Help Me Understand Why my PO4 and NO3- TOO LOW

[BenitaSolo]

I have two 120g aquariums.

Tank 1- 120 gallon SR120- AIO Innovative Marine.
Age: This tank is 1 year old- 1/2 of the rock and stock is 3.5 years old (from other tank breakdown) and the other 1/2 is one year old.

Issue: I had a dino outbreak in this tank. I was using a regular low range hanna checker and never got a reading so I assumed I was good based on their tolerance and my light filtration. I bought a ULR Tester and discovered I'm sitting at 8ppb or .008ppm

Test Results:
8ppB PO4
.2 Nitrates (started to dose nitrate)
9.4 dkh alk- Is this too high for these low nutrients?

Filtration:
2 felt filter socks that are changed 1.5 to 2 times per week
2 Ghost Protien Skimmers. I would rate these as Avergage
1 Mesh Bag with Carbon

Stock and Feeding: I feed everyday. Each tank is fed 1/2-3/4 of a sheet of nori and a mix of several Rods and Larrys foods. I typically feed 2-3 times between 530pm and 10pm
10" Golden Dwarf Morray- Fed 4-5 days per week
6" Powder Blue Hybrid
3" Yellow Tang
2x Small Skunk Clown
Adult Leopard Wrasse
Various Inverts
2 Anemones that are fed 2x per week.
Corals- I spot feed my corals once per week when I do a water change. It a mixed reef- Large LPS colonies, large toadstool, large GSP rock, a variety of SPS (no acros)

Maintenance-
-Weekly Water Changes 10g-15g (alternates every other week)
-Siphon entire sandbed each change.
-clean skimmer cups
-normal long term maintenance: clean pumps, sumps, equipment, etc

Based on this information can anyone determine why my nutrients are so low?
What can I do to bring them up?
My first thought will be to stop doing water changes but then I'll need to replace trace elements? (I dose calc and alk).

Tank 2: My other 120 has slightly higher levels of NO3 and PO4. 1ppm and 12ppB respectively.
This tank is stocked with slightly larger fish (2 triggers 3.5" and 6", foxface, starry blenny, candy hogfish) and this tank is 2 years old. Maintenance is the same as above.

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

Based on this information can anyone determine why my nutrients are so low?
What can I do to bring them up?
My first thought will be to stop doing water changes but then I'll need to replace trace elements? (I dose calc and alk).

I'm not sure if anyone can say why this is. This is a relatively new "problem" in reefing. The history of the reef keeping hobby has been all about battling nutrients. Perhaps the constant iteration and refinement of equipment has made it too easy to keep nutrients out of the tank. Perhaps the wide-spread use of dead, dry rock has lead to a very barren ecosystem in tanks, and the lack of life causes a lack of dissolved nutrients. Perhaps test kits are just now getting sophisticated enough to attribute tank problems to low nutrients, whether nutrients are the problem or not, whereas before we blamed tank problems on bad husbandry or aquarist skill.

No matter what the cause, the solution is the same. To raise dissolved nutrients, you can either feed more, filter less, or both, or you can add liquid nitrate and phosphate supplements. Or perhaps a combination of all of these approaches.

 

[Johnson556]

Was/Is fighting this same issue with my 180G. Solution, add more fish. So far I've been steady at 2PPM NO3. For PO4 I use the hannah checker which always reads 0.00, but use my glass as phosphate judgement. If I'm having to clean the glass more than 1-2x a week, I assume PO4 is high.

Do monthly water changes at 40G, dose alk/calc/acropower

 

[ihavecrabs]

I would dose a small amount of phosphate or feed a little heavier to get it up slightly. 8ppb phosphorus isn't terrible, when it bottoms out is when I have personally had issues (especially with dinos). I personally use Seachem Flourish and use a very very small amount as it goes a very long way!

I would also minimize the sandbed disturbance. Do a third every week, but not more. Every time you disturb the sandbed you are disturbing the bacteria colonies and inhibiting their ability to do their jobs as effectively. I would imagine other micro fauna would also be impacted by this.

Your second tank (#2) likely has slightly higher phosphate due to the larger, messier fish.

 

[BenitaSolo]

I would dose a small amount of phosphate or feed a little heavier to get it up slightly. 8ppb phosphorus isn't terrible, when it bottoms out is when I have personally had issues (especially with dinos). I personally use Seachem Flourish and use a very very small amount as it goes a very long way!

I would also minimize the sandbed disturbance. Do a third every week, but not more. Every time you disturb the sandbed you are disturbing the bacteria colonies and inhibiting their ability to do their jobs as effectively. I would imagine other micro fauna would also be impacted by this.

Your second tank (#2) likely has slightly higher phosphate due to the larger, messier fish.

To add to the second tank nutrients- This tank has a sump with a LR rubble area. I think there is a decent buildup of detritus and dense bacteria population.
Maybe I'll run the skimmer on a timer and broadcast feed my corals more often.

So I think I have identified the Dino as Amphidinium. A surface dwelling dino. If I were to remove the sand bed, then what?! Would this exacerbate the problem?

 

[mcarroll]

I was using a regular low range hanna checker and never got a reading

Test kits don't lie unless you use them wrong (i.e. fingerprints, expired reagents, etc).

Coral's need >+0.03 ppm for their basic needs. Easily detectable on your old meter.

8ppB PO4
.2 Nitrates (started to dose nitrate)

Don't worry about alk.

Worry about getting phosphates up BEFORE you dose nitrates. Nitrates + no phospahtes = Bleaching

Whereas no nitrates is almost not an issue at all under otherwise normal conditions. (ie no nutrient tweaking) Corals are pretty well adapted to almost-no-nitrates by comparison.

Stock and Feeding

I would spot-feed the moray so he stays full, but feedings can probably be spaced out A LOT more unless he's a baby. (Doesn't sound like it.)

Everythign else should be fine with your feeding routine IMO....maybe the bigger tangs could use more frequent all-day type feedings. Consider keeping noori up all the time at least until your tank has enough nutrients to grow algae.

My first thought will be to stop doing water changes but then I'll need to replace trace elements? (I dose calc and alk).

Water changes don't have much impact. Protein skimming is great aeration.

Consider removing the filter socks and any other mechanical filtration and leaving the sand bed alone during water changes. Should be less of a problem with you stop direct feeding your corals and just let the fish feed them.

You can probably even feed your fish a bit more then as well - maybe consider an auto-feeder for the Tangs while you're out during the day?

You run no GFO, organic carbon or anything like that for "extra filtration"??

My other 120 has slightly higher levels of NO3 and PO4. 1ppm and 12ppB respectively.

I'm guessing this tank is below 0.03 ppm of phosphate as well....but is it a coral tank?

The best short term solution for Tank 1 would be to get a bottle of Nitrates and a bottle of Phosphates and begin dosing. Any bad effect will be halted while you figure our the rest.

 

[ihavecrabs]

#reefsquad any advice for Dino Amphidinium and the removal of the sandbed?

 

[Crabs McJones]

What I did to remove my sand is when I did water changes, I would use my siphon hose to suck out little amounts of sand at a time. You don't want to go in with a cup and scoop the sand out or you risk releasing a bunch of trapped detritus and nutrients into the water. So use a siphon hose and remove little bits at a time is my suggestion

 

[saltyhog]

Your PO4 in tank 1 is 0.02 ppm not 0.008 ppm. The ULR checker checks phosphorus not PO4. That's still a little low but not as bad.

I agree with the use of Sea Chem Flourish and would avoid over feeding. Not sure why but the increased feeding seemed to fuel my dinos and was less effective in raising PO4 . Also agree to start slow. As little as 5cc made a very measurable increase in PO4 in my 160 gallon tank.

 

[BenitaSolo]

Test kits don't lie unless you use them wrong (i.e. fingerprints, expired reagents, etc).

Coral's need >+0.03 ppm for their basic needs. Easily detectable on your old meter.



Don't worry about alk.

Worry about getting phosphates up BEFORE you dose nitrates. Nitrates + no phospahtes = Bleaching

Whereas no nitrates is almost not an issue at all under otherwise normal conditions. (ie no nutrient tweaking) Corals are pretty well adapted to almost-no-nitrates by comparison.



I would spot-feed the moray so he stays full, but feedings can probably be spaced out A LOT more unless he's a baby. (Doesn't sound like it.)

Everythign else should be fine with your feeding routine IMO....maybe the bigger tangs could use more frequent all-day type feedings. Consider keeping noori up all the time at least until your tank has enough nutrients to grow algae.



Water changes don't have much impact. Protein skimming is great aeration.

Consider removing the filter socks and any other mechanical filtration and leaving the sand bed alone during water changes. Should be less of a problem with you stop direct feeding your corals and just let the fish feed them.

You can probably even feed your fish a bit more then as well - maybe consider an auto-feeder for the Tangs while you're out during the day?

You run no GFO, organic carbon or anything like that for "extra filtration"??



I'm guessing this tank is below 0.03 ppm of phosphate as well....but is it a coral tank?

The best short term solution for Tank 1 would be to get a bottle of Nitrates and a bottle of Phosphates and begin dosing. Any bad effect will be halted while you figure our the rest.

I am not very good at breaking the posts up into different quotes so... I'll do my best to reply in order.

I was getting a continuous 0.00 on the test kit. I wanted to know how. Considering the .04 tolerance I went ahead and upgraded. Happy I did!

You don't think that Alk is too high given the low nutrients? I always thought ULN tanks should keep 8ish alk (maybe this isn't a ULN tank )

Ohh I do run carbon. About 1.25 cups every 3 weeks or so (in a media bag)

The corals are responding very well to being fed.
I feed the eel a variety of food several times per week. I'm surprised it just continues to take food! I'm sure it would be fine if I cut a few days out. I think you're right about the nori. I will start to add some in the morning too.
Is there a bottle of Phos you can recommend?
It's just bizarre to me to have this issue. I want to contribute some of the lack of nutrients to the large leather corals I have. Is that possible?

 

[BenitaSolo]

Your PO4 in tank 1 is 0.02 ppm not 0.008 ppm. The ULR checker checks phosphorus not PO4. That's still a little low but not as bad.

I agree with the use of Sea Chem Flourish and would avoid over feeding. Not sure why but the increased feeding seemed to fuel my dinos and was less effective in raising PO4 . Also agree to start slow. As little as 5cc made a very measurable increase in PO4 in my 160 gallon tank.

That's not nearly as bad... I'll get some flourish and raise it slowly. Can you explain this conversion or post a link? I read that it was a simple 1/1000 calculation. I didn't see anything in the literature about the conversion

I googled it... that was easy

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

Ohh I do run carbon. About 1.25 cups every 3 weeks or so (in a media bag)

I think @mcarroll was asking about things that reduce nitrates and phosphates, which would be organic carbon sources like vodka, vinegar, sugar or Red Sea's NoPox. Granular activated carbon (GAC), what you're running, is different and does not reduce nutrients.

 

[BenitaSolo]

I think @mcarroll was asking about things that reduce nitrates and phosphates, which would be organic carbon sources like vodka, vinegar, sugar or Red Sea's NoPox. Granular activated carbon (GAC), what you're running, is different and does not reduce nutrients.

Right! Thank you for clarifying. It's a very simple set-up. Skim, Carbon, Socks, Water Changes, 2 part, food, aminos

 

[saltyhog]

That's not nearly as bad... I'll get some flourish and raise it slowly. Can you explain this conversion or post a link? I read that it was a simple 1/1000 calculation. I didn't see anything in the literature about the conversion

I googled it... that was easy

Oops, sorry!

The conversion I have always used is phosphorus in PPP x 3.0661/1000. Or just multiply by 0.003 would be close enough

 

[SurfLife]

Nitrates + no phospahtes = Bleaching

Interesting bit of information to keep in the mem banks. Never ran into the problem but useful nonetheless. Thanks

 

[SurfLife]

... and the removal of the sandbed?

I literally just finished doing that last week. Tank is 220 about 1.5 years. Had about 1 inch of sand and then another 2 inches or so of crush coral. Had all kinds of pretty colors, purple, pink, green and some browns and blacks. I decided based on a thread here to remove the sand(too fine) and the crushed coral(too large) and replace with about 1/2 - 1" of a finer crushed coral. ALL of my rock is on the bottom glass so no worries about falling rock.
I did not turn off my pumps or gyros. I got a brand new smaller shop vac(maybe 3 gal?). I would put the hose end right on top of area I want to remove. When I was ready my wife would turn on the shop vac and I would start removing the bed. It only takes a few seconds to fill 3 gal with water so we had it timed so that I was removing hose from the tank before that so no chance of anything coming back out of the hose. There was never at anytime a 'cloud' released into the water. Now I test the water. Next, I turn off pumps etc. I would then get my new thoroughly cleaned crush coral and slowly add to the newly cleaned section. Test again.
I would do about 20% of the bed each day. The hardest and most time consuming part was rooting through sand and gravel for my snails etc. About 2 weeks later I have a new sand bed and if anything, things are looking better/healthier. I am sure the 15-20gal water change every day for a few weeks played a small part.
During this work the fish seemed uninterested in anything I was doing, except my Anthias who always runs to hide whenever I put anything other than food in the tank but eventually came back out to supervise. Not a single coral reacted to anything I was doing unless I physically touched them. I was expecting this to be much harder and much more dangerous. I was very surprised at how easy and clean the job was. For me it was worth every bit and the tank looks great.
Now, I am not instructing anyone do what I did. I just wanted to post my experience and if anyone did decide to do this, results could obviously vary. I am also only 1.5 years in. My bed could not have been too toxic compared to older tanks. I am sure someone with a bed that is 5+ years would be at a much higher risk.

 

[BenitaSolo]

I literally just finished doing that last week. Tank is 220 about 1.5 years. Had about 1 inch of sand and then another 2 inches or so of crush coral. Had all kinds of pretty colors, purple, pink, green and some browns and blacks. I decided based on a thread here to remove the sand(too fine) and the crushed coral(too large) and replace with about 1/2 - 1" of a finer crushed coral. ALL of my rock is on the bottom glass so no worries about falling rock.
I did not turn off my pumps or gyros. I got a brand new smaller shop vac(maybe 3 gal?). I would put the hose end right on top of area I want to remove. When I was ready my wife would turn on the shop vac and I would start removing the bed. It only takes a few seconds to fill 3 gal with water so we had it timed so that I was removing hose from the tank before that so no chance of anything coming back out of the hose. There was never at anytime a 'cloud' released into the water. Now I test the water. Next, I turn off pumps etc. I would then get my new thoroughly cleaned crush coral and slowly add to the newly cleaned section. Test again.
I would do about 20% of the bed each day. The hardest and most time consuming part was rooting through sand and gravel for my snails etc. About 2 weeks later I have a new sand bed and if anything, things are looking better/healthier. I am sure the 15-20gal water change every day for a few weeks played a small part.
During this work the fish seemed uninterested in anything I was doing, except my Anthias who always runs to hide whenever I put anything other than food in the tank but eventually came back out to supervise. Not a single coral reacted to anything I was doing unless I physically touched them. I was expecting this to be much harder and much more dangerous. I was very surprised at how easy and clean the job was. For me it was worth every bit and the tank looks great.
Now, I am not instructing anyone do what I did. I just wanted to post my experience and if anyone did decide to do this, results could obviously vary. I am also only 1.5 years in. My bed could not have been too toxic compared to older tanks. I am sure someone with a bed that is 5+ years would be at a much higher risk.

I mentioned that I thoroughly siphon the sand during each water change. I assume the majority of my sand is 'clean'. What was your sand bed husbandry before the removal? What were your basic nutrient levels before you removed the sand bed?
I would say it's a little early to tell the impact removing the sand bed had, especially considering you did 10% water changes everyday for weeks.
I am concerned that the nutrients will be even more difficult to raise without a sand bed. Once I get everything where I want it I would consider removing the bed. Until then I'll keep everything as stable as possible to try to maintain control

 

[mcarroll]

aminos

Amino acids are carbon + nitrogen + trace elements all in one. Definitely lay off of this.

It's just bizarre to me to have this issue. I want to contribute some of the lack of nutrients to the large leather corals I have. Is that possible?

No so bizarre. But very possible! Leathers and anemones have both been noted as being "phosphate pigs"...probably related to their relatively large mass.

Also, healthy tanks use A LOT of phosphorous and nitrogen generally speaking since there's so much life growing and reproducing, photosynthesis, etc....so it "shouldn't" be a surprise.

But it is has been a surprise to a lot of folks (e.g.) over the course of my dino thread....so you're not alone by any stretch of the imagination. (Myself included.)

IMO it's mostly a surprise because of the "info" we've all read over the years that demonize nutrients and/or praise the ideas/tools of ULNS.

ULNS is more a simulation of the open ocean than it is of a natural reef environment IMO.

Yes there are ULNS-ish reefs out there in nature, but just looking at water parameters in these cases and concluding "ultra low nutrients" is a very misleading leap in logic. These are not reefs that are really deprived of phosphorous or nitrogen in a meaningful way. Reefs don't exist where there is no significant nutrient source - dissolved or otherwise.

There are LOTS of high nutrient reefs out there too. They don't often appear in the mind of most hobbyists though.

Excessive bio-media (which will remove nitrogen from the system) is another suspect in dino cases.....on the scene of A LOT of outbreaks if not literally part of the cause. I'd limit bio-media just to the live rock in the tank and nothing else. Keep it to 1 pound per gallon or less too, IMO.

(BTW, this conversion chart for phosphorus to phosphate should have been included with your hanna meter:
https://hannainst.com/resources/aqu...phate-conversion-table--hanna-instruments.pdf)

 

[mcarroll]

Some reading if anyone wants it:

• Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates
• Effect of nitrogen and phosphorus supply on growth, chlorophyll content and tissue composition of the macroalga Chaetomorpha linum (O.F. Mull), Kutz, in a Mediterranean Coastal Lagoon
• Nutrient enrichment on coral reefs: Is it a major cause of coral reef decline?
• Response of heterotrophic bacteria, autotrophic picoplankton and heterotrophic nanoflagellates to re-oligotrophication
• Limited phosphorus availability is the Achilles heel of tropical reef corals in a warming ocean
• Phosphate Excretion by Anemonefish and Uptake by Giant Sea Anemones: Demand Outstrips Supply
• Control of phosphate uptake by zooxanthellae and host cells in the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata
• Tissue and skeletal changes in the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata Esper 1797 under phosphate enrichment
• Is the coral-algae symbiosis really ‘mutually beneficial’ for the partners?

Just a selection of the relevant articles I've collected so far on the topic on my blog under the Nutrients section.

If you don't read anything else, at least read the first and last articles.

 

[NY_Caveman]

Nitrates + no phospahtes = Bleaching

Pardon my hijack...

if
Nitrates + no phospahtes = Bleaching

what does
no Nitrate + Phosphate = ?

Nuisance algae?

Thanks