Household Nitrate and Phosphate references?

[BWV]

I show zero phosphate and zero nitrate using Salifert kits.
Expiration dates are 05-2023 and 08-2023

Corals look happy, I have GHA and green algae on my gravel.
I doubt this stuff could live as well as it does with either showing zero.

Is this just "in balance" as the algae (and other life) are using it as it's made with a net sum of zero?
Is it "in the rocks" and un-testable?
Are my kits bad? (I read the instruction sheet step by step every time...)
Am I missing some knowledge? (absolutely)

So I ask (the above are kinda rhetoric.. this is my reason for typing right now...) is there any thing(s) in a typical household, that has a known value(s) that I could check my test nitrate and phosphate kits with, with some "close" expected ranges?

I'm torn between spending $140 for 35 tests of each using Hanna ULR stuff, $33 more on Salifert again(60 tests each), or $20 on something like Fauna Marin Saltwater Multi Reference Solution to see...

I am a gadget guy.. so I "want" the Hanna anyway, but I do have some common sense, so I tend to buy what I "need" when it comes to consumable items. In either case, I don't want to toss test kits if they are ok...

(I do have a bottle of NeoPhos... just thought of that.... So I do need the Nitrate reference still... but would love to hear other phosphate ideas anyway) ... (Maybe I should just get some NeoNitro too...)

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

I show zero phosphate and zero nitrate using Salifert kits.
Expiration dates are 05-2023 and 08-2023

Corals look happy, I have GHA and green algae on my gravel.
I doubt this stuff could live as well as it does with either showing zero.

Is this just "in balance" as the algae (and other life) are using it as it's made with a net sum of zero?
Is it "in the rocks" and un-testable?
Are my kits bad? (I read the instruction sheet step by step every time...)
Am I missing some knowledge? (absolutely)

So I ask (the above are kinda rhetoric.. this is my reason for typing right now...) is there any thing(s) in a typical household, that has a known value(s) that I could check my test nitrate and phosphate kits with, with some "close" expected ranges?

I'm torn between spending $140 for 35 tests of each using Hanna ULR stuff, $33 more on Salifert again(60 tests each), or $20 on something like Fauna Marin Saltwater Multi Reference Solution to see...

I am a gadget guy.. so I "want" the Hanna anyway, but I do have some common sense, so I tend to buy what I "need" when it comes to consumable items. In either case, I don't want to toss test kits if they are ok...

(I do have a bottle of NeoPhos... just thought of that.... So I do need the Nitrate reference still... but would love to hear other phosphate ideas anyway) ... (Maybe I should just get some NeoNitro too...)

Yeah have both of those neo's and dose it to a small bucket of clean new saltwater and test to see if it's in range of your test. Brightwell puts the calculations on the back. It may be as you first stated or binding in you rock before you test, I'd be adding both and checking both, thats what I do you would be surprised how adding nitrates and phosphates will reduce algae just not overnight it takes months of adding and checking and tracking nutrients.

 

[BWV]

Ordered some NeoNitro... I'll use that and the NeoPhos to test the kits, then hopefully be able to balance out the two with those if the tests are correct...

 

[sixty_reefer]

Ordered some NeoNitro... I'll use that and the NeoPhos to test the kits, then hopefully be able to balance out the two with those if the tests are correct...

you may be able to use neophos and neonitro to raise nitrates and phosphates although if you are using it to raise nutrients in a system that contains algae it may be detrimental for your end goal, neonitro is a plant fertiliser that contains organic and inorganic forms of nitrogen that are beneficial to grow algae they are good products to raise nutrients if only coral is present in a system if your tank contains pest algaes you may want to look at a product that contains less organics as calcium nitrate or sodium nitrate I would stay away from potassium nitrate as it can increase potassium that is also a plant fertiliser. For phosphates you could add sodium phosphates or neophos. Both will contain a small amount of organics although they may only be small and work in your situation the main issue you may have is with neonitro.

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

I've used both neophos and neonitro both with algae in 0-0 environment and have seen the algae eventually turn grey and die off as other algaes are allowed to survive for an extended amount of time.

 

[BWV]

My initial hope in spending the extra 9$ is to see if my test kits are ok
I'll play with that this evening if time allows.

I too am worried about putting fertilizer in with photosynthetic pests, but don't know enough to go against it, and have to assume, that as most ( from what I gathered) seem to like 5-10 N and .02 to .1 P ...and I'm at zero, that I should increase it a little, in a ratio somewhere similar... I do feel that I am always just a lumen or two away from dinos.(too bright for too long and I see them instantly) so maybe that'll push that further away.

My first goal has to be testing the tests.

I'm wondering... If I start dosing these... About the carbon side of the equation that Brightwell mentions on the bottle.

The moral so far... 13$ for NeoPhos and 9$ for NeoNitro should yield me reference solutions to check my tests, without having to find a household thing to guess with, while supplying me products I might need to use depending on the results...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’m not aware of any household things to use as a standard, and I’d be wary of putting too much weight on the exact dosing claims to verify a kit, but it should be good for working vs not working at all.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My initial hope in spending the extra 9$ is to see if my test kits are ok
I'll play with that this evening if time allows.

I took am worried about putting fertilizer in with photosynthetic pests, but don't know enough to go against it, and have to assume, that as most ( from what I gathered) seem to like 5-10 N and .02 to .1 P ...and I'm at zero, that I should increase it a little, in a ratio somewhere in there... I do feel that I am always just a lumen or two away from dinos.(too bright for too long and I see them instantly)

My first goal has to be testing the tests.

I'm wondering... If I start dosing these... About the carbon side of the equation that Brightwell mentions on the bottle.

Their statements on the web site about carbon limitation seem misguided to me and I recommend ignoring it.

 

[BWV]

I’m not aware of any household things to use as a standard, and I’d be wary of putting too much weight on the exact dosing claims to verify a kit, but it should be good for wiring vs not working at all.

Thanks!

I don't own the tools to make it precise enough for lab reference (assuming the products are made accurately), but, as you mention... I just want to see the kits show some color even remotely around where I'd expect. (Or at all...in my case).

I won't do anything fast, nor "chase" numbers, I'd just like to head in the right direction. My "ugly stage" has been very long, and I tire of my constant dino paranoia.

 

[diabolical_clownfish]

you may be able to use neophos and neonitro to raise nitrates and phosphates although if you are using it to raise nutrients in a system that contains algae it may be detrimental for your end goal, neonitro is a plant fertiliser that contains organic and inorganic forms of nitrogen that are beneficial to grow algae they are good products to raise nutrients if only coral is present in a system if your tank contains pest algaes you may want to look at a product that contains less organics as calcium nitrate or sodium nitrate I would stay away from potassium nitrate as it can increase potassium that is also a plant fertiliser. For phosphates you could add sodium phosphates or neophos. Both will contain a small amount of organics although they may only be small and work in your situation the main issue you may have is with neonitro.

I actually dose potassium nitrate and I didn't know about the fertilizer part. I do also have a hair algae problem - should I stop and switch to calcium nitrate? I can't find a source online that says potassium is a problem. Is this a generally accepted fact?

 

[sixty_reefer]

I actually dose potassium nitrate and I didn't know about the fertilizer part. I do also have a hair algae problem - should I stop and switch to calcium nitrate? I can't find a source online that says potassium is a problem. Is this a generally accepted fact?

Yes, potassium is a limiting macronutrient for algae and plants, you may find a lot of articles discussing how the NPK (nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium) fertiliser in farming affect directly algae blooms in the ocean. It’s also fairly known to planted aquariums and the main ingredient in chaetogro to aid the growth of chaeto if K becomes a limiting factor in a enclosed system.
There’s other elements that will aid the growth of pest algaes like ammonia and trace elements.
we can’t starve them by just removing macro and micro nutrients managing ammonia in a system by avoiding the nitrates and phosphates to become depleted is fairly important imo as this may affect the microbiology that becomes responsible to keep ammonia in our enclosed systems under control.
If I was going to use nutrient to reduce algae growth potassium would be the one that I would try and avoid adding to the system as nitrates and phosphates will have large impact on the microbiology more in particular heterotrophic bacteria that will be the main strains of bacteria keeping a reef tank stable.
Reduce not fully eliminate as the zooxanthellae will need this element also.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I can't find a source online that says potassium is a problem. Is this a generally accepted fact?

Most reefers are not chemists, nor should they be, which is why bad chemistry ideas sometimes get a lot of play before being outed, and is a main reason this specific forum exists.

I’ve been saying this is a bad idea as soon as it started to be used. Sodium nitrate is cheap as a food grade additive from Amazon, and is a much better idea than potassium nitrate of any purity unless you closely monitor potassium and know you need it. Stump remover is risky even if you need potassium and nitrate due to lack of purity grading.

 

[KrisReef]

Most reefers are not chemists, nor should they be, which is why bad chemistry ideas sometimes get a lot of play before being outed, and is a main reason this specific forum exists.

Thanks Randy for validating my existence on a Monday. I understand I know just enough about reef chemistry to properly use a Hanna Checker and I do record my results with my phone because my brain struggles to remember numbers and trends over time.

I'd like to add the Iron FE is also a sometimes limiting nutrient that can contribute to algae blooms but probably isn't short in the OP's system.

 

[colejr]

My initial hope in spending the extra 9$ is to see if my test kits are ok
I'll play with that this evening if time allows.

I too am worried about putting fertilizer in with photosynthetic pests, but don't know enough to go against it, and have to assume, that as most ( from what I gathered) seem to like 5-10 N and .02 to .1 P ...and I'm at zero, that I should increase it a little, in a ratio somewhere similar... I do feel that I am always just a lumen or two away from dinos.(too bright for too long and I see them instantly) so maybe that'll push that further away.

My first goal has to be testing the tests.

I'm wondering... If I start dosing these... About the carbon side of the equation that Brightwell mentions on the bottle.

The moral so far... 13$ for NeoPhos and 9$ for NeoNitro should yield me reference solutions to check my tests, without having to find a household thing to guess with, while supplying me products I might need to use depending on the results...

I am going through the exact same thin, just posted about it last week. I also am testing 0, 0 using Salifert. I had a buddy bring his water too me and could easily read .003 Phos and 5 Nitrate with his water. I am awaiting Brightwell products arriving today and will SLOWLY dose and test over many days. I have very little, but some algae in my Biocube 32 along with 13 coral colonies, but only 2 clowns. Very low bio load. .

 

[ReefGeezer]

There are a couple reasong your Salifert kits might be reading 0.
1) Salifert Phosphate does not have the resolution needed in reef conditions. It will tell you 0 when there is enough available phosphate to be an issue.
2) If you have sufficient algae in the system, it could be using all the N&P available. Your Salifert kit could be reporting the right reading because all the free nitrogen or phosphate is bound in the algae.

Sodium Nitrate and Trisodium Phosphate are easy to get on the interweb for cheap. You could use them for your test and keep them around to make solutions you might want to use later.

 

[BWV]

I am going through the exact same thin, just posted about it last week. I also am testing 0, 0 using Salifert. I had a buddy bring his water too me and could easily read .003 Phos and 5 Nitrate with his water. I am awaiting Brightwell products arriving today and will SLOWLY dose and test over many days. I have very little, but some algae in my Biocube 32 along with 13 coral colonies, but only 2 clowns. Very low bio load. .

I have a small clown and a royal gramma basslet in a Fluval 13.5 (10 gal of water...) with about 16 corals, 7 snails, 5 crabs, 1 tuxedo urchin, and a shrimp.
I'm not sure where that puts my balance of bio load. My only real exports are water changes (10%week or 20%bi-weekly), carbon(bimonthly) and filter pad (cleaned weekly, changed monthly)... no skimmer.

the above shows after a cleanup. My glass typically grows significant diatom film in about a week. My gravel gets a mat of similar and green algae, and my rocks grow GHA in little patches.

(the coral isn't bleached... I'm just bad at correcting white balance...)

Temperature - 78 pH - 8.2 Ammonia - 0 Nitrite - 0 Nitrate - 0 Phosphate - 0 Salinity - 1.0265 Alkalinity - 7.8 Calcium - 340 Magnesium - 1320

Hope to test tomorrow (no NeoNitro delivery today... )

So.. another question... If my kits are right...
Which thing do I adjust first? or... is it ok to do both products at the same time?

I just messaged Brightwell that question.. will share the answer here.

 

[BWV]

Well... that was rewarding.
The CEO of Brightwell emailed me back within hours.
That... is excellent service!

It sounds like you can very carefully adjust both at the same time.
I was advised to start very low and watch before increasing.

 

[diabolical_clownfish]

Well... that was rewarding.
The CEO of Brightwell emailed me back within hours.
That... is excellent service!

It sounds like you can very carefully adjust both at the same time.
I was advised to start very low and watch before increasing.

In dosing potassium nitrate, I recall seeing Randy respondd in another thread that one can dose to the target level directly instead of incrementally. Not sure if that applies to the Brightwell products, especially dosing multiple at the same time.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In dosing potassium nitrate, I recall seeing Randy respondd in another thread that one can dose to the target level directly instead of incrementally. Not sure if that applies to the Brightwell products, especially dosing multiple at the same time.

I’ve never seen any evidence that raising N or P from undetectable to normal target ranges needs to be done slowly.

 

[BWV]

Sounds good...
After testing the test kits, I'll do initial doses, leaning towards the light end, to see "how much really does what"..then ramp to .02 and 5 (N P in ppm) to see what that does to the desirable inhabitants and the effect on the undesired algae farm.
I'm also going to try some copepods soon too...but that's for a.different thread...