Have anyone experiences with Salifert Phosphate Eliminator

[Lasse]

Salifert have a liquid iron based phosphate eliminator They claim that the flocks will be skimmed out. They also say that it is difficult to measure a drop in the phosphate in the water column because the flocks - before they are catched by the skimmer - will release its phosphorous because of the low pH in the test.

My idea is to inject this product in my return siphon very, very slowly around 0.2 ml/minute. The siphon ends in the same apartment as my skimmer and the skimmer have the same flow as my return (nearly) It will have a contact time of around 2 minutes and will be mixed very well. This will be a type of flow through like it is in many waste water plants. I will use a GHL doser (the new FW let you set an own wanted flow/minute - lesser than the calibrated flow. A GHL magnetic stirrer that will be configured to stirr 2 sec every 30 sec during a dosing event. My turn around is around 15 minutes and the daily dose will be 3 * 5 ml. Late in evening, middle of the night and in the morning. With 0.2 ml/minute a dose event will take 25 minute - nearly two turnarounds.

Please post your experiences but I´m only interested of iron based liquid phosphate binders - not the ones that use lanthanum

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

No one?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've not seen comments on it, but a number of folks dose iron to bind phosphate. GlennF for example.

 

[Lasse]

Update

Salifert says that it is difficult to see decreasing PO4 values in the tank using this method because the bound between iron and PO4 in the flocks will be broken during analyse. The method is build on that the iron (and probably a polymer) will create flocks with PO4 and during a 24 hours interwall - the skimmer will pick up these flocks. I decided to inject the product ner my siphon and adapt the dosing speed to my turnover rate. In my case - turnover is around 15 minutes and I dose with a rate of 0.3 ml/min - it means that the 5 ml (one dosing round) will be mixed in the siphon for 16 minutes. I dose 5 ml at 08:00 and 5 ml at 20:00. Before I start - my PO4 was around 0.36 and now it is around 0.14. This after 4 days dosing. During this time - I had stop my normal iron dosing (as a trace element). I plan to send i an ICP-MS in late March - early April

Each bar is 5 ml during 1006 sec.


For the moment - it seems like it works rather well

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Did a new test today (Hanna LR) and get 0.1 mg/L PO4. I did the test 2 hours after a dose event and before photosynthesis started. One of my concern has been if this product lower the pH. I know from using liquid iron based phosphate precipitators in waste water plants that it affect the pH. However - I can´t see any significant pH drop in my experiment, as a precaution, the dosage of this product is done directly after a dose of Core 7:3a+b(mostly Na2CO3). Blue bars = dose of Core 7:3a+b black bars = dose of Salifert Phosphate Remover (5 ml during around 16 minutes)

Sketch of the setup

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Some may ask how I succeed to dos as low as 0.3 ml/min (in fact - I can go down to 0.1 ml/min if I want). Since a year ago - GHL dosing pumps have had the option to set an own dos/min based on the calibration. However - its first now with the ne FW both for dosers and P4 I have succeeded with this - I have those settings

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

It looks like PO4 stabilize around 0.1 mg/L PO4 (Hanna LR checker)

I´ll test with 3*5 ml salifert phosphate eliminator a day and slower injection 0,2 ml/min. My goal - between 0.05 and 0.1 mg/L. My NO3 is around 1 mg/L Hanna HR NO3

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

PO4 concentrations have risen the last days - around 0.22 mg/L Hanna LR. However I waiting in a new Hanna Marin Master next week. Maybe get better readings after this I do not really trust my present checker.

I have reconstructed how I inject the precipitation agent, Now it is going direct into the siphon

Sincerely Lasse

 

[BeanAnimal]

Thank you for the updates.

 

[Lasse]

Here is my PO4 data for the last week. Its a downgoing trend. I am no a total mate with Hanna Marine Master ULR PO4 yet. It feels method sensitive. I need to standardize my behaviour then I take samples and get better eyes. I bought a adjustable pipette - 2 to 10 ml. I must understand that 10.4 is not equal with 10 ml

The dosing regime for the last week below. I change from twice a day (7.5 ml in the morning and evening) to three times * 5 ml in the night

I still not know my iron concentrations. I will send in an ICP-MS test later on when I come down to around 0.1 mg/L in the morning.

But as I said before - do not trust the actual values of PO4 totally - the trend may be there but I doubt some of the results.

I dose slowly - 0.4 ml/minute . I run my skimmer on 70 % but during night (and dosing) - it runs 100 %

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MBruun]

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

What are the potential downsize of using Salifert Phosphate Eliminator ? apart from an increase of iron in the water.
Do you think Salifert Phosphate Eliminator could be diluted in RO water, and dosed in the skimmer intake ?

Regards
Morten

 

[Lasse]

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

What are the potential downsize of using Salifert Phosphate Eliminator ? apart from an increase of iron in the water.
Do you think Salifert Phosphate Eliminator could be diluted in RO water, and dosed in the skimmer intake ?

Regards
Morten

I do not really know if there is other downsize with the method.

The iron will create flocks with the PO4. I´m not sure if this will happens in the skimmer and if the retention time is enough. However its a good idea and worth to think about for some days. I have my skimmer pump managed by a 1-10 V signal - it means I can vary the intake and the skimming.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

What are the potential downsize of using Salifert Phosphate Eliminator ? apart from an increase of iron in the water.
Do you think Salifert Phosphate Eliminator could be diluted in RO water, and dosed in the skimmer intake ?

Regards
Morten

I'm not sure what form the iron is, but diluting iron supplements can encourage air oxidation when may make then less soluble in the dosing container. That would be my only concern.

 

[Lasse]

I have run this for a while now and it looks like it stabilize itself around 0.2 mg/L PO4. I have change the dose regime to 15 ml every 4 day last weeks - and it still show around 0.2 mg/L - measured with Hanna Marin Master ULR phosphate. salifert state that the way this treatment works is to flock PO4 and make in unviable for biological use. But the measurements methods (acidification) will reactivate bound phosphate too free PO4 (orthophosphate) agin, hence you will still read high PO4 in the water column. This can be true. I have notice that the growth of algae and bacteria on the front glass is not as fast as before. Before - I had to clean every second day - now maybe every 4-5:th day. Here is my dosing schedule and PO4 concentration measured by Hanna ULR method for the last couple of weeks.

It does not look like the measurable PO4 has going down but looking at my front widow - the biological activity has going down. My plan now is to lower the basic PO4 with help of GFO and Al based phosphor binders. When I reach a concentration I want - between 0.06 and 0.1 mg/L - I will stop using binders and see if saliferts phosphate remover can withhold a low concentration


Many people here has stated that small amounts that is changed often is the best strategy, I`ll test that because a large phosphate reactor have not don the job for me. TMC and Aqua Medic has evolved small multi purpose filters with a new design. They consist of an outer body there the pump is attached and an inner body containing the media. When its time to change - you only take up the inner body, rinse it and refill if it is phosphate binders. The one I got was TMC Reef Filter 100 nano. 100 ml media.

​

I mount it in the sump - In run mode below. I use Triton 99 Al based binder and the plan is to awitch between this and GFO

​

Inner body removed - ready to be emptied and refilled

​

To be continued

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Update - change media after 3 days. This time I use GFO (ATI)- It was very easy to change - just up with the inner body. Open - pure the old media out and the new in. Rinse with tap water and back. I will change often now. Every third to fifth day. Lat days measurement and filer events

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Sorry that I have not update this thread for a while. The reason is that I have no single idea whats happen - look at these four graphs

Hanna fosfat = Hanna Marine Master ULR PO4
Fällningsmedel = Salifert Phosphate eliminator
Fosforfällning = Change of media
Hanna Nitrat = Hanna Marine Master NO3 high
Kolkälla = ethanol


1) Phosphate/ dos salifert

2) Phosphate /dos salifert/ change of AL/GFO

3) Phosphate /dos salifert/ change of AL/GFO/ nitrate

4) Phosphate /dos ethanol/ nitrate / major events

The reconstruction seems not to create any problems with nutrients however It seems that things happens after I refill the ethanol 14/3. It was probably diluted wrong - it become too weak. NO3 rise but rise more after the skimmer had overflow around 24/3 and the PO4 start to rise too. I rise the dosing from 23/3 and 31/3 i double the max dose I have run before. Both NO3 and PO4 decline. In the evening 1/4 I refill the ethanol and this time I probably did it with the right concentration - but still had the double "normal" dose. This morning I read 0.84 in PO4. I did one not filtrated test and one filtrated test (0.22 µm) - they show the same. Hence, the rise is probably not caused by bacteria in the water column.

If i have overdosed my reversed DSB - the rise can be caused by activities from hetrothrop bacteria in the bottom of the DSB. I will test to stop the ethanol dosing for some days - I will probably see a rise in NO3 but it will be interesting to see if PO4 decline or not

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Latest results

When i stop the dosing of ethanol - PO4 decrease but NO3 increase (the NO3 increase was expected - not the PO4 decrease) I start dosing again - PO4 stabilize. I change GFO/AL media in the evening of 6/4 - red circle. No iron (salifert) dosing during this time

I will send in an ICP-MS analyze soon

Sincerely Lasse

 

[strich]

Random question: What charting software is that? Are you manually entered the data?

 

[BigMonkeyBrain]

Lasse

Could you explain a "reverse deep sand bed"

Thank You

 

[Lasse]

Random question: What charting software is that? Are you manually entered the data?

Nope - its GHL´s software - the one that´s get so much critic its not 100 % because they have not solved the problem with different axis yet but it is very easy to make charts that you can analyse. The analyse of NO3 and PO4 is manually entered in their logbook

Here is yesterday measurements from Hanna Marin Master entered into the logbook,

With the graph function I can combine both automatically collected data (Sensors and dosing pumps) and also combine them with data from the logbook (manually entered data - red circle)

Lasse

Could you explain a "reverse deep sand bed"

Thank You

This figure shows the principles of my reversed flow Deep Sand Bed

In my case - it is situated in an own compartment in the back of my aquarium . the water above the sand bed is my refugium. You can see pictures from here

Build Thread - Lasses Dream Build

Hi all My name is Lasse Forsberg and I live in small place named Bohus – 20 kilometres north Gothenburg, Sweden. I got my first tank 1961 when I was eleven years old and lived in an inland country town 160 kilometres from Gothenburg – I had it for a couple of years but soon I become a teenager...

www.reef2reef.com

And this show it with the sand in place

Sincerely Lasse