than a potentially leaky unit - if a leak appears later on and saltwater drips on any mains outlets, that's also a fire hazard...

I am not happy with their doser heads either. Not sure why GHL decided to use the cheapest doser head construction with an otherwise good (and expensive) design, but the rollers move due to the friction with the motor shaft (which is only 2mm in diameter), and are pressed to it by the doser tube. If some grease or dirt accumulates on the rollers, they slip and this affects the accuracy. I was seeing large jumps in my KH values (I measure every 4 hours), to find out later that there was grease on the water sample pump rollers (it came like this from the factory). I had to take apart and clean all pump heads with acetone, to get more consistent readings. Modern pump heads use much reliable construction in terms of conducting motion from the shaft to roller plates (in fact, they encourage to put some grease on the rollers to extend the tube life). I am going to buy a spare doser 2.1 mainboard and experiment whether it will be able to drive Kamoer KCS series doser pumps. If successful, I'll replace all the pumps on my dosers - these are more reliable and most accurate pumps - will have to make a new enclosure, though, as the heads will not fit in the GHL box...