Help moving forward with dino battle

[leononfire]

Hello reefers,
I’ve been battling dinos for the past few months (stayed in denial and didnt confirm until about a month ago) and I think I’m at a crossroads.

When I first confirmed that I had dinos (likely large cell amphidium), I immediately began treating. I already had a uv filter due to cloudy water so I kept using that, and after going to my LFS I decided to go nuclear and apply dinox due to the stubborn nature of LCA and honestly being tired of back-to-back problems with my reef tank. I followed the instructions and stopped water changes, turning off the filter, and reducing the light cycle. I was really happy to see that the dinos largely vanished from view after a few treatments and could actually see the sand again!

Unfortunately, about 2.5 weeks in the treatment seemed to plateau as there was still some light brown dots in the back of the tank. Moreover, what I presume the lack of light and presence of dinox in the tank was having a negative impact on the fish and coral. My torch stopped opening, and I eventually lost my Yellow Watchman Goby and Cleaner Shrimp (unsure exactly why but I presume due to the aggressive treatment). After my first fish died I decided to stop dosing DinoX and increase the light cycle. This seems to have prompted a resurgence of the dinos as they’ve begun taking over the sandbed (see attached picture). Although my nitrates and phosphates are decent/high (23.5 ppm and 0.31 ppm, respectively), I think the dinox and earlier application of chemiclean elimanated the competition as I can’t see any algae growth.

With the overexplained backstory out of the way, here is my dilemma:

My plan since I started the battle was to introduce some competition after the treatment to prevent a resurgence. I bought some copepods and live phyto from Algaebarn so I can introduce and sustain both lifeforms in my tank. Additionally, I bought the LSA, Wondermud, and coralline algae booster from IPSA to add more biodiversity. I just got the live phyto and pods today and am expecting the IPSA stuff next week.

I’m afraid that I already missed the window as the dinos are already spreading and the earliest I’ll be able to add some competition is next week.

My question is essentially what I should do now. From my perspective, the two options are:

1. Do a water change (since it’s been a week since the last dinox application) and wait until next week to add the pods, IPSA materials, and start dosing phyto.
Pros: likely best option to preserve fish/coral safety
Cons: risk dinos spreading to the point where competitors can’t gain a foothold and essentially throw the $200 on IPSA/Algaebarn down the drain

2. Restart the dinox regiment to beat back the dinos and apply biological treatments after the second treatment phase.
Pros: will likely beat back dinos and give competitors a chance to establish themselves
Cons: can hurt/stress fish and corals and potentially lead to more losses. Moreover, can hurt the competitors and kill them off upon introduction to system which would also lead to a loss of the $200 invested

I’m pretty demoralized by this fight and by losing 2 inhabitants and just don’t know how to proceed. If anyone can provide insight on which method would be best, or if there’s a third option I’m missing, I would be eternally grateful.

Some other (sorta related) questions:
1. How long can copepods survive in an algaebarn jar (in case I wait to add them)?
2. Can copepods survive in dinox (in case I add them now)?
3. Can copepods eat dead phyto (temporarily while I wait for the live culture to mature)?
4. What happens if I add competitors while DinoX is in the tank?

Lastly, my params AO March 8th (I’m planning to retest tonight):
pH: 8.2
Alk: 8.4 dKH
Ca: 466 ppm
Phos: 0.31 ppm
Nitrate: 23.5 ppm

 

[brandon429]

how many gallons is that tank= crucial for a strategic answer matched to you, vs a blanket answer people would just be guessing about

small to medium sized tanks have a dinos option that large tanks don't have, and it's not mentioned above.

 

[leononfire]

how many gallons is that tank= crucial for a strategic answer matched to you, vs a blanket answer people would just be guessing about

small to medium sized tanks have a dinos option that large tanks don't have, and it's not mentioned above.

I have a 40 gal breeder

 

[brandon429]

I must admit your invasion isn't bad compared to tanks that post total wreckage pics

Are you considering acting early on it before it gets bad/ what's prompting action it looks great above

 

[dwest]

Amphidinium Dinoflagellate Treatment Methods

This thread is a spin-off from the @mcarroll very successful Dino thread The purpose is to discuss methods for removal and fighting against a particular strain of dinoflagellate - Large Cell Amphidinium. It seems to make up about a third of the cases of dinos. The reason this strain gets its...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[brandon429]

I think that thread has 75% wrecked tanks in the pages. Too many gha and cyano counter invasions. I'd do that only as a last resort, since we don't want that outcome in most systems. As a last resort before giving up it's the best final chance.

 

[brandon429]

That method does not distinguish between size of tank/ treats all reefs the same way / this causes all the tradeoff invasions. There's a way to clean out a nano with far better cure rates in the work thread.

 

[ggNoRe]

Based on my experience I doubt DinoX is the reason your fish died. Also, my guess is your corals are stressed more so from the changes your system is going through rather than solely DInoX. Also, DinoX should not negatively effect copepods. All of that being said I am still not a fan of DInoX because, as you have experienced, it is usually just a temporary solution. Also, in my experience it is not uncommon for cyano to outbreak afterwards.

Unfortunately LCA can be incredibly hard to get rid of. I myself have been dealing with it off and on for 2 years now. Here are things that seem to have helped. At night turkey basting them into the water column so they can be UV sterilized and skimmed. Phytoplankon. Higher Nutrients. Microbacter7.

None of these have been magic solutions and seemed to slowly help over time. Also they do also come with their own consequences. The higher nutrients and phyto tend to create a green hair algae bloom in my system. Also, the Microbacter7 no one seems to really know exactly what is in it and what it does. My 2 cents.

Best of luck.

 

[leononfire]

I must admit your invasion isn't bad compared to tanks that post total wreckage pics

Are you considering acting early on it before it gets bad/ what's prompting action it looks great above

That picture was post dinox treatment. Almost all of that is new growth after I stopped dosing dinox

 

[leononfire]

Based on my experience I doubt DinoX is the reason your fish died. Also, my guess is your corals are stressed more so from the changes your system is going through rather than solely DInoX. Also, DinoX should not negatively effect copepods. All of that being said I am still not a fan of DInoX because, as you have experienced, it is usually just a temporary solution. Also, in my experience it is not uncommon for cyano to outbreak afterwards.

Unfortunately LCA can be incredibly hard to get rid of. I myself have been dealing with it off and on for 2 years now. Here are things that seem to have helped. At night turkey basting them into the water column so they can be UV sterilized and skimmed. Phytoplankon. Higher Nutrients. Microbacter7.

None of these have been magic solutions and seemed to slowly help over time. Also they do also come with their own consequences. The higher nutrients and phyto tend to create a green hair algae bloom in my system. Also, the Microbacter7 no one seems to really know exactly what is in it and what it does. My 2 cents.

Best of luck.

Thanks for the advice and for sharing your own experiences. I guess Ill just dose pods and hope the dinos dont regain too much ground by the time I start dosing phyto and adding the wondermud…

 

[leononfire]

That method does not distinguish between size of tank/ treats all reefs the same way / this causes all the tradeoff invasions. There's a way to clean out a nano with far better cure rates in the work thread.

Not sure if my tank’s too big but what is the method you’re referring to?

 

[brandon429]

Algae Identification

Any opinions on what type of algae this is growing on my rocks and sand bed?

www.reef2reef.com

we usually get far worse tests there but the key really is acting early. A clean out like that doesn’t make dinos go away forever, you still have to enact changes that stop them, something that’s a true change from the current stasis in your tank that caused them

what our method does well is remove all the mass. The other options leave the mass in your tank vs remove it, you treat the mass, it dies, then gha or cyano capitalize on the dead mass.

the best thing you could do would be like Danno did on the last page: a full rip clean then add the pods at the end, in the clean condition, where they function as preventative and not remover

the rip clean is the remover

other things I would do if you’re serious about battle:

get a turbo twist up sterilizer and install after the rip clean, a few days after pods are added (they’ll be plenty in the rocks crawling around the uv won’t zap them all)

and lower your light intensity, change the power levels down a bit from where they are now, and hold for eight weeks.

notice in the thread each tank presents for different reasons, some are gha tanks some are dinos of other strains anchored to the rocks….all jobs are ran the exact same way. We rinse the sand in such a way as to earn perfectly clean tanks overnite, the rocks are rinsed a special way differently than the sand, repeated just the same for each job. The final result are the clean pics on file

all those methods above are completely safe and can’t counter invade your tank. After a rip clean plus the stasis changes, if dinos still come back, then as a last resort I’d begin the nitrate and phosphate alteration seen in the large 600 page thread as there won’t be any alternatives at that point. Some risk will be required to advance at that point.

 

[taricha]

A couple of comments on the prior Dino-X usage.
turn off UV while using it. Some people reported that UV sterilizers cause those algaecides to be ineffective.
Secondly, run a lot of fresh GAC after a round of treatment, and remove it while doing the treatments for 10-15 doses or whatever.

That said - fine to go a totally different direction for treatment instead of DinoX. But you need to apply fresh GAC before doing so. The stuff can hang around in the water otherwise, and thwart efforts like growing diatoms, phyto etc.

 

[leononfire]

@brandon429

I’m very seriously considering doing this method! Just to make sure I understand, is a viable procedure to

1. Remove fish and place in bucket with heater and airstone
2. Remove rockwork, scrape down algae hotspots (though there are few) and spray some hydrogen peroxide on trouble areas
3. Use a litter scooper to take out inverts and place them with fish
4. Drain all water
5. Scoop up sand, rinse for 4 hours minimum
6. Put rockwork back in
7. Put new water in
8. Put sand back in
9. Put fish/inverts back in?

(I’d be able to do steps 2-6 simultaneously with my wife so the rockwork is only in the air for about 20ish mins)

few questions though:
1. Do you put in new water, use the same water, or some combination? Is part of the rip clean a 100% water change?
2. Is there a video explaining the process (Especially the rinsing the sand part)?

 

[brandon429]

very well condensed I don't have a video though/nobody has made a short version that's quick to viewers but it would be neat to have one, really short as in 3 mins or so max (for easy complete viewing) that would just show a short segment on catching animals and the animals being in a holding bin, covered so they won't jump, then the sand rinse portion which to your question above it may or may not take 4 hours that's just an average for the big tank jobs. this process will refresh your reef that's for sure, here on this next thread is a really huge link to about 300 more rip cleans, that above was just a condensed version. in my opinion before starting the large tank job I'd read the last 5 pages or so of this thread and learn any nuances, those were some big tanks we rip cleaned

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...

www.reef2reef.com

that will show a core pattern in outcome + disassembly technique we repeat job to job

*for the sand rinse, be careful not to scratch up your tank getting it out* I've seen that unpredicted outcome happen before. once your main tank is empty, it needs to be wiped down to completely clear glass as if it's a brand new tank. hard work but thorough...reason why: we had a keeper dedicate a full day to doing a perfect rip clean. as he uptook the sand out of the emptied tank, he was leaving trails of sand mud up each side of the glass as he dug it out/scratches too at the time

then when he refilled his perfect rinse sand and rock, the whole tank was white/gray cloudy due to adhered mud on the glass, we want totally laser clean reassembly such that the tank looks totally empty/that clean. we show that on the last page of the big thread above.

*on your sand rinse, however you get it out and even if you use totally new live sand, many take this time to change out for new caribsea ocean direct sand for example, our pre rinse is exactly the same.

in sections, in a bucket out front use the hose to run through it over and over, mixing as needed, until it's simply clean.

do one little section at a time until it all stacks up pre rinsed and ready.

*take a lump in your hand of the sand as its rinsed, and be putting that into a tall clear glass of water to see if it clouds on the way down, it should be perfectly clear in the glass like snowglobe grains that rise and fall/no clouding

if the incremental testing still shows a cloud, rinse longer, rinse until it's all done. *be taking those final bucket portions that complete the rinse and hit them with one final rinse in saltwater, to evacuate the tap. if you don't have a lot of new tap water made extra you can use RO water for the final rinse. eventually all these sub-rinses wind up as one huge wet soggy pile of mega-clean sand, the whole job was for that purpose.

you can then reassemble a perfectly clean tank on top of that perfect sand and it'll be cloudless + a total skip cycle, no bottle bac is needed, we don't care about sandbed bacteria it's ok to blast them all away with the waste (and the dinos targets get blasted out too)


*for tank relocation jobs simply moving home to home and not dinos invaded, we use about half old water + half newly made water, just to save some $

but for a dino's challenge if at all possible we want all new water since we want the fewest old dinos cells re imported into the new tank. I know that's costly in big setups but we just don't have a more efficient way.

*you would only rinse rocks in saltwater that way their bacteria are maintained, the knife scraping and the peroxide sprays don't uncycle it. only the rocks bacteria mattered as carried back into the new systems to cause the skip cycle new tank. all that work was done without any ammonia testing, it's a solid prediction game we run if the rinsing is truly cloud free in the sand. any clouded reassembly lowers the safety of the process.


you want to make sure in the brand new tank that salinity and temp match, you don't have to go matching alk/pH/nitrate po4 etc, those can be upped and downed over time. initially only salinity and temp matters and the final protection step is you wouldn't run full power lighting on the new assembly, it needs to be re ramped from a lower power level as if the light was new; this prevents all coral bleaching in tank rip clean jobs. you then feed the new system well, and slowly bring light levels up over several days and indeed don't bring them back to full power if possible, too-bright lighting drives lots of these dinos invasions, it's why blackouts help on them sometimes.

 

[brandon429]

*do not feel rushed on your live rock, it is tough and won't die or mini cycle in the air a bit, be thorough vs rushed. if you want to spray or dribble saltwater over any delicate corals attached to the rocks as they sit on the counter being detailed that's fine, it'll buy time. the rock + bacteria + small animals in the rock won't die with some airtime. thats a past rumor in reefing we now know to be false, live rocks can stand some airtime and only the rarest and most delicate sponges and tunicates wouldn't like it.

saltwater rinse on the rocks, targeted dentistry on the rocks then peroxide after / rinsed to jet out detritus and invasion cells + a full tap water rinse on sand, whether it's old or new, incremental cup test + final rinse in saltwater or RO to evacuate tap water from within the grains is the entire process.

make sure held fish are covered so they won't jump out, and try and have extra saltwater handy mixed so you won't run low

**the water has less suspended dinos cells than substrates in most arrangements so if you must use some old water, due to cost and practicality, be using that initial water you draw off right at the start to catch and hold.

the water past the 50% mark starts to get suspended waste + invasion cells in it, clouding we can see, and it's too dirty it circumvents the evacuation process to reuse it in any way

 

[leononfire]

@brandon429 @taricha

Thanks for your advice. I ended up doing a rip clean on Wednesday. It seems to have worked 98%, however I noticed a tiny bit of orange on one piece of live rock yesterday (seems I missed a spot).

After the rip clean I added some live sand activator, wondermud, and amphipods from IPSA as well as live phytoplankton and copepods from Algaebarn.

My question now is if I need to manually remove this last bit of dino (and if so how to go about doing that) or if the competitors I added will keep them at bay?

I read earlier that every tank has dinos and as long as nutrients dont bottom out they wont be noticed due to competition. However, the amount of work, money, and lost lives I put into solving this dino problem has really winded me and if these dinos have a resurgence I genuinely don’t know what I’d do. In other words, Id prefer to get this problem 100% solved and be safe rather than sorry. Thanks again!

 

[brandon429]

well done. nobody on the site has a closed-book way to beat them, they're the top scourge in reefing. the honest truth I find is this: we do that to position your tank so you can indeed suction out or life out rocks/clean externally and set back clean, without clouding.

if we take the common dinos + hands off sandbed tank and begin rockwork it's upwelling waste all around + invasion cells from disturbed areas of the tank. this was a crucial mass export, I expect them to try and regroup. your lighting should be decreased during the fight, but kept blue/ much less to no whites/so that corals still grow but I find light intensity stasis changes to be a big prevention helper


the next up is UV light, installed in the clean condition not the invaded condition. if that's too $ or if the tank is a nano where you can just rip clean it again then there's no problem in repeating, you can see they're refreshing and oxygenating to reef tanks vs harmful.

you can now feed your tank at the same rate or even a bit more: there's open space for usage now. in the pre rip clean condition, most tanks are used up and have no more room for input / any extra feed fuels the invasion.

lastly, you robbed communal support for the cells. they'll have some potentiation left to regroup, fight them until you don't have to by some lucky preventative arrangement. allow no remass on the front lines for the win

UV will not zap all the pods out of your tank it'll zap waterborne transmission of target cells and a few pods but not enough to matter. if you can't use uv, then just topically guide out any remaining growths via common siphon water changes/allow no mass / and that repeat work won't strip out all the pods you added.


nice multi pronged attempt there, that's rare resolve man.

 

[leononfire]

well done. nobody on the site has a closed-book way to beat them, they're the top scourge in reefing. the honest truth I find is this: we do that to position your tank so you can indeed suction out or life out rocks/clean externally and set back clean, without clouding.

if we take the common dinos + hands off sandbed tank and begin rockwork it's upwelling waste all around + invasion cells from disturbed areas of the tank. this was a crucial mass export, I expect them to try and regroup. your lighting should be decreased during the fight, but kept blue/ much less to no whites/so that corals still grow but I find light intensity stasis changes to be a big prevention helper


the next up is UV light, installed in the clean condition not the invaded condition. if that's too $ or if the tank is a nano where you can just rip clean it again then there's no problem in repeating, you can see they're refreshing and oxygenating to reef tanks vs harmful.

you can now feed your tank at the same rate or even a bit more: there's open space for usage now. in the pre rip clean condition, most tanks are used up and have no more room for input / any extra feed fuels the invasion.

lastly, you robbed communal support for the cells. they'll have some potentiation left to regroup, fight them until you don't have to by some lucky preventative arrangement. allow no remass on the front lines for the win

UV will not zap all the pods out of your tank it'll zap waterborne transmission of target cells and a few pods but not enough to matter. if you can't use uv, then just topically guide out any remaining growths via common siphon water changes/allow no mass / and that repeat work won't strip out all the pods you added.


nice multi pronged attempt there, that's rare resolve man.

Thanks, that means a lot especially from someone as experienced as you!

I do have a UV sterilizer (a cheaper one I got off Amazon) that I was using before. I’ll reinstall that and change the lighting so its just blues. I have the lighting on the acclimation setting so its already lower intensity, but completely forgot to change the color scheme lol. Since the dinos were only in one spot (at least as of yesterday) I might just pull out that rock and do another round of spraying/peroxide. Also will increase feedings to ensure nitrates and phosphates dont bottom out and kill the competitors.

I honestly wish the rip clean method was more widely talked about because this was more effective than the dinox, and I feel like if I did this I wouldn’t have lost my shrimp and goby, and my Torch wouldnt be on the brink of death. As ggNoRe said I don’t think it was directly dinox, but either the dinos releasing toxins upon death or the rise of pollutants from a month without water changes (both of which could be avoided by a rip clean). This method removed 99+% of dinos in a natural manner that simultaneously cleaned the tank. Definitely a lot of work but, like you mentioned, is one that shows results same day.

My only recommendation would be making a video and/or specific step-by-step guide as I felt like I had to jump between multiple threads to find out the exact procedure. Specifically for me, I had trouble finding out how to rinse the sand. At first I was filling my sand bucket, stirring it with a plastic spoon, dumping the water, and repeating. However after about 45 mins I was getting exhausted and figured that if I (a semi active 23 year old) was getting tired there’s no way the correct procedure prescribes this for four hours. I think I finally found a comment in a linked thread on your main post where someone said he stuck a hose at the bottom of the sand bucket and left it there, so I did that until it passed the cup test. Part of the misunderstanding is likely me being a new reefer, but I also think with good instructions this could be a go-to treatment for beginners as it doesnt require precise dosing calculations, provides instant results, and can even help beginners fix mistakes! I’d be more than willing to write up what I did and PM it to you, but I’m sure there are way more experienced people that have done rip cleans many times over haha.

Again I can’t thank you enough for helping me save my tank!

 

[brandon429]

hey this is so valuable, I will go edit the top of my first post in the sand rinse thread/really that's great input. volume edges out the specific actions we need to see right up front for best efficiency thank you so much for the feedback