HLLE and carbon dust removal.

[Darkrooster]

Someone suggested I try posting this topic in this forum so here is my question…

HLLE!
If carbon dust IS the source problem causing HLLE in my two tangs, that dust must be all through the sand and rock work building up over time to damaging levels. What is the best way to try to remove that ASAP over the next few water changes without aggravating the symptoms by creating a dust storm? Just keep vacuuming the gravel? What about the rockwork?
Also powerphos is dusty but it makes no mention of soaking it first could that be a contributing factor?
I use Fauna Marin Carb L. I rinse it then soak it 24 hours. Rinse it again then put it in a Torq reactor low flow so it doesn’t tumble. It is followed by a dense Refugium and a sponge so I’m not sure how much dust has accumulated at this point. But I recently blew off all my rocks got a gyre going so perhaps I have lifted all the carbon dust into the water column now? I have a yellow and purple tang both starting HLLE symptoms and want to reverse it as fast as possible obviously.
Parameters are pretty good I feed quality food.
Had my hand in tank for hours setting up euphyllia gardens this week no shocks. Have put a ground probe in just Incase because I had one on hand but I have no available wall outlet so it’s just in a power bar so really there is no where for it to ground so not sure it’s doing anything but just in case I tossed it in.
I feed a sheet of nori daily alternating selcon and vitamins each day
I do regular water changes FAUNA Marin salt
Tank 2 years
All fish were QT in copper. Purple tang a year and a half ago and the yellow 6 months ago.
Newest addition was a melanarus 4 months ago. No recent fish deaths in last 6 months or more.
So my guess is it has to be the carbon… I think?! I really don’t know. I have tried to be preventative for everything I can...

Nitrate 20
Phos 0.6
Sal 1.025
Cal 420
Mag 1285
Alk 8.4
PH 8.1
Temp 77.2

Skimmer
Reefmat
Refugium
Torq reactor carbon and powerphos
Uv sterilizer

Not sure what else is a big HLLE trigger…

Thanks guys

 

[00W]

I have never heard of carbon dust settling on things in the tank,especially the way you are rinsing and using it but I guess that could be possible??
You might have better luck running with this concept in the reef chemistry forum. I know both Randy and Jay have lots of experience with carbon.
Carbon has been linked to HLLE but it's only certain types I forget which but research on R2R will bring that up.
I know HLLE can sometimes fix itself with excellent nutrition and water quality.
I've never heard of powerphos.
I don't run carbon or GFO or anything but a scrubber and skimmer.
I think if you are really wanting a step in the right direction stop using these products all together and maybe you'll have a little peace of mind.
Best of luck.
Take care of those fish as you have been.
Pictures are good too.
Welcome to the club!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Someone suggested I try posting this topic in this forum so here is my question…

HLLE!
If carbon dust IS the source problem causing HLLE in my two tangs, that dust must be all through the sand and rock work building up over time to damaging levels. What is the best way to try to remove that ASAP over the next few water changes without aggravating the symptoms by creating a dust storm? Just keep vacuuming the gravel? What about the rockwork?
Also powerphos is dusty but it makes no mention of soaking it first could that be a contributing factor?
I use Fauna Marin Carb L. I rinse it then soak it 24 hours. Rinse it again then put it in a Torq reactor low flow so it doesn’t tumble. It is followed by a dense Refugium and a sponge so I’m not sure how much dust has accumulated at this point. But I recently blew off all my rocks got a gyre going so perhaps I have lifted all the carbon dust into the water column now? I have a yellow and purple tang both starting HLLE symptoms and want to reverse it as fast as possible obviously.
Parameters are pretty good I feed quality food.
Had my hand in tank for hours setting up euphyllia gardens this week no shocks. Have put a ground probe in just Incase because I had one on hand but I have no available wall outlet so it’s just in a power bar so really there is no where for it to ground so not sure it’s doing anything but just in case I tossed it in.
I feed a sheet of nori daily alternating selcon and vitamins each day
I do regular water changes FAUNA Marin salt
Tank 2 years
All fish were QT in copper. Purple tang a year and a half ago and the yellow 6 months ago.
Newest addition was a melanarus 4 months ago. No recent fish deaths in last 6 months or more.
So my guess is it has to be the carbon… I think?! I really don’t know. I have tried to be preventative for everything I can...

Nitrate 20
Phos 0.6
Sal 1.025
Cal 420
Mag 1285
Alk 8.4
PH 8.1
Temp 77.2

Skimmer
Reefmat
Refugium
Torq reactor carbon and powerphos
Uv sterilizer

Not sure what else is a big HLLE trigger…

Thanks guys

Have you seen the write up for my study?

Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE)

This article discusses studies performed regarding head and lateral line erosion in captive fishes. Specifically, carbon use and nutrition as they relate to this syndrome.

www.reef2reef.com

What led up to that was many years of seeing some relation to carbon dust and HLLE. I had actually stopped using carbon at my facility about 10 years prior to the study since I had a bad feeling about it. The only carbon we used was in reef tanks with lots of protein skimming (to remove the carbon fines) and then, rinsing the pelleted carbon well and just hanging it in bags in the sump, not in reactors (it still works like that, just not as fast).

One issue with carbon fines removal is that the HLLE does not always stop right away, and then, the lesions often don't heal.

Getting all of the fines out is tricky. We had one system that would cause HLLE in fish very quickly. I asked my staff to change all the water and filter media. The tank continued to cause HLLE. Upon close examination, there was a tiny "drift" of carbon fines left in the sump. Once we removed that, the system improved.

Jay

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If carbon dust IS the source problem causing HLLE in my two tangs, that dust must be all through the sand and rock work building up over time to damaging levels.

I would challenge that premise. There are many ways that particulates are changed, inactivated, and removed from reef tanks. We create and/or dose lots of different particles that do not just keep accumulating.

I also think it is evident that high quality acid washed GAC does not contribute to HLLE, at least not to the same extent. Something such as ROX 0.8 does not seem to cause issues. I recommend using only acid washed GAC in a reef system.

That said, it's certainly a worthwhile discussion to talk about how GAC particles are added, removed, or inactivated, and whether and in what forms and/or sizes they may contribute to HLLE.

Skimming is certainly one way that particulates are known to be exported.

Without knowing what sizes might contribute most to HLLE, and what sizes are actually added by unwashed GAC, it is hard to know if any mechanical filtration schemes will help, but my guess is they are too small to allow useful filtration methods without rapidly clogging with all sorts of other particles.

i expect that many fine GAC particles become inactivated by becoming part and parcel of larger globs of detritus and biofilms, and hence are not getting to fish any longer. Those globs can settle out, or be removed in various ways.

IMO, it is not understand how and why GAC particles may contribute to HLLE, and thus it is not known what specific attributes are important. For example, is fresh GAC active? Is organic coated GAC active? What about bacteria coated GAC? it is possible these processes inactive GAC particles from causing HLLE simply by being in the tank for a while.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Getting all of the fines out is tricky. We had one system that would cause HLLE in fish very quickly. I asked my staff to change all the water and filter media. The tank continued to cause HLLE. Upon close examination, there was a tiny "drift" of carbon fines left in the sump. Once we removed that, the system improved.

Do you recall what sort of GAC you were using?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Do you recall what sort of GAC you were using?

Yes - it was all lignite carbon, most likely imported from Indonesia. "False economy" as they say, I would buy bulk carbon to save money. They use pelletized carbon now.....

Jay

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks, Jay.

 

[Darkrooster]

Do you recall what sort of GAC you were using?

I use Fauna Marin Carb-L
I rinse it. Then soak it 24 hours. Then rinse it and place it in a Torq reactor very low flow so it doesn’t tumble at all.

 

[Darkrooster]

I use Fauna Marin Carb-L
I rinse it. Then soak it 24 hours. Then rinse it and place it in a Torq reactor very low flow so it doesn’t tumble at all.

Sorry I realized that was to Jay
Not me still learning how to get around R2R!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sorry I realized that was to Jay
Not me still learning how to get around R2R!

Not a problem. Thanks for starting the thread!

 

[Darkrooster]

Have you seen the write up for my study?

Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE)

This article discusses studies performed regarding head and lateral line erosion in captive fishes. Specifically, carbon use and nutrition as they relate to this syndrome.

www.reef2reef.com

What led up to that was many years of seeing some relation to carbon dust and HLLE. I had actually stopped using carbon at my facility about 10 years prior to the study since I had a bad feeling about it. The only carbon we used was in reef tanks with lots of protein skimming (to remove the carbon fines) and then, rinsing the pelleted carbon well and just hanging it in bags in the sump, not in reactors (it still works like that, just not as fast).

One issue with carbon fines removal is that the HLLE does not always stop right away, and then, the lesions often don't heal.

Getting all of the fines out is tricky. We had one system that would cause HLLE in fish very quickly. I asked my staff to change all the water and filter media. The tank continued to cause HLLE. Upon close examination, there was a tiny "drift" of carbon fines left in the sump. Once we removed that, the system improved.

Jay

Yes it was partially that article that lead me to post. I am not convinced it is carbon dust causing my HLLE but obviously it’s a possibility. since I seem to be doing more rinsing and soaking then many others that have run it for years and had no problems. But since I don’t know I will do everything even though I think I was doing most already. I guess my thoughts are if you can put it in you can take it out. Not to counter your experiences for your tank obviously you know what you observed there. I do think it maybe hard to do because it is so fine. But maybe ignorantly think that I haven’t used it frequently or for 10 years or cheap products etc etc why would my tank be so much more sensitive then others who are not as cautious as I am?
And if the particles are that fine they would get sucked up the Python tube when I vacuum my sand bed. So to me it seems that if I remove the source and slowly and continuously remove some particles that eventually the balance will tip and the concentration will hit a less critical level. And would things like coral snow bind with carbon to help remove from the tank?
My skimmer and reefmat must catch at least some and they run 24 hours…I just find it an interesting thought process.
I will target everything I can until it resolves I’m just hoping to learn as much as I can so I can do better by my little finned charges.

 

[Darkrooster]

Not a problem. Thanks for starting the thread!

Thanks Randy
I know there is no definitive answer to be had to this topic but I like to think through the topics as logically as I can to implement a best practices approach to good husbandry. Being a newbie I think it’s important to try to understand and learn before acting. And I love me a good discussion!

 

[Darkrooster]

I have a further question for either or both of you. Can stress be a factor in HLLE?
Would HLLE cause my Yellow to start hiding or swimming low.
I have added a sea hare which has removed all the extensive GHA so everyone has staked a territory maybe thinking food has decreased.
For past few weeks my yellow has been hiding behind the back left hand rocks. For past 6 months he swam all over tank. I thought he was being bullied by the purple but really if the purple comes to the yellow side the Yellow is up and chases him away so not acting bullied. None of the three zebrasomas have any damaged fins or tails. No sign of any physical aggression. They have always flared their fins at each other etc. but obviously something has changed the yellows behaviour. Last night he shot over to the purples side stayed about 45 min. The two mostly ignored each other but the yellow remained very close to the bottom. He is the only fish with behavioral changes over the past few weeks.
Does HLLE cause pain or discomfort?
He does seem to swim everywhere at full speed and can be a bit erratic like a dog with the zoomies. I will see if I can attach a video.
I want to know I guess if personality changes are a symptom of HLLE or is there something else going on.
He did have a pink fin and some red splotches a few weeks back but 2 LFS said it was just bruising and would be gone in 2 days and it was. I have seen the pink fin again once or twice though.

 

[Darkrooster]

Shows the yellow staying very low but zooming around

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Shows the yellow staying very low but zooming around

The YT is breathing too fast. I can't tell if it is because of disease, or if it is frightened from you filming it. Be certain that the tank has good aeration (not just circulation) and then see if its breathing slows down if it becomes calmer.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I have a further question for either or both of you. Can stress be a factor in HLLE?
Would HLLE cause my Yellow to start hiding or swimming low.
I have added a sea hare which has removed all the extensive GHA so everyone has staked a territory maybe thinking food has decreased.
For past few weeks my yellow has been hiding behind the back left hand rocks. For past 6 months he swam all over tank. I thought he was being bullied by the purple but really if the purple comes to the yellow side the Yellow is up and chases him away so not acting bullied. None of the three zebrasomas have any damaged fins or tails. No sign of any physical aggression. They have always flared their fins at each other etc. but obviously something has changed the yellows behaviour. Last night he shot over to the purples side stayed about 45 min. The two mostly ignored each other but the yellow remained very close to the bottom. He is the only fish with behavioral changes over the past few weeks.
Does HLLE cause pain or discomfort?
He does seem to swim everywhere at full speed and can be a bit erratic like a dog with the zoomies. I will see if I can attach a video.
I want to know I guess if personality changes are a symptom of HLLE or is there something else going on.
He did have a pink fin and some red splotches a few weeks back but 2 LFS said it was just bruising and would be gone in 2 days and it was. I have seen the pink fin again once or twice though.

HLLE is not directly caused by stress, and fish can live with it for years and years, so I don't think it causes pain in the fish (no way to know for sure though).

Jay

 

[littlefoxx]

In my experience (limited compared to people like Jay) HLLE doesnt appear to cause swimming changes or behavior changes in my fish. I currently have 2 HLLE rescue fish in my system. My purple is as active as any other purple and her HLLE doesnt slow her down at all. Shes boss tang in the tank.

 

[Darkrooster]

The YT is breathing too fast. I can't tell if it is because of disease, or if it is frightened from you filming it. Be certain that the tank has good aeration (not just circulation) and then see if its breathing slows down if it becomes calmer.

Jay

So add an airstone?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So add an airstone?

Yes, if the tank does not have bubbles breaking the surface or does not have a protein skimmer, then add an air stone.

Jay

 

[jda]

I have used GAC at times for 30 years. No HLLE. Coconut shell, bitumulous and pellet mostly. Wash it well, don't let it tumble and avoid Lignite if you feel bad about it. Lignite could just as easily release something that is a problematic just as much as it was dust/fine - both could get filtered. Was the dust/fine ever found in areas of the fish that were an issue during autopsy?

Does anybody know what is in ROX? A cocktail, I would guess?