High pH

[Matpat]

About two months ago, my wife mistakenly added 5 gallons of saturated Kalkwasser directly to the aquarium, liquid as well as the remaining slurry, since I was gone and the return pump was sucking air & freaking out the fish.

Prior to this I was using a low strength solution (1tbsp per 5 gallons) of Kalk to my ATO going through about 15 gallons of top off solution per week.

I’ve since stopped adding Kalk to my ATO water hoping the pH & Alk would drop then stabilize. The Alk was 10.2 prior to this Kalk fiasco. It’s now 11.4

Within the last month, the pH has been high 8.6+ with the highest reading of 8.71. I wasn’t concerned with the rising pH until I starting having polyp bailout on several euphyllia as well as a Duncan.

All below values are tested with Hanna checkers except magnesium (Aquaforest) or calibrated Hanna pH & salinity meters:

Alk-11.4
Ca-443
Mg-1470
NO3-17
PO4-0.02
Salinity-1.025

I’ve been adding 60ml acetic acid three times per day (9am, 3pm, & 9pm) but when I stop for a day, the pH rises back up to mid 8.6 again.

Tank is a Cade 1800, 171g, 35g sump volume, two Radion XR30s, no skimmer but a large refugium full of Chaeto & Pom Pom with a Kessil H80 running opposite the tank lighting schedule. Tank Lights are on 12 hours a day with a 2hr ramp up & 2hr ramp down. About a dozen small fish, mostly LPS & softies so minimal biological load. I have the Cade net top and pretty good surface aeration with the wave makers and return pump.

The refugium keeps up with waste too well (I’ve nearly bottomed out NO3 & PO4 several times but add food grade KNO3 & KH2PO4 when needed) and I’m debating cutting back on the fuge lighting so I can stop dosing the KNO3 & KH2PO4.

Do I continue dosing the acetic acid or should I start aeration to lower the pH? I suppose I could do a water change. I’m using Brightwell’s Neo Marine which should help lower the Alk & pH a bit or should I not worry about the pH & polyp bailout?

I’m mostly concerned with the polyp bailout at this point.

 

[fushi]

About two months ago, my wife mistakenly added 5 gallons of saturated Kalkwasser directly to the aquarium, liquid as well as the remaining slurry, since I was gone and the return pump was sucking air & freaking out the fish.

Prior to this I was using a low strength solution (1tbsp per 5 gallons) of Kalk to my ATO going through about 15 gallons of top off solution per week.

I’ve since stopped adding Kalk to my ATO water hoping the pH & Alk would drop then stabilize. The Alk was 10.2 prior to this Kalk fiasco. It’s now 11.4

Within the last month, the pH has been high 8.6+ with the highest reading of 8.71. I wasn’t concerned with the rising pH until I starting having polyp bailout on several euphyllia as well as a Duncan.

All below values are tested with Hanna checkers except magnesium (Aquaforest) or calibrated Hanna pH & salinity meters:

Alk-11.4
Ca-443
Mg-1470
NO3-17
PO4-0.02
Salinity-1.025

I’ve been adding 60ml acetic acid three times per day (9am, 3pm, & 9pm) but when I stop for a day, the pH rises back up to mid 8.6 again.

Tank is a Cade 1800, 171g, 35g sump volume, two Radion XR30s, no skimmer but a large refugium full of Chaeto & Pom Pom with a Kessil H80 running opposite the tank lighting schedule. Tank Lights are on 12 hours a day with a 2hr ramp up & 2hr ramp down. About a dozen small fish, mostly LPS & softies so minimal biological load. I have the Cade net top and pretty good surface aeration with the wave makers and return pump.

The refugium keeps up with waste too well (I’ve nearly bottomed out NO3 & PO4 several times but add food grade KNO3 & KH2PO4 when needed) and I’m debating cutting back on the fuge lighting so I can stop dosing the KNO3 & KH2PO4.

Do I continue dosing the acetic acid or should I start aeration to lower the pH? I suppose I could do a water change. I’m using Brightwell’s Neo Marine which should help lower the Alk & pH a bit or should I not worry about the pH & polyp bailout?

I’m mostly concerned with the polyp bailout at this point.

Bailout is hard to reverse once it has started, my guess would be the bailout was caused by the mix of all your different parameter swings, the rise and quick fall of salinity, dkh spike, kalk settling on polyps, etc..

I think the best thing to do is get things stable so make your adjustments slowly.
Aeration should help lower ph.
You'll probably loose the corals that have started bailing out so it is best to focus on keeping the surviving corals happy and not making drastic changes to counteract the ones that already happened. I don't think 11.4dkh is near the danger zone so take it slow. 8.6 ph is high but acid and aeration should help lower that.
So your current course of adding acid and testing should be good, just don't over shoot your ph goal.

 

[arking_mark]

Just on the numbers something isn't adding up:

Your tank CO2 level would have tobe extremely low which typically doesn't happen unless you are dosing something that raises pH.

You may want to recalibrate your pH meter or do a cup aeration test to identify issues.

 

[fushi]

I also believe you should check your probe and should have mentioned it in my previous post. My bad.
Many things could have thrown your probe out of wack like it running dry, kalk dust settling on it, the ph spike, etc.

I would check the probe before proceeding with anything else.

 

[MnFish1]

About two months ago, my wife mistakenly added 5 gallons of saturated Kalkwasser directly to the aquarium, liquid as well as the remaining slurry, since I was gone and the return pump was sucking air & freaking out the fish.

Prior to this I was using a low strength solution (1tbsp per 5 gallons) of Kalk to my ATO going through about 15 gallons of top off solution per week.

I’ve since stopped adding Kalk to my ATO water hoping the pH & Alk would drop then stabilize. The Alk was 10.2 prior to this Kalk fiasco. It’s now 11.4

Within the last month, the pH has been high 8.6+ with the highest reading of 8.71. I wasn’t concerned with the rising pH until I starting having polyp bailout on several euphyllia as well as a Duncan.

All below values are tested with Hanna checkers except magnesium (Aquaforest) or calibrated Hanna pH & salinity meters:

Alk-11.4
Ca-443
Mg-1470
NO3-17
PO4-0.02
Salinity-1.025

I’ve been adding 60ml acetic acid three times per day (9am, 3pm, & 9pm) but when I stop for a day, the pH rises back up to mid 8.6 again.

Tank is a Cade 1800, 171g, 35g sump volume, two Radion XR30s, no skimmer but a large refugium full of Chaeto & Pom Pom with a Kessil H80 running opposite the tank lighting schedule. Tank Lights are on 12 hours a day with a 2hr ramp up & 2hr ramp down. About a dozen small fish, mostly LPS & softies so minimal biological load. I have the Cade net top and pretty good surface aeration with the wave makers and return pump.

The refugium keeps up with waste too well (I’ve nearly bottomed out NO3 & PO4 several times but add food grade KNO3 & KH2PO4 when needed) and I’m debating cutting back on the fuge lighting so I can stop dosing the KNO3 & KH2PO4.

Do I continue dosing the acetic acid or should I start aeration to lower the pH? I suppose I could do a water change. I’m using Brightwell’s Neo Marine which should help lower the Alk & pH a bit or should I not worry about the pH & polyp bailout?

I’m mostly concerned with the polyp bailout at this point.

First - sorry to hear this. Second - how big was the tank that she added 5 gallons to? Third - not sure why you're adding acetic acid. (its a weak acid, is going to promote bacteria growth, and is not going to help the pH). Fourth - what was the alkalinity and pH when you started up.

In any case - and it's not really recommended usually - but hydrochloric acid very carefully dosed muriatic acid) - much diluted - there are calculators online.

My recommendation - is stop trying to 'bring it back'. A lot of the Ca and Carbonate likely precipitated already - a pH of 8.6 - though not 'great' - is not horrible. With that high of a pH - and dying things - I would check your ammonia - and make sure it isn't elevated (with a free-ammonia checker - like Seachem alert) - as at high pH - any ammonia is going to be a problem'

IMHO - water changes is the best way to go - and patience. But - best of luck - sorry I started this - and the phone rang - I'm sure you have plenty of other advice already!!

 

[MnFish1]

Just on the numbers something isn't adding up:

Your tank CO2 level would have tobe extremely low which typically doesn't happen unless you are dosing something that raises pH.

You may want to recalibrate your pH meter or do a cup aeration test to identify issues

He dosed 5 gallons of Kalkwasser?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

About two months ago, my wife mistakenly added 5 gallons of saturated Kalkwasser directly to the aquarium, liquid as well as the remaining slurry, since I was gone and the return pump was sucking air & freaking out the fish.

Prior to this I was using a low strength solution (1tbsp per 5 gallons) of Kalk to my ATO going through about 15 gallons of top off solution per week.

I’ve since stopped adding Kalk to my ATO water hoping the pH & Alk would drop then stabilize. The Alk was 10.2 prior to this Kalk fiasco. It’s now 11.4

Within the last month, the pH has been high 8.6+ with the highest reading of 8.71. I wasn’t concerned with the rising pH until I starting having polyp bailout on several euphyllia as well as a Duncan.

All below values are tested with Hanna checkers except magnesium (Aquaforest) or calibrated Hanna pH & salinity meters:

Alk-11.4
Ca-443
Mg-1470
NO3-17
PO4-0.02
Salinity-1.025

I’ve been adding 60ml acetic acid three times per day (9am, 3pm, & 9pm) but when I stop for a day, the pH rises back up to mid 8.6 again.

Tank is a Cade 1800, 171g, 35g sump volume, two Radion XR30s, no skimmer but a large refugium full of Chaeto & Pom Pom with a Kessil H80 running opposite the tank lighting schedule. Tank Lights are on 12 hours a day with a 2hr ramp up & 2hr ramp down. About a dozen small fish, mostly LPS & softies so minimal biological load. I have the Cade net top and pretty good surface aeration with the wave makers and return pump.

The refugium keeps up with waste too well (I’ve nearly bottomed out NO3 & PO4 several times but add food grade KNO3 & KH2PO4 when needed) and I’m debating cutting back on the fuge lighting so I can stop dosing the KNO3 & KH2PO4.

Do I continue dosing the acetic acid or should I start aeration to lower the pH? I suppose I could do a water change. I’m using Brightwell’s Neo Marine which should help lower the Alk & pH a bit or should I not worry about the pH & polyp bailout?

I’m mostly concerned with the polyp bailout at this point.

Is the tank white with milky suspended precipitate? Is it still?

Like this:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/rhf/index.htm

Figure 10. A reef aquarium experiencing a limewater overdose (top), with calcium carbonate particles filling the water column. The same aquarium the next day was clear (similar to the bottom picture, but taken a few days later). This is the aquarium of Joe Robertson (Reef Central member Froggy).

 

[MnFish1]

Is the tank white with milky suspended precipitate? Is it still?

Like this:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/rhf/index.htm

Figure 10. A reef aquarium experiencing a limewater overdose (top), with calcium carbonate particles filling the water column. The same aquarium the next day was clear (similar to the bottom picture, but taken a few days later). This is the aquarium of Joe Robertson (Reef Central member Froggy).

Thats a nice tank

 

[arking_mark]

He dosed 5 gallons of Kalkwasser?

2 months ago...and the dKH is only about 1dKH higher.

 

[MnFish1]

right - so define the issue - it must have precipitated right - - I mean I literally bow to you in the realm of ph All Co2 - I'm just curious - lets try to explain it

 

[MnFish1]

2 months ago...and the dKH is only about 1dKH higher.

yes. and the conclusion would be to me - most precipitated

 

[arking_mark]

yes. and the conclusion would be to me - most precipitated

I was just addressing the high pH readings.

 

[Matpat]

Thats a nice tank

Thanks for all the responses.

The tank has been up and running since March of this year. It’s a Cade 1800 with a built in 15 gallon ATO. It’s 171 gallons with a 35 gallon operational level sump, so combined 206 gallon water volume, minus rock & sand displacement.

Initial Kalk dosing started in May. I use a low dose of 1 tbsp Kalk per 5g of RO/DI to fill the 15g ATO. This needs replaced weekly. I do not dose anything else with the exception of food grade KNO3 & KH2PO4 as the Kalkwasser keeps my calcium & alkalinity in line. I have noticed a slight drop in Ca levels in the past 2 months since stopping the Kalk dosing, Specifically 468ppm about a month ago to 443 this past Saturday.

The Kalk accident occurred over two months ago or just past the tank’s 6 month set up date. According to my wife, it was definitely cloudy after the mishap, not as bad as the above pic and by the time I got home, it was nearly crystal clear again. It took nearly 6 weeks for the euphyllia & Duncan to start losing heads so maybe it’s something other than the Kalk mishap?

Ive had a Seachem ammonia monitor in the tank since day 1. After the first few weeks there hasn’t been any noticeable ammonia reading in the tank.

No probes are used in this tank. I use a Hanna 98128 pH/EC Meter calibrated weekly with 7.01 & 10.01 Hanna calibration solutions & it’s stored with Hanna pH electrode storage solution at all times. I also use a Hanna 98319 salinity meter which is also calibrated weekly with Hanna 35ppt calibration solution. Both are rinsed with RO/DI before being stored. Unless the Hanna pH meter is not accurate, I don’t believe it’s the meter.
I’m confused about the high pH and alkalinity

 

[Matpat]

Thanks for all the responses.

The tank has been up and running since March of this year. It’s a Cade 1800 with a built in 15 gallon ATO. It’s 171 gallons with a 35 gallon operational level sump, so combined 206 gallon water volume, minus rock & sand displacement.

Initial Kalk dosing started in May. I use a low dose of 1 tbsp Kalk per 5g of RO/DI to fill the 15g ATO. This needs replaced weekly. I do not dose anything else with the exception of food grade KNO3 & KH2PO4 as the Kalkwasser keeps my calcium & alkalinity in line. I have noticed a slight drop in Ca levels in the past 2 months since stopping the Kalk dosing, Specifically 468ppm about a month ago to 443 this past Saturday.

The Kalk accident occurred over two months ago or just past the tank’s 6 month set up date. According to my wife, it was definitely cloudy after the mishap, not as bad as the above pic and by the time I got home, it was nearly crystal clear again. It took nearly 6 weeks for the euphyllia & Duncan to start losing heads so maybe it’s something other than the Kalk mishap?

Ive had a Seachem ammonia monitor in the tank since day 1. After the first few weeks there hasn’t been any noticeable ammonia reading in the tank.

No probes are used in this tank. I use a Hanna 98128 pH/EC Meter calibrated weekly with 7.01 & 10.01 Hanna calibration solutions & it’s stored with Hanna pH electrode storage solution at all times. I also use a Hanna 98319 salinity meter which is also calibrated weekly with Hanna 35ppt calibration solution. Both are rinsed with RO/DI before being stored. Unless the Hanna pH meter is not accurate, I don’t believe it’s the meter.
I’m confused about the high pH and alkalinity

To clarify, I dose KNO3 & KH2PO4 only as needed. I dose 1.5ppm KNO3 and 0.01ppm KH2PO4 daily when I notice levels starting to drop. The tank was pretty stable until the Kalk incident.

 

[MnFish1]

I was just addressing the high pH readings.

YES but seriously. - curious - what are your thoughts

 

[MnFish1]

If it was 2 months ago - you're not going to fix it now - do water changes until you get your params where you want them - and wait. Stop dosing acid. Stop doing anything IMHO - except water changes

 

[arking_mark]

right - so define the issue - it must have precipitated right - - I mean I literally bow to you in the realm of ph All Co2 - I'm just curious - lets try to explain it

If we want to look at effects of dosing 5 gallons of rodi water with 5 tblsp of kalkwasser to a 200gal tank, we'll make the assumption that all the kalk was dosed to the tank.

5 tblsp will saturate 7.5 gallons of rodi and spike the tank by about 4.3dKH and take the dKH to 14.5dKH.

The pH of kalkwasser is 12.4 and adding that to about 200gal of 8.2 pH tank water would jump it to about 11.2.

@Randy Holmes-Farley can correct my chemistry.

...but my bet is that the tank never saw the full impact of the dosing as a precipitation event would occur and much of the dose would just be CaCO3...which would cloud the tank and act as flocculent...leaving the tank cleaner than it previously was.

 

[Matpat]

If we want to look at effects of dosing 5 gallons of rodi water with 5 tblsp of kalkwasser to a 200gal tank, we'll make the assumption that all the kalk was dosed to the tank.

5 tblsp will saturate 7.5 gallons of rodi and spike the tank by about 4.3dKH and take the dKH to 14.5dKH.

The pH of kalkwasser is 12.4 and adding that to about 200gal of 8.2 pH tank water would jump it to about 11.2.

Are the effects when adding 1tbsp of Kalkwasser to 5g of RO/DI to a 200g tank, the same as your example?

I’m guessing that amount of Kalkwasser would have a much less pronounced effect on the tank than the example above?

Is the ~1dkh jump in alk and 0.2-0.3 jump in pH more in line for my case?

My chemistry is pretty weak but I understand the reactions are not always linear.

Im just trying to understand and plan to correct things as slowly as possible.

 

[Matpat]

The Kalk solution (1tbsp in 5g RO/DI) was indeed dosed directly into the tank. My wife did not realize she needed to add it to the ATO. She knows better now

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The pH of kalkwasser is 12.4 and adding that to about 200gal of 8.2 pH tank water would jump it to about 11.2.

I don't think the final pH is able to be calculated, at least not easily. Precipitation of magnesium hydroxide and calcium carbonate greatly limits the pH rise in this scenario. I doubt it got to pH 10.